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[mungbean]

Scandinavian elves are human sized and completely different from British/French elves, which are oversized pixies.

Tolkien clearly used Scandinavian elves as his base, although he brilliantly fictionalises their very complicated nature in a really useful way.

There are a number of different kinds of elves depending which cultural rendition, they all have their root in celtic faerie, or "lurkers under the mounds" it's a term which means ancestral spirit, it refers to their deities and other powerful figures such as valkyrie.

Germanic mythology is loosely derivative, the faerie became elves, roughly demigods who inhabit adjacent dimensions which intersect with our world in various random locations.
Time in the elves home land, Alfheim runs at only 1 year for every ten so they are many centuries old on average and very skilled in magic.

Sometimes they wander incognito as a traveller, perhaps a bard or a woodsman and are normal looking but there is always some small thing about them which is clearly supernatural, a flash in their eyes, or pointed ears, or some other small feature. They are powerful wizards and craft powerful magical artefacts, but it is generally easier to get dwarves to make those for you even if you are a god. Elves are very aloof, dwarves don't discriminate in trade and both are related subspecies (for the purposes of magical abilities).
Loki wound up having to use the dwarves to make the Aesir godly weapons (Thor's hammer, Odin's spear, etc.), because the elves refused to deal with him.

My guess is that Toril elves follow the Tolkien line and reflect Scandinavian elves. They're human sized but quite clearly intensely magical in nature, just that it's all beneath the surface.
I think Gary Gygax saw elves more along the west European line, oversized pixies with Tolkien themes (Grey elves after Elron, High elves after Legolas), where in D&D terms a traditional Scandinavian elf is closest to an outsider, they're variously aasimar, half celestials and more powerful extraplanar beings. If they lose alignment (turn non-good) they change appearance, dwarf if neutral and a monster if evil (this is where Tolkien obviously drew the orcish origin from).

Drow are meant to be little even on Toril but, they're the exception.

[Skadison]

Shaughn78 wrote...

This is a very easily corrected problem.

All scaling of playable races is done in the appearance.2da. All the models are the same size. Currently humans have a scale of 1.0 and elves 0.9. If the human appearance was changed to 0.9 then both elves and humans would be the same size and humans would no longer be 6'6" to 6'10".

Yea but even if you change your height all the other elfs in the game are still short..

mungbean wrote...

Scandinavian elves are human sized and completely different from British/French elves, which are oversized pixies.

They're actually alot more complicated than that. They are actually a panthoen of gods in their own right.  Thor's wife is an elf (Sif) and he has a step son that is an elf (Ullr).  There are also other gods that are either full blood elf (Idunn) or mixed race such as Skadi.  Elfs can vary in power sometimes they're  gods and sometimes they can be local spirit.

God just comes from the old norse word goth, it's just a name for a powerful being some of these beings were elfs.

Sometimes they wander incognito as a traveller, perhaps a bard or a woodsman and are normal looking but there is always some small thing about them which is clearly supernatural, a flash in their eyes, or pointed ears, or some other small feature. They are powerful wizards and craft powerful magical artefacts, but it is generally easier to get dwarves to make those for you even if you are a god. Elves are very aloof, dwarves don't discriminate in trade and both are related subspecies (for the purposes of magical abilities).

Not sure were you're getting some of that from.  In Norse lore dwarves technically are elves.  Dwarf is probably just another name for dark elf. 

Loki wound up having to use the dwarves to make the Aesir godly weapons (Thor's hammer, Odin's spear, etc.), because the elves refused to deal with him.

I don't think thats true at all. 

Modifié par Skadison, 23 septembre 2011 - 07:18 .

[Skadison]

Skadison wrote...

Shaughn78 wrote...

This is a very easily corrected problem.

All scaling of playable races is done in the appearance.2da. All the models are the same size. Currently humans have a scale of 1.0 and elves 0.9. If the human appearance was changed to 0.9 then both elves and humans would be the same size and humans would no longer be 6'6" to 6'10".

Yea but even if you change your height all the other elfs in the game are still short..

mungbean wrote...

Scandinavian elves are human sized and completely different from British/French elves, which are oversized pixies.

They're actually alot more complicated than that. They are actually a panthoen of gods in their own right.  Thor's wife is an elf (Sif) and he has a step son that is an elf (Ullr).  There are also other gods that are either full blood elf (Idunn) or mixed race such as Skadi.  Elfs can vary in power sometimes they're  gods and sometimes they can be local spirits.

God just comes from the old norse word goth, it's just a name for a powerful being some of these beings were elfs.

Sometimes they wander incognito as a traveller, perhaps a bard or a woodsman and are normal looking but there is always some small thing about them which is clearly supernatural, a flash in their eyes, or pointed ears, or some other small feature. They are powerful wizards and craft powerful magical artefacts, but it is generally easier to get dwarves to make those for you even if you are a god. Elves are very aloof, dwarves don't discriminate in trade and both are related subspecies (for the purposes of magical abilities).

Not sure were you're getting some of that from.  In Norse lore dwarves technically are elves.  Dwarf is probably just another name for dark elf. 

Loki wound up having to use the dwarves to make the Aesir godly weapons (Thor's hammer, Odin's spear, etc.), because the elves refused to deal with him.

I don't think thats true at all. 

EDIT:  Oh yes some humans in Norse lore described themselves as elfs and there was a place in Norway called Alfheim.  This is probably due them believing that they descended from the elfs.  You could also become an elf after you died.

Modifié par Skadison, 23 septembre 2011 - 07:41 .

[Shaughn78]

Skadison wrote...

Shaughn78 wrote...

This is a very easily corrected problem.

All scaling of playable races is done in the appearance.2da. All the models are the same size. Currently humans have a scale of 1.0 and elves 0.9. If the human appearance was changed to 0.9 then both elves and humans would be the same size and humans would no longer be 6'6" to 6'10".

Yea but even if you change your height all the other elfs in the game are still short..

If you modify the appearance .2da this will change all the appearances in the game. So you can either shrink the humans or stretch the elves. But it will apply to the player and all the NPCs.

[I_Raps]

Mirri Greenleaf wrote...

Perhaps you mean Bioware's GFF editor. I tried to find it on the Vault, but couldn't. I have a treasured copy and use it contantly to adjust the appearance of my PCs. If it is no longer availbale I'll be happy to email to anyone who wants it, if that's legal.

Here

[mungbean]

Skadison, historiological Norse and Celtic mythology suffer from the same problem as Egyptology as academia, extremely limited and highly subjective source material due to the lack of any traditional written language (Egyptians at least used heiratic). At least one published version, fairly celebrated has Loki wandering past the lands of the Vanir on his penance for cutting Sif's hair. His plan of redemption in presenting the Aesir with magical items begins with a visit to the elves, renowned magical craftsmen.
But the elves will not sell to the giants, only to the gods for they are selective in their trade. And they knew Loki who dealt with giants and they put him up for the night but refused to trade with him. Interestingly this is the only version and the only time elves or alfheim are mentioned at any time in Norse mythology as opposed to folklore, so I like it because where did the folklore come from if not here?
Loki then continued towards the shores of Jotunheim and found a cave, went underground in search of the dwarves. It was a dwarf who he eventually had make his items, they are not as skilled as the elves but they will trade with anyone. Interesting to contemplate how much more powerful Thor's hammer might've been if elves made it.

I left off explanation of Scandinavian elves/dwarves because it tends to confuse people. They are the same creature, all are called dvargar and the only common thing about them is turning to stone if caught in sunlight. Elves and dwarves are better thought of as the clan names within a species politically speaking.
They're very magical beings but humanoid and a little odd, not necessarily pointed ears but always something. That's the good ones. Their personality and deeds physically shape them, so greedy ones become stunted and dwarf like (a lot of the ones who deal with the gods tend to be dwarvish or rather greedy and always serving personal desires), mischievous ones look elfish, evil ones become monstrous.

But also existing in regional folklore the elfish ones and the elven name is what has mostly stuck among Norwegian communities, except physically as I described, average human sized but slightly supernatural quirk about them.
Part of this folklore is that alfheim is a dimension adjacent to midgard so that it intersects at certain random locations. Mischief which happens on farming properties are often the result of elves.
They occasionally kidnap children, right from their beds.
When this happens they take the child to live among them, sometimes they return many years later but hardly aged and having developed an elvish power or ability.

But this is folklore as opposed to mythology. In mythology there is no mention of traditional elves except for the mapping of Alfheim on some archaeological period reliefs. They are all dvargar but are only physically described in specific individual cases, they may appear as elvish or dwarvish or monstrous. They are for all intents and purposes the fulfillment of human citizenry in the lands of Asgard, Alfheim, Jotunheim and Vanaheim. For obvious reasons the ones near Jotunheim live underground, Svartalfheim or home of the dark elves these are the dwarvish greedy ones that live in seclusion because they don't like others much, but trade with them contemptuously, always to serve their greed.

And giants aren't giantish either, the scandinavian term giant refers to superhuman physical prowess, proverbially "a giant of a man" however the giants are human sized...in a way. Human sizes vary tremendously from 4' to 10' among the gods and men of the other realms and most of these magical beings can alter their physical shape at will. Odin may disguise himself as a withered elderly man incapable of walking without a stick but using an amazing looking spear for a walking stick. Or he may appear as a 15' tall engine of destruction wearing heavy armour on the battlefield, riding a 30' tall horse with eight legs. It makes no difference.

Generally I like to think of giants as neandertal-human cohabitation in distant racial memory (eg. passed in loose references with verbal tradition), given that cohabitation with a species capable of uprooting tree trunks but also teaching us how to make things like tents and weapons and practising religion (probably animism), this occured within the immigration line taken by the Scandinavians via the Balkans and was as recent as ca.25,000BP. Given the Old Testament in some extent, such as the flood tale could reference verbal tradition roughly dated 8000BP and look at the detail in that, I don't find it impossible some classical mythology could refer to a time as old then as then is now, where men did live with giants, and could procreate and trade with them for realz.

Detailing giantish society as comprehensively as it does Scandinavian mythology has been of particular interest to me. German family means I got mostly the Germanic version growing up, where Freja is one of Odin's wives, Celtic Morrigan is a valkyrie, and human looking isn't their true forms.

Modifié par mungbean, 24 septembre 2011 - 01:04 .

[Skadison]

Shaughn78 wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Shaughn78 wrote...

This is a very easily corrected problem.

All scaling of playable races is done in the appearance.2da. All the models are the same size. Currently humans have a scale of 1.0 and elves 0.9. If the human appearance was changed to 0.9 then both elves and humans would be the same size and humans would no longer be 6'6" to 6'10".

Yea but even if you change your height all the other elfs in the game are still short..

Could somebody go into more detail as how this can be done?

If you modify the appearance .2da this will change all the appearances in the game. So you can either shrink the humans or stretch the elves. But it will apply to the player and all the NPCs.

[Youkai]

Kaldor Silverwand wrote...

The dnd4 wikia page on elves says that elves are on the average 5'4" to 6' tall. That sounds like average human height to me. The human blueprints in NWN2 are clearly too tall as you say so maybe that is the bigger issue (sorry).

I know this topic is old, but I just had to ask. How do you all know about the scaling in NWN2? By this, I mean, how do you know the default human is so-and-so height? Does one of the 2das contain this information or is it written somewhere?

Modifié par Youkai, 15 février 2012 - 02:00 .

[kamal_]

Youkai wrote...

Kaldor Silverwand wrote...

The dnd4 wikia page on elves says that elves are on the average 5'4" to 6' tall. That sounds like average human height to me. The human blueprints in NWN2 are clearly too tall as you say so maybe that is the bigger issue (sorry).

I know this topic is old, but I just had to ask. How do you all know about the scaling in NWN2? By this, I mean, how do you know the default human is so-and-so height? Does one of the 2das contain this information or is it written somewhere?

Height can be quickly determined in the toolset without needing to resort to 2das. Place a human, place something on their head. Look at the height of the placeable in the properties tab. Heights is 2.0, and the toolset uses meters.

[M. Rieder]

kamal_ wrote...


Height can be quickly determined in the toolset without needing to resort to 2das. Place a human, place something on their head. Look at the height of the placeable in the properties tab. Heights is 2.0, and the toolset uses meters.

I think there is a mod to make it use cubits... or maybe it's hectares...

[Youkai]

kamal_ wrote...

Youkai wrote...

Kaldor Silverwand wrote...

The dnd4 wikia page on elves says that elves are on the average 5'4" to 6' tall. That sounds like average human height to me. The human blueprints in NWN2 are clearly too tall as you say so maybe that is the bigger issue (sorry).

I know this topic is old, but I just had to ask. How do you all know about the scaling in NWN2? By this, I mean, how do you know the default human is so-and-so height? Does one of the 2das contain this information or is it written somewhere?

Height can be quickly determined in the toolset without needing to resort to 2das. Place a human, place something on their head. Look at the height of the placeable in the properties tab. Heights is 2.0, and the toolset uses meters.

Are you sure it uses meters? Where is that information? I figured the toolset was using something like Unreal Units, a custom unit of measurement.

[kevL]

here's a quote from 'nwscript.nss', the file used by the compiler to define internally hard-coded constants & functions

// Brock H. OEI 12/09/05 -- converted these to use meters,
// which are the native distance units of the engine
// 1 meter = 3.2808 feet, 0.3047 feet = 1 meter
float RADIUS_SIZE_SMALL           = 1.524f; // ~5 feet
float RADIUS_SIZE_MEDIUM          = 3.048f; // ~10 feet
float RADIUS_SIZE_LARGE           = 4.572f; // ~15 feet
float RADIUS_SIZE_HUGE            = 6.069f; // ~20 feet
float RADIUS_SIZE_GARGANTUAN      = 7.620f; // ~25 feet
float RADIUS_SIZE_COLOSSAL        = 9.144f; // ~30 feet
float RADIUS_SIZE_TREMENDOUS      = 12.191f; // ~40 feet CG-OEI 7/16/2006
float RADIUS_SIZE_GINORMOUS       = 15.240f; // ~50 feet AFW-OEI 04/24/2006
float RADIUS_SIZE_VAST            = 18.288f; // ~60 feet CG-OEI 7/16/2006
float RADIUS_SIZE_ASTRONOMIC      = 24.384f; // ~80 feet CG-OEI 7/16/2006

( 0.3047 feet = 1 meter ?? )

[Kaldor Silverwand]

Brock H. must have been having a bad day when he wrote that. Hopefully his coding was better than his comments (a fault of many programmers). Should be:

1 meter = 3.2808 feet, 1 foot = 0.3047 meters

[Dann-J]

Kaldor Silverwand wrote...

Brock H. must have been having a bad day when he wrote that. Hopefully his coding was better than his comments (a fault of many programmers). Should be:

1 meter = 3.2808 feet, 1 foot = 0.3047 meters

An inch is commonly rounded off to 2.54cm. Based on that value, a foot would be 0.3048m. That 1/10th of a mm can make all the difference between being killed by that fireball, and only having your eyebrows singed.

Modifié par DannJ, 15 février 2012 - 09:47 .

[Youkai]

Thanks for all of the replies guys. Very interesting stuff. Despite these measurements being listed in code, it seems unlikely that they are intended to be as such in game. I mean, NPC sizes seem pretty average to me when you compare default humans to placeable size. But that is just my opinion, maybe they think everything in Faerun is gigantic. Faerunian Dwarves are actually ten feet tall!

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

I mentioned months ago above, but basically it's an issue with we Americans not being all that familiar with the metric system. Even though the toolset says meters (or metres, for you pedants), the American designers think yards. 200cm is a bit too tall for a human, but 6' is reasonable. The original paper rules are in feet as well, not meters, so it was just easier to set things up as 1 meter = 1 yard = 3 feet. I bet folks like Brock H. OEI above trying to properly use the metric system probably just added some inconsistencies to the game, rather than actually fixing anything.

[Youkai]

I agree with you Lugaid, somewhere along the line things became wrong or inconsistent. Perhaps even due to the reasoning you mention in your post. Yes, 6' is roughly 182 or 183 cm (or 1.82m or 1.83m) I believe. To be more exact I think it is actually between the two. The human height should probably be set to adjust from 150cm to 200cm if you want a decent "real-world" height range. Both ends are kind of extremes, but there are people at those heights. Hm, I am going to test the height ranges in the toolset real quick. I am curious what they are roughly measuring at in actual game units now... whatever they are supposed to be!

[Dann-J]

Currently the scaling options during character creation only seem to allow for a maximum of about 0.05 units either way (so between 0.95 and 1.05 of the standard size). Scaling values any greater than that would probably cause problems with the portraits (I think I just spat on the keyboard trying to read all those Ps). You'd either get tiny portraits, or close-ups of someone's right eye.