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[Seboist]

marshalleck wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
I've already gone back with one of my Shepards and unmade my "focus on Sovereign" decision, because I find the attendant lack of content in ME2 disappointing. Whereas if you save them, you get all the comedy associated with "ah yes, reapers" and the usual antics of Larry, Moe, and Curly. The "consequence" payoff for that decision from ME1 in ME2 is massively, HUGELY in favor of paragons in terms of tangible gameplay experience.

Except there are no actual consequences.  There is no story backfire if Shepard chooses to concentrate on Sovereign or even to outright abandon the council.  Yes, Councilor Velarn is funny and you don't get to talk to him if you let him die (because he's dead), but nothing happens to Shepard for letting them die.  There is nothing you need to accomplish that requires the council. At all.

I know that, and I've said as much in this thread earlier. There is a distinct lack of consequence associated with much of the renegade playthrough. And some people, Someone With Mass in particular, are now taking to calling that very lack of consequence a consequence in its own right.

ME2 acts as if Renegade Shepard was on one big acid trip in the previous game and hallucinated doing all those things she thought she did. That one doesn't even have to play ME1 or import anything to experience ME2 as a renegade shows that it's the lowest of the low path you can take.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Renegade: Get the job done at any cost....Except if that cost is a cameo or email.

[TheOptimist]

Seboist wrote...

ME2 acts as if Renegade Shepard was on one big acid trip in the previous game and hallucinated doing all those things she thought she did. That one doesn't even have to play ME1 or import anything to experience ME2 as a renegade shows that it's the lowest of the low path you can take.

There's what, like 2 or 3 cameos of actual difference + the people who support keeping the Collector base are a little apprehensive about it afterwards? There's a renegade option where Helena Blake lives.  There's a Renegade option where Parasini lives. There's a renegade option where Wrex lives.  There's a Renegade option where Conrad lives and is in fact the only way Conrad treats the encounter, even if you were nice to him the first time.  If memory serves Chorban also has a renegade way of resolving his difficulties without killing him. Now, there are also options where these people all die, but that's not Paragon vs. Renegade, because Renegade ALSO had the chance to save them.

[PrinceLionheart]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Renegade: Get the job done at any cost....Except if that cost is a cameo or email.

I love it.

[Golden Owl]

Bozorgmehr 2.0 wrote...

azerSheppard wrote...

Agreed, if you shot the last 3 guys that lied to you, you should have the option to say as much.

Indeed. A Shepard who chose to save the workers during Zaeed's loyalty mission might influence the way other "terrorists" view Shep. They may not take Shepard's threats too seriously knowing (s)he has shown to value the life of innocents over taking out "terrorists". A Shepard who didn't care about innocents in the past would be a lot more frightning and intimidating in the eyes of ruthless criminals.

That's a good point...I play a Paragon, but would certainly be happy to see that implemented into ME3.

[Dave of Canada]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Renegade: Get the job done at any cost....Except if that cost is a cameo or email.

Except most of us still play Renegade despite these "costs", so... the argument doesn't work!

[KotorEffect3]

I wonder if renegades would be willing to sacrifice Earth to stop the reapers. After all it would get the job done.

[Dave of Canada]

Earth, having been ransacked by the Reapers, would be sacrificed in my playthrough. I'd probably sacrifice it above all else, simply because it's highly illogical to send in your forces to rescue a planet which is mostly destroyed and (possibly) indoctrinated.

I'd probably lead a Turian fleet there before it's sacrificed, assuming that's where the majority of the Reapers would be settled. The Turian fleet would distract them while we're launching a Mass Relay into Earth or something, destroying the majority of the Reapers and any chance of political instability and war from the Turians.

I'd assume Mars and such would also be destroyed (it's destroying a system), though they aren't likely to be in any better state.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 septembre 2011 - 01:14 .

[TheOptimist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Some would say that Renegade choices never actually being necessary or "right" is a "backfire".

Provide evidence that the Paragon way is ever actually necessary or 'right'.

[Dave of Canada]

TheOptimist wrote...

Provide evidence that the Paragon way is ever actually necessary or 'right'.

Everybody you've let go who proved themselves dangerous have either:
A. Reformed.
B. Want to help you.
C. All of the above.
D. Done absolutely nothing between ME1 and ME2.

Everybody you tell to screw off:
A. Understand your point of view and love it.
B. Can be charmed to accept your point of view.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

Provide evidence that the Paragon way is ever actually necessary or 'right'.

What?

Anyway, Renegade choices which were not necessary (all of them) are as follows:

The rachni queen.

Sparing Shiala.

Same with Fist.

Same with Wrex.

Same with the Feros Colonists.

Same with Balak.

Same with the Council.


I don't think you really understood what I said because the request you made doesn't make any sense.

You should think about my post more before responding to it so you don't make a fool of yourself again.


The point is, none of the sacrifices made by a Renegade Shepard have ever actually been necessary to achieve victory. It's really tragic if you get right down to it. Shepard doesn't realize he made all these difficult choices, for understandable reasons, but that none of them were ever actually needed.

His request made sense to me, prove the paragon choice was the right one or the neccesary one, and email or a cameo doesn't make it any more correct than the renegade option, so please...show us.

[KotorEffect3]

Saphra Deden wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

I wonder if renegades would be willing to sacrifice Earth to stop the reapers. After all it would get the job done.

No, because I care less about "the job" and more about the human species.

Well you have always gone the human dominance route so at least you are honest about your intentions,  I am just wondering where other renegades stand on it because I always hear them talking about getting the job done but at the same timemany of them want to put humanity on top.  What happens when those two objectives come into conflict with each other?

[Dave of Canada]

Saphra Deden wrote...

As long as the Reapers and turians do exactly what you want them to do that plan should work.

They aren't exactly bright from what we've seen, to be honest. I'd bring up a more complex plan which would probably sacrifice far more than the Turians, though I'd need to know more how much soldiers I'd have at my disposal and how long it would take to fly through space without the Relays.

[Dave of Canada]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

His request made sense to me, prove the paragon choice was the right one or the neccesary one, and email or a cameo doesn't make it any more correct than the renegade option, so please...show us.

ME1.
Renegade: You pose a threat to the universe, I'll eliminate you.
Paragon: I trust you won't be a threat to the universe.

ME2.
Renegade: Nobody cares that I've eliminated the Rachni? Killed a dozen people? Hello? Anybody there?
Paragon: Oh, you weren't a threat after all. Thanks for telling me you're a reformed individual / you're going to help me / you're going to do nothing of note.

Why pick the Renegade option (if you're metagaming) when everybody you assist turns out to magically grow into an upstanding citizen by being close to Shepard's aura.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 septembre 2011 - 01:25 .

[KotorEffect3]

Saphra Deden wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Well you have always gone the human dominance route so at least you are honest about your intentions,

Just for the record though, I sacrificed Feros. I'll hurt humanity's interests if it means saving humanity. However I don't think sacrificing the Earth does that. Losing Earth loses us humanity too.

As to your other question... well it depends on the Renegade. In theory Renegade is just about relative ruthlessness and isn't inherently tied to politics in any way. Saren was utterly ruthless, so was Vasir, but they were both (mostly) pro-Council. Vasir at least seemed a fully on "Council" Spectre and not an asari Spectre. If you get my meaning.

I'll admit my question was quite broad and I should probably narrow it down to the cerberus or at least pro-human crowd.

[TheOptimist]

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...

[quote]TheOptimist wrote...

Provide evidence that the Paragon way is ever actually necessary or 'right'.[/quote]

What?[/quote]

It's written in english. If going the Renegade route is never 'necessary or right' and that's a backfire, provide evidence that the Paragon route is ever necessary or deemed 'right' by the story.

[quote]Anyway, Renegade choices which were not necessary (all of them) are as follows:

The rachni queen.[/quote]
Don't know that yet.

[quote]Sparing Shiala.[/quote]
You killed her cause you thought she deserved it. 'Necessary' doesn't enter into it.

[quote]Same with Fist.[/quote]
Indeed, you kill him if you think he's worthless scum.

[quote]Same with Wrex.[/quote]
Killing/Sparing Wrex is not Renegade, Renegades can make him back down as well.

[quote]Same with the Feros Colonists.[/quote]
Do we know that? Seems they're still having issues with the Thorian pollen...

[quote]Same with Balak.[/quote]
That one remains to be seen as well.

[quote]Same with the Council. [/quote]
Could turn out you're gonna need all those Turian and Human fleets they've been so busy building.

[quote]I don't think you really understood what I said because the request you made doesn't make any sense.

You should think about my post more before responding to it so you don't make a fool of yourself again.[/quote]

Keep thinkin' that if you want, you still haven't proved your point, and I say it again.  Prove anything the Paragon path does is necessary to the story or deemed 'right' by the story.

[quote]The point is, none of the sacrifices made by a Renegade Shepard have ever actually been necessary to achieve victory. It's really tragic if you get right down to it. Shepard doesn't realize he made all these difficult choices, for understandable reasons, but that none of them were ever actually needed.[/quote]

No Paragon choice has been necessary to achieve victory either.  As for 'sacrifices', its not that the Paragon doesn't sacrifice anything (8 human cruisers ring a bell?) it's that the Paragon makes different choices about what to sacrifice.  Now if you're saying that the Paragon's sacrifices generally feel more morally correct, that's between you and your conscience.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

His request made sense to me, prove the paragon choice was the right one or the neccesary one, and email or a cameo doesn't make it any more correct than the renegade option, so please...show us.

ME1.
Renegade: You pose a threat to the universe, I'll eliminate you.
Paragon: I trust you won't be a threat to the universe.

ME2.
Renegade: Nobody cares that I've eliminated the Rachni? Killed a dozen people? Hello? Anybody there?
Paragon: Oh, you weren't a threat after all. Thanks for telling me you're a reformed individual / you're going to help me / you're going to do nothing of note.

Why pick the Renegade option (if you're metagaming) when everybody you assist turns out to magically grow into an upstanding citizen by being close to Shepard's aura.

That doesn't mean the paragon choice was right, it was just different, no one acknowleding you doing something doesn't make it wrong.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

...provide evidence that the Paragon route is ever necessary or deemed 'right' by the story.

...and I just explained that to you. It is not a complicated subject. Paragon is never about "necessity". Renegade is.

Regarding the rachni queen all indications are she is a friend. So killing her wasn't necessary.

That doesn't mean sparing her was neccesary unless the rachni prove to be the difference in the war.

So you have still failed to provide evidence.