452 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

Brockololly wrote...

Do I trust BioWare to make DA3 a game I'll enjoy?

No, not really at this point. Which is a damn shame. I just don't have much faith in the people with ultimate control making the big decisions on the franchise. After DA2 I don't know that I even agree with where they want to take the franchise (or for that matter, I have no clue where they want to go since with DA2 what they claimed via words didn't match the final product), but even more importantly, I don't know that they have the wherewithal to even execute their ideas into a competent game.

Would you trust Eidos Montreal?

[Fraevar]

It depends. There's no denying that as a game DA2 was not what they said it would be. It was no chronicle of a rise to power, it was three short stories of a group of people living in Kirkwall. As for the gameplay mechanics and style it's been argued elsewhere, but I think that without the team going back to the drawing board on a lot of the mechanics, we won't really see a game that comes together like Origins.

So a "maybe" with a but.

[Monica83]

no way for me the team lost all the credibility

[alex90c]

Indoctrination wrote...

alex90c wrote...

DA2 wasn't actually a commercial failure at all. It was made at about 1/5 the cost of Origins and did pretty decent profit-wise. That's not to say I think it's a good game, just that it did quite decently in regards to Bioware making money from it.

When a game drops from full retail price to $29.99 in less than half a year after release, that's pretty much a white flag from the publisher that they're desperate to unload inventory of the game no one wants. Just saying.

The point I'm trying to make is that DA2 was made in 16 months (so as opposed to Origins' what ... five years?) and on 1/5 the budget, so yes DA2 has received a lot of hate, it hasn't sold as much as Origins' etc. etc. but DA:O itself was far more expensive to make whereas Bioware made DA2 on the cheap, so yes it made a profit.

Basically, it's like me making something for £1,000, perhaps charging £50 per copy of it and selling it to 15 people. Woohoo, I got £750 but I didn't make a profit. Or, there could be my friend who makes something for £300, charges £50 per copy and then only sells it to 10 people. My friend's product (let's call it X, and my product Y) was, for the purpose of this example was as well as being made cheaper is of a poorer quality and lets say as well he found out I was making my product quite late in its ... production ... so he wanted to rush a piece out himself and make a quick buck. Point is, in this example, product X is of a lower quality, was made for less and even sold less, but I spent far more money and made a superior product with Y, and despite that because my friend spent less money making his, he made a profit whereas I actually lost money since i wasn't able to make up the original investment.

It's pretty much the same thing with DA3 - was rushed, crap, whatever you want to call it, and has sold less than Origins and yet BIoware probably made more money out of it because it was made cheaply.

[Indoctrination]

alex90c wrote...

The point I'm trying to make is that DA2 was made in 16 months (so as opposed to Origins' what ... five years?) and on 1/5 the budget, so yes DA2 has received a lot of hate, it hasn't sold as much as Origins' etc. etc. but DA:O itself was far more expensive to make whereas Bioware made DA2 on the cheap, so yes it made a profit.

The point I'm trying to make is that DA:O sold really well and it was well over a year before they had to drop the price. DA2 is now selling at $30 which is basically allowing EA to salvage its credibility with its retailers so they can make a little money and unload all of that DA2 inventory no one wants. With DA2 at $30 after only a few months, EA is basically selling the shirt off of its back with this game.

Then there's the side profits from the games that DA2 almost certainly won't be competitive in. I bought like every DLC for Origins. How many people do think (out of the smaller group who bought the game) are going to go back to a game they're disappointed with and pay for DLC item packs and the like? Probably not very many. In fact, I would be willing to wildly speculate that item pack 2 is a desperate attempt to increse the game's profit margins.

Also, you can have a profitable game and it can still be a failure. If a game fails to meet its target sales expectations, then it can be considered a commercial failure. Do you really think that DA2 met EA's sales expectations after watcing them drop the price as fast as they could to help retailers empty their warehouses of the title?

Modifié par Indoctrination, 03 septembre 2011 - 01:03 .

[Lilunebrium]

Seriously? One of these threads again?

I'm surprised this thread has lasted seven pages, what with the OP's main goal being to give yet another sneer in BioWare's direction and gathering a large enough audience to make his ego go 'F*ck yeah!".

[jbrand2002uk]

Am i the only one thinking that these "lets bash Bioware yet again" threads is wearing very thin its old ground been covered a million times already, Origins was a "traditional" style RPG DA2 wasn't.

Having seen comments saying people wish there was consistant approach to DA games( make all of them alike in style etc) history has proven in every market the world over keeping something like the original product may well lead to the orignals customers being pleased and buying every product the company releases eventually the brand becomes stale and leads to no innovation and eventually those same dedicated customers will become bored.

One of the truest sayings in buisness is "Innovate or Die" now while many will no doubt disagree RPG's have remained practically unchanged for over 20 years and now its time to change the format before it becomes stale and dies on its feet, Bioware realised this when they made DA2 its just a shame that some people are too set in their ways to see it,As many have said when DA3 comes close to release no doubt games magazines will review the finished code. so just use some common sense read the reviews make a decision and vote with your wallet and if you buy it and are unhappy about email or call customer services and complain.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Am i the only one thinking that these "lets bash Bioware yet again" threads is wearing very thin its old ground been covered a million times already, Origins was a "traditional" style RPG DA2 wasn't.

Having seen comments saying people wish there was consistant approach to DA games( make all of them alike in style etc) history has proven in every market the world over keeping something like the original product may well lead to the orignals customers being pleased and buying every product the company releases eventually the brand becomes stale and leads to no innovation and eventually those same dedicated customers will become bored.

One of the truest sayings in buisness is "Innovate or Die" now while many will no doubt disagree RPG's have remained practically unchanged for over 20 years and now its time to change the format before it becomes stale and dies on its feet, Bioware realised this when they made DA2 its just a shame that some people are too set in their ways to see it,As many have said when DA3 comes close to release no doubt games magazines will review the finished code. so just use some common sense read the reviews make a decision and vote with your wallet and if you buy it and are unhappy about email or call customer services and complain.

While the vote with your wallet stuff is undoubtedly good advice, I would like to know - where's the innovation that people keep speaking of?

Outside of say, the dialog altering dominant personality, I don't exactly see anything innovative from Dragon Age 2...

[Salaya]

No, I don't trust them. They have made clear that DA2 was the correct way to develop the franchise. Now they tell us that they are going to get the best of both worlds -but they said similar things with DA2.

Dragon Age 3, in case they finally end up doing that (since it's not exactly official), will be some kind of hack'n slash game with that terrible art direction. Not my kind of game.

[jbrand2002uk]

@ mrcrusty

Well the graphics for 1 though not of most importance in a RPG though i did use the high tex pack with DX11 mode and everything cranked up to the max, the combat was improved vastly i found Origins combat was almost like an afterthought is was slow clunky and lacked fluidity,
and the skill tree in Origins was way too complex resulting in you have to waste hard earned XP and abillity points on areas you didnt want or need in order to get the abillity you wanted.

And the main 2 flaws i found with Origins was that despite all the patches, updates and DLC the game was incredibly Bug ridden and crashed constantly despite that i was running it on what was a top of the line Alienware system.
But the main killer for me was the silent protagonist, now while that may enable the player to feel like he/she is that actual character witty remarks sound som much better when voiced by an actor/actress than done in your head because all the pauses etc are time right.(listen to Xennon the antiquarian in the Black Emporium to see what i mean and he was voiced by the same actor that did Hawke's voice).

I have also noticed over the years the stigma attached to RPG players and the general public assumption that RPG's are for nerds Origins and the games it was based on BG and also dungeons and dragons( the pen and paper game) are largely to blame for this perception.
I would guess the main reason for why so many DAO fans were disalusioned and felt betrayed with DA2 was the massive shift in style no doubt brought about By EA's direction as EA's has always done games that cross Genre's rather than stick doggedly to 1 DA2 was more of a RPG/action hybrid a la GTA 3/4 with swords instead of guns.

Also these days RPG's are no longer the preserve of PC gamers exclusively and in this multi platform generation undeniably most publishers like EA have become biased towards the ever increasing console market and there is no appetite in that sector for games where 1 playthrough can take upwards of 200+hrs most console players think a 60hr campaign is long and a 30hr campaign is about the average so alas it seems games in general are going the way of DA2 now while i enjoyed DA2 obviously its not to everyone tastes.

So regardless of which way it goes no doubt this online forum war will erupt again in a couple of years time if DA3 comes out unless fans of games like DAO and BG adapt their expectations which is unlikely as most are too set in their ways.
no doubt i'll get alot of backlash on here for saying that but it had to be said.
Peace everyone and try not to blow a gasket its not a pretty sight

Modifié par jbrand2002uk, 03 septembre 2011 - 02:00 .

[Liaren]

I wouldn't trust any other company to do it than BioWare.

Modifié par Liaren, 03 septembre 2011 - 02:12 .

[jbrand2002uk]

I second that Liaren no knows the DA Universe better than the people who created it and as most of them worked on both Origins an DA2 yeah i trust them to do a good job on DA3 even if narking off fans in one or both camps is an inevitability

[Gunderic]

Zanallen wrote...

Anomaly- wrote...

We're all aware that a development team consists of more than 1 person. However, pretty much every criticism of DA2 can be traced back to design decisions, or limited development cycle. No one was blaming random programmers or artists, because the issues weren't that these aspects were buggy or glitchy, the issues were with the direction they took. Obviously, these were design decisions that came from higher up. Besides, when one guy actually leaves because he feels so opposed to the new design direction, that's pretty telling.

As for the dev cycle, blaming EA seems to be par for the course.

Except the guy that I was quoting wants Bioware to fire the team who made DA2 or at least take the production of DA3 away from them. The same team that consists of the vast majority of people who made Origins.

And Brent Knowles didn't quit Bioware because of DA2. He decided he didn't want to be lead on DA2, realized that there were no other projects that he could be lead on since bioware wasn't going to bump the lead position from TOR or ME for him and then left to work on his writing.

So he quit because of DA 2? Got it, thanks.

[Gunderic]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Anomaly- wrote...
And it shows. Honestly, even though that figure is likely inaccurate, and even though you may be right about the net gain, the very fact that so much more money and effort went into Origins is the point that I continue to make. It was undeniably the superior product, and it shows. That's all I was every really trying to illustrate. Why people argue that, then claim to be annoyed when presented with the same facts baffles me a bit. Given that fact, and your argument for net gain, it's not hard to see why people accuse Bioware of making a 'quick buck' with
DA2.

There's a pretty big difference in what people want though. When I see DA2, I see the effects of a shortened dev cycle. But I also see that they did take a lot of things to heart from DAO, listened to feedback, and attempted to improve on things. Whether they were successful is up to interpretation. I think that they were successful in some regards (friendship/rivalry, talent trees and upgrades, combat pacing), and were unsuccessful in others (companion customization, badly hidden wave spawning, encounter design). Origins was a superior product, I will agree. But I think that Origins was a superior product because they had sufficient time to polish it, and not because it made better design decisions than DA2.

But part of that is what the feedback asks for. The very topic of this thread is already loaded - asking if anyone trusts Bioware to create DA3 is starting the entire thread in a negative light. There's a lot of opinion injected already, and it's pretty clear that the sort of discussion here won't really be constructive. Saying that the game was god-awful is not constructive. Expressing disbelief that the DA2 designers could continue to be trusted with the IP is not constructive. The best we can hope for in this thread is a war of opinions, and that's not constructive.

We can argue until we're blue in the face, but in all honesty, Bioware's going to continue making the games they want to make until they run out of funding. You can offer your opinion on it, but let's be clear here - unless you're talking about "What I liked about this game" and "What I didn't like about this game" in specific, they probably aren't going to listen too carefully.

Is Gaider that quote-worthy? 

And no, what BioWare really does is, they make the game EA wants them to make.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I don't really know at this point. DA2 was a great disappointment, and I've lost interest in ME3 from the hype so far. Both would imply a general direction for the company that I'm not sure I'm really feeling.

However, they also seem to at least have been at least have been taking note of the criticsms and negative reviews, as well as complaints on where they went wrong. And they seem to be talking about making DA3 a combination of the best of DAO and DA2. So that sounds promising. And I am willing to give Bioware the benefit of the doubt, for now, that they can create DA3 to be better than origins or DA2 were.

I at least hope with DA3, they will take considerable time and care to actually write and develop a game that will be mature, epic, and interesting.

[jbrand2002uk]

Well not to state the obvious Gunderic but when EA's paying the bills you do as your told lol

[LobselVith8]

I haven't seen anything to make me think Dragon Age 3 will be any better than Dragon Age 2. Legacy provided us with a reactive Hawke who, once again, let the dangerous person go, and choices didn't matter despite Laidlaw's "Thank You" thread and the developers claiming that the DLC was taking so long to address all the problems people had with Dragon Age 2. I'm still waiting for DLC to allow Hawke to be intelligent and proactive, and I don't even think that is going to happen.

[DrFumb1ezX]

Hold up, because Bioware, the creator of ME, DA:O, Baldur's Gate, NWN, and SW:KOTOR, made one "bad" game, it means that, all of a sudden, they've lost your trust? How do you f***ing reconcile that?
I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, because every company hits a snag every once and a while.

[DrFumb1ezX]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I haven't seen anything to make me think Dragon Age 3 will be any better than Dragon Age 2. Legacy provided us with a reactive Hawke who, once again, let the dangerous person go, and choices didn't matter despite Laidlaw's "Thank You" thread and the developers claiming that the DLC was taking so long to address all the problems people had with Dragon Age 2. I'm still waiting for DLC to allow Hawke to be intelligent and proactive, and I don't even think that is going to happen.

Being proactive means knowing, or having suspicions of what may happen next. Instead of looking from third person, put yourself in Hawke's shoes. Could you really have predicted all that **** was gonna go down? Becuase if you could, you're psychic. 

[LobselVith8]

Being proactive means not doing absolutely nothing for years despite what's accomplished at the end of the Deep Roads venture. Hawke does nothing when he finds Quentin's note, he doesn't do anything about the dictatorship for three years, and he lets dangerous people go despite knowing they are dangerous. The end of "Shepherding Wolves" and "Legacy" makes Hawke seem incompetent, in my humble opinion. You're welcome to disagree, soccerchick, but Hawke doesn't need to be psychic, he simply doesn't need to be lazy.

[jbrand2002uk]

I agree soccerchick Origins fans are not doing themselves any favours by whinging for months on end about DA2 after having 1 great RPG after another for over a decade and their personal attacks and insults directed at staff who created Origins as well as DA2 is going way too far,

Ok so they Disagree with the direction DA2 went in, lodge a complaint, 1 complaint then drop it and move on rather than the tirade of endless whinging and moaning yes they have a right to complain but they are sounding like a broken record now some 6 months on.

just sit back relax calm down let Bioware do what they do best wait till the Reviews of the finished DA3 code are published make a decision and vote with your wallet

[casadechrisso]

Liaren wrote...

I wouldn't trust any other company to do it than BioWare.

I'd actually trust the old sequel-slaves Obsidian much more on the writing part nowadays (sadly not on the technical side). Bioware hasn't come up with anything new and fresh anymore for a long time (at least that's my opinion), they have their successful formula and all games/stories feel pretty much the same to me, be it DA2 or Mass Effect. DA2 wasn't the first game that disappointed me too, it was ME2, but I know most people loved it.
DA3 will of course be a Bioware game and it might even do things better than DA2 after all the feedback, but the core issues I have with it lay too deep and the damage is done (as an example, once they went for the dialogue wheel they just can't go back anymore). I expect DA3 to be an okay game, better than DA2 but no masterpiece.

[jbrand2002uk]

casadechrisso wrote...

Liaren wrote...

I wouldn't trust any other company to do it than BioWare.

I'd actually trust the old sequel-slaves Obsidian much more on the writing part nowadays (sadly not on the technical side). Bioware hasn't come up with anything new and fresh anymore for a long time (at least that's my opinion), they have their successful formula and all games/stories feel pretty much the same to me, be it DA2 or Mass Effect. DA2 wasn't the first game that disappointed me too, it was ME2, but I know most people loved it.
DA3 will of course be a Bioware game and it might even do things better than DA2 after all the feedback, but the core issues I have with it lay too deep and the damage is done (as an example, once they went for the dialogue wheel they just can't go back anymore). I expect DA3 to be an okay game, better than DA2 but no masterpiece.

Unfortunatly the biggest cause for the "lack of freshness" is the core fans who are completely and utterly resistant to any changes whatsoever being made to their beloved game which in this case is DAO now while most fans of both DA games are willing to accept some compromise their is a hardcore group in both camps though the most being in the Origins camp due to bigger sales that point blank refuses to accept any change and are usually the first in the forums to resort to asking for the whole Dev team to be fired.

Since its highly doubtful that these groups attitudes and self righteousness will ever change its likely that every RPG from here onwards will continue to not be as good as they could have been 

[Liaren]

casadechrisso wrote...

Liaren wrote...

I wouldn't trust any other company to do it than BioWare.

I'd actually trust the old sequel-slaves Obsidian much more on the writing part nowadays (sadly not on the technical side). Bioware hasn't come up with anything new and fresh anymore for a long time (at least that's my opinion), they have their successful formula and all games/stories feel pretty much the same to me, be it DA2 or Mass Effect. DA2 wasn't the first game that disappointed me too, it was ME2, but I know most people loved it.
DA3 will of course be a Bioware game and it might even do things better than DA2 after all the feedback, but the core issues I have with it lay too deep and the damage is done (as an example, once they went for the dialogue wheel they just can't go back anymore). I expect DA3 to be an okay game, better than DA2 but no masterpiece.

I seriously don't get the DA2 hate/dissapointment. All threads I see here basically end up in people saying that DA2 sucks. Sure, it had it's flaws, each game has, but people are treating it like it's an abomination.

[jbrand2002uk]

Well Liaren I happen to be 1 of the few that that that despite the odd few niggles with DA2 that it was a vastly better game than Origins and it injected a fresh perspective on a genre that has been devoid of innovation and had become stale but until the core fans of all RPG's stop blowing a gasket evrytime a change is made to the genre big or small i doubt the genre will change ever