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[Pipboy3billion]

I know I said that this would be my last run through BG, but I'm playing my canon party and am pretty much taking care of everything with my protagonist (ranger/cleric), using other party members sparingly or for boss battles. I have more kills and exp% than everyone else combined. That had me thinking that after this run, I'd like to go through the entire series solo (which I've never done). Right now, I'm thinking ahead to what I'd like to play and wouldn't mind some advice.

I want to pick something that is effective, appropriately challenging, and doesn't rely on any cheese. So, for example, I won't be getting the cloak of algernon in BG1. Sure, it's technically legit, but way too uber. And, if there's a mob of enemies working together, I'm not going to cheat and use the fog of war to lure them out one at a time. Also, I won't be exploiting the game engine's shortcomings that let you break 2e rules. So, no rest and recovery to get a million traps and no using potions of genius to memorize every spell in the game. Furthermore, the only time I'll pick up NPCs will be to escort Imoen safely to FAI, get everyone safely out of Irenicus' prison, and pick up NPCs only for their quests and probably have them pull their own weight. I would also probably take Yoshi with me to Spellhold.

Side note, just curious, what happens if you don't free Minsc and Jaheira and leave them in the dungeon? I've never done it, but I just realized that it's probably possible and I wonder what happens if you do.

I don't have a clear race/class choice in mind. Right now, I'm thinking some kind of Rogue, possibly multi (though non-arcane), preferably of a diminutive class (halfling or gnome).

1) Halfling Fighter/Thief. I figure you get all the advantages of a Rogue, plus the armor, weapons, HLAs, and extra HP of a fighter.

2) Halfling Thief turned Swashbuckler in BG2. Pretty much the same as above. Though I'm not sure what advantage it has over the F/T. The AC bonus becomes moot, consider the F/T can wear plate and the Swash is limited to leathers (I won't exploit UAI to get around this restriction). Basically, the F/T will have backstab, better AC, THAC0, and HLAs.

3) Halfling Thief turned Assassin in BG2. The way I see it, it's basically a pure rogue, with a couple extras. The skill point reduction isn't going to be an issue in solo. Backstab immune enemies are going to be a bear, but poison weapon should help (except for undead like liches...oi). I figure losing access to GWW is going to be a major disadvantage, though. Isn't it pretty much necessary for a character that relies on melee? Also, it would be odd to play a Good-aligned assassin. Maybe I'll just have to channel Leon from "The Professional".

I'm wondering if anyone can make a case for the Swash over the F/T. In any event, I think the Assassin has more panache, but the F/T has more versatility. Thoughts?

[amanasleep]

Pipboy3billion wrote...

I'm wondering if anyone can make a case for the Swash over the F/T. In any event, I think the Assassin has more panache, but the F/T has more versatility. Thoughts?

Swashbuckler has a better Thac0 than the F/T for most of the game, from about 1 million XP to 5 million.  However that's marginal compared to the major advantage of the Swashbuckler, which is extra damage and AC.  The Swashbuckler damage bonus on every attack is significant, but they have fewer attacks than the F/T, so they need it.  The AC bonus allows a Swashbuckler to have a natural AC of 1, and a possible effective AC of -16 or more, which can be pretty effective even in ToB.  The F/T gets backstab, more natural attacks, and better access to HLA's, including the ability to really abuse Assassination.  The F/T is still better, but a Swashbuckler is not particularly weak in this comparison.  And of course, Swashbucklers are really quite good when dualed. 

[Grond0]

You don't need to even pick up Imoen in BG1 - just run away before she talks to you. In BG2 you do have to pick her up (but can drop her immediately), but you can leave Jaheira and Minsc.

The swashbuckler gets the bonus to hit and damage, which is a significant advantage over F/T. He levels far faster so will be more powerful in the mid-game, though the F/T will start catching-up eventually.

The skill point reduction will be an at least a bit of an issue for the assassin - even at the end of the game you won't have maxed all abilities. It will be a long time before you have even maxed the hiding skills let alone other useful ones such as set traps and detect illusion. You can get round the loss of GWW to some extent by making use of mage scrolls such as improved haste with UAI (unless you are also prohibiting this type of use of UAI).

[Pipboy3billion]

Taking Imoen to FAI is more of a rp thing. I'm not going to ditch her in the woods.

However that's marginal compared to the major advantage of the Swashbuckler, which is extra damage and AC.

The extra damage I can see. But unless you exploit UAI on armor (which I wouldn't do), they're about even on AC. Swash gets a natural bonus, F/T gets plate.

You can get round the loss of GWW to some extent by making use of mage scrolls such as improved haste with UAI (unless you are also prohibiting this type of use of UAI).

I will use scrolls and most other items, but I don't intend to exploit simulacrum.

[amanasleep]

Natural bonus plus Shadow Dragon Scale or Bracers is much better than plate plus whatever.  Later on UAI gives you plate anyway.  With Greater Evasion you can easily get to the AC cap.  This is pretty significant, because most ToB enemies have an effective Thac0 around -10, so you can get them to miss half the time.

Modifié par amanasleep, 04 septembre 2011 - 06:08 .

[Pipboy3billion]

First, I mentioned earlier that I wouldn't use UAI to get around the swash's armor restrictions. The reason why the swash is so agile is because he's unarmored. Anyway...

You're basically trading 5 points of THAC0 and 1 APR for 5 AC. No matter how you slice it, at best it means the swash is going to get hit 25% less often. Meanwhile, the F/T is going to be hitting up to 66% more often, not even considering HLAs. So, the F/T might get hit more in combat, but the reduction of time in combat more than makes up for it. Considering this, the F/T is actually getting hit less than the swash. Meanwhile, the F/T is also kicking off combat with a well placed backstab (which may be countered by the swash's damage bonus, though).

Also, I don't see how the Swash has a significantly better THAC0 at any point in the game. A swash 5 levels ahead of an F/T is still about 5 points behind in THAC0. It might have an edge of a few points somewhere in the mid-game, but it's a small lead and a small window.

As for the armor, shadow dragon scale is AC 1 with some acid resistance. There's a variety of -1 and -2 plate that have other extras. So, that 5 AC edge is now reduced to 2 or 3.

OTOH, I could be wrong. I'm under the impression that Swash's stop getting their abilities boosted at Level 20. If they keep getting the AC, THAC0, and damage bonuses to level 40, that does change things a bit, though with AC capped at -20 or -25, one is probably better focusing on resistances/offense.

If enemies have a THAC0 of -10 (which is cheating on the devs part, but whatever), then you need a ridiculously low AC to even have a chance at avoiding an attack...AC -20 for a 50% chance.

Modifié par Pipboy3billion, 04 septembre 2011 - 07:05 .

[amanasleep]

Pipboy3billion wrote...

First, I mentioned earlier that I wouldn't use UAI to get around the swash's armor restrictions. The reason why the swash is so agile is because he's unarmored. Anyway...

You're basically trading 5 points of THAC0 and 1 APR for 5 AC. No matter how you slice it, at best it means the swash is going to get hit 25% less often. Meanwhile, the F/T is going to be hitting up to 66% more often, not even considering HLAs. So, the F/T might get hit more in combat, but the reduction of time in combat more than makes up for it. Considering this, the F/T is actually getting hit less than the swash. Meanwhile, the F/T is also kicking off combat with a well placed backstab (which may be countered by the swash's damage bonus, though).

Also, I don't see how the Swash has a significantly better THAC0 at any point in the game. A swash 5 levels ahead of an F/T is still about 5 points behind in THAC0. It might have an edge of a few points somewhere in the mid-game, but it's a small lead and a small window.

As for the armor, shadow dragon scale is AC 1 with some acid resistance. There's a variety of -1 and -2 plate that have other extras. So, that 5 AC edge is now reduced to 2 or 3.

OTOH, I could be wrong. I'm under the impression that Swash's stop getting their abilities boosted at Level 20. If they keep getting the AC, THAC0, and damage bonuses to level 40, that does change things a bit, though with AC capped at -20 or -25, one is probably better focusing on resistances/offense.

If enemies have a THAC0 of -10 (which is cheating on the devs part, but whatever), then you need a ridiculously low AC to even have a chance at avoiding an attack...AC -20 for a 50% chance.

Swashbuckler bonuses are not capped, so yes, they eventually top out at Thac0 2 and +8 damage, along with a natural AC 1.  At the ToB cap the F/T edges out in Thac0, but the Swash has a higher Thac0 from mid SoA to mid ToB, and it's very close the entire way.  The extra damage per hit adds up quickly, although the loss of backstab probably leaves it equal and the extra attacks tip things towards F/T.  On AC, however, there is no comparison.  The only other class that can get a comparable AC is the Blade.

Ultimately I agree that the F/T is superior.  It's just a lot closer than most people suppose.

The devs aren't really cheating to give such low Thac0's.  Many of them in ToB are for Dragons, Demons, Giants, etc, and those values come straight from PnP sources (though not always).

[Pipboy3billion]

If it's not capped, the F/T then only edges out by 2 points of THAC0, which is somewhat further mitigated by the swash being able to put three points in two weapon. And, if it's +8 damage, considering how many hits it can take to take down baddies, +8 damage to every hit might actually edge out a backstab (unless the F/T does backstab and retreat tactics, which is hard to do without cheese).

I did a google search on BG THAC0s, and AC (being capped) does seem pretty irrelevant by the late game. I saw that one boss has a THAC0 of -23. I think the F/T might have an edge here because he can more effectively wield the Defender of Easthaven (in the offhand, preferably). It's the only item I know of with Damage Resistance (20%), so it's like being able to avoid 1 out of 5 hits regardless of AC.

I agree that it's pretty close. I think the only thing, at this point, that's putting the F/T ahead for me is proficiency points.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

1) How is the FT going to backstab if you are using armor as an argument against the swashbuckler?
2) Damage resistance from Defender of Easthaven stacks with Hardiness, for a total of 60% resistance.
3)@Pipboy3billion Did you really translate a bonus of 5 on AC as getting hit 25% less often? That's... brave.

[AnonymousHero]

Steal Jan's armor for another +25% physical damage resistance post-UAI. That makes a total of 40%+25%+20% = 85% on a F/T. That's a pretty big deal.

[Pipboy3billion]

1) My rule on this one is no switching armor in combat, or once an enemy is activated (unless you can get pretty far away and they're not chasing you. This is to prevent chessy armor switching after a backstab, which no DM would allow. For the F/T, if he's about to go up against a backstab immune baddie, he can just waltz in with full armor. Or, even if he forgoes the backstab (which the swash doesn't get anyway), he can just walk in with better armor and start swinging. Of course, this is moot now that I know the swash doesn't get a cap on this. There's no way a F/T can overcome a Swash's eventual 9 AC lead. OTOH, by the time the swash gets to that point, AC is pretty much irrelevant and you're better off going for DR.

2) Good to know, thanks.

3) d20 uses, as you would expect a simulated roll on a 20 sided dice, which I'm sure you know. Each side is worth roughly 5%. So, with an AC bonus of 5, any particular attack is going to have a 25% less chance of hitting, unless the attacker has ridiculous THAC0. Additionally, the mean of the distribution of number of hits across a combat encounter is going to be shifted by 5. Roughly translated, that means the +5 AC bonus means getting hit about 25% less often, on average.

Anon, yeah, I was thinking of Jans armor, too. I think that DR is going to be the way to go by endgame.

[Grond0]

Pipboy3billion wrote...
3) d20 uses, as you would expect a simulated roll on a 20 sided dice, which I'm sure you know. Each side is worth roughly 5%. So, with an AC bonus of 5, any particular attack is going to have a 25% less chance of hitting, unless the attacker has ridiculous THAC0. Additionally, the mean of the distribution of number of hits across a combat encounter is going to be shifted by 5. Roughly translated, that means the +5 AC bonus means getting hit about 25% less often, on average.

I think you and Humanoid_Taifun are talking slightly at cross purposes.  A shift of 5 in AC will affect the chance to hit by 25 percentage points if the to hit roll required, prior to considering the AC shift, is between 1 and 15.  However, this is not the same as saying the chance to hit is reduced by 25%.  For instance lets say that the attacker would hit with an 11 before considering the AC shift, i.e. he hits 10 times out of 20 on average.  After considering the AC shift he hits 5 times out of 20, i.e. his chance to hit has been reduced by 50%.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

It's brave because this 25% is true only for a single (and I mean a SINGLE) possible THAC0 value for each possible AC. For characters with good AC, 1 or 2 points will mean a whole lot more than for characters with bad AC.
Let's just go with 2 different sets and ignore criticals for ease of explanation. First case: the enemy needs to roll an 9 to hit you, second, he needs a 13 or better.
First case, the enemy has a 60% chance of hitting you. You improve your AC by 5 points: The enemy now a 35% chance of hitting you. This is 41,7% less. (in other words, you can keep standing 71,4% longer)
Second case, the enemy has a 40% chance of hitting you. After the AC boost, it's 15%. And this is a whopping 62,5% less (or 166,7% more durability) from the "same" 5 points difference.
What's your definition of a "ridiculous THAC0"?

[Pipboy3billion]

I think we're looking at the probabilities a little different. You're talking about the percentage change of the attacker's probability, I'm talking about a shift in the probability of getting hit. So, for ease of explanation, if my AC is 5 and the attackers THAC0 is 10, there's a 75% chance I'm getting hit. If my AC magically drops to 0, the attacker's probability of a hit drops to 50%. Now, the attacker's chance to hit drops by 33.3%, but the probability of me getting hit drops by 25%. These are two very different things.

Let's look at it a different way. The attacker's THAC0 is 15, and my AC is -4, so he'll hit on a 19 or 20. i could put on a ring of protection +1, and he'll hit me half as often (or a 50% drop). Sounds dramatic, but with this spread, he actually goes from hitting 10% of the time to 5% of the time. Big whoop.

D20 uses a linearly distributed randomizer for it's checks. It's simple and elegant, but without a bell curve (i.e. 2d10 or 3d6), there's less of an incentive to edge for those extra points. With a bell curve, you would be shooting to get over the "hump" (or the mean), and the closer you are to it, the more every single point matters. With a linear distribution, as long as you're still in range (i.e. the attacker doesn't have a THAC0 of -20 while you only have an AC of -10), the real value is the same no matter where you are on the scale.

As for ridiculous THAC0, I would say that includes any THAC0 where armor is pretty much irrelevant.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Oh, I know what you are talking about. I'm simply referring to the fact that it's wrong at the point I'm answering to:

Pipboy3billion said:
No matter how you slice it, at best it means the swash is going to get hit 25% less often.

Oh and just an opinion: As I see it, getting hit 5% of the time IS a lot less than getting hit 10% of the time - it's why I prefer Stoneskin and PfMW to AC-24 - sometimes, a single hit can ruin your day, and that's especially true if you are soloing.

[Pipboy3billion]

Yeah, I could see how easy it is for us to be referring to different things.

But, yeah, when soloing, you have to play a hell of a lot more defensively considering you only have one character and nobody to resurrect him (not that you could with the PC anyway).

[C Barchuk]

Damn, you guys know alot about this game and math as well...lol. Anyways, I say go with the assassin. Much cooler I think.

[Pipboy3billion]

Time to go in a different direction.

Ok, so I got bored of the R/C (I don't think it really fit in with that party anyway), and have been playing the F/T for a bit, starting with BG1. I'm looking for people's thoughts about gear. With one character, backpack space is more precious. You have to ask yourself if you want to hold onto something, or sell it so you have inventory space for more loot. My original thought was that my only gear would be what I can equip, plus quick items. However, I'm currently lugging around a second set of armor (I use shadow armor for scouting, weak enemies and ankheg place for the hairier fights), and a second set of boots (stealth boots to wear with shadow armor, boots of avoidance to go with ankheg plate). My quickslots have potions of invisibility, healing, and oil of speed, while I'm also holding on to an elixir of health, a couple extra healing potions, a scroll of protection against magic, and protection against undead. I figure the first scroll will come in handy near the endgame and the other during DT. All that takes up about half my inventory, leaving me with only half for loot. For this reason alone, I usually have to hit town after each area. DT is going to be a real pain at this rate. Too bad there's no bag of holding for BG1.

I'm thinking of selling the ankheg plate, returning the boots of stealth, and maybe even selling the extra gear. However, the extra 3 AC from the ankheg plate would be rather hard to give up. It basically stops 1 in 7 hits that would otherwise hit me. In any event, for those who have played solo, how have you managed your limited inventory?

Modifié par Pipboy3billion, 06 septembre 2011 - 12:34 .

[The Fred]

25% of your attacks which weren't hits will now be hits. However, the percentage increase of hits depends on how often you were hitting before. Really, this doesn't matter - you should still be getting the same increase in damage. However it makes it difficult to compare it with, say, a % damage increase. The best thing is to be hitting mediumly often for medium damage, rather than hitting rarely for lots or hitting often for little, since in those cases you tend to get diminishing returns.

[jaxsbudgie]

Since you're going to be using a Thief (regardless of whether it's a F/T or Swashbuckler) have you considered Rogue Rebalancing? It's essential to anyone using a Thief, they also re-jig the Thief kits in a way that makes much more sense.
For example, this is how they alter the Swashbuckler kit:
Swashbuckler

The Swashbuckler kit now uses the Fighter's THAC0 advancement table (i.e. THAC0 improves by one point at each level up) when wielding melee weapons, as described in the "Complete Thief's Handbook" 2E AD&D supplement. Note that this trait replaces the "+1 to hit per 5 levels" bonus which was present in the unmodded game. Furthermore, Swashbucklers no longer receive an innate damage bonus, cannot dual-class to Fighters (they can still dual-class to Mages or Clerics though) and can no longer benefit from an increase to the backstab multiplier provided by items (such as the revised Short Sword of Backstabbing). The updated kit description reads as follows:

SWASHBUCKLER: This rogue is part acrobat, part swordsman and part wit: the epitome of charm and grace.

Advantages:
- Gains +1 bonus to armor class for every 5 levels
- Uses the Fighter's THAC0 progression table while wielding melee weapons
- Can specialize in any melee weapon that a thief can use
- Can acquire the Whirlwind ability at higher levels
- Can acquire the Insightful Strike ability at higher levels

Disadvantages:
- Cannot backstab
- Cannot dual-class to a Fighter
- Cannot acquire the Assassination ability
- Cannot acquire the Crippling Strike ability

[morbidest2]

I thought a vanilla swashie never got a backstab multiplier. Are you saying that the special properties of the "thief swords" overrode that prohibition? Oh, the wasted opportunities!!!!   

Modifié par morbidest2, 12 septembre 2011 - 05:55 .

[Pipboy3billion]

I try to keep the modding to a minimum, especially since I'm running on Windows 7, where BG is unstable enough as it is. All I have going are the official patches, and I think the official one from G3.

[AnonymousHero]

morbidest2 wrote...
I thought a vanilla swashie never got a backstab multiplier.

They don't.

morbidest2 wrote...
Are you saying that the special properties of the "thief swords" overrode that prohibition? Oh, the wasted opportunities!!!!   

Only equipment which by itself increases backstab multiplier grants extra backstab damage to Swashbucklers -- and even then only 2x damage. AFAIK there are no such items in Vanilla (nor most modded installs), so it's not actually an issue in practice. It was only when RR added the "increases backstab multiplier by 1" modifier to the SSoB that it became an issue.

[jaxsbudgie]

Pipboy3billion wrote...

I try to keep the modding to a minimum, especially since I'm running on Windows 7, where BG is unstable enough as it is. All I have going are the official patches, and I think the official one from G3.

I run BG2 on Windows 7 64-bit with several mods installed and it's fine. It does go a bit strange when minimising, but I think that can be avoided with windowed mode.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

I have like 30 mods on Win7 32bit, and besides the obvious (30 mods is about 29 mods too many for stability, give or take 1) there are no issues.