549 réponses à ce sujet

[TheOptimist]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

His request made sense to me, prove the paragon choice was the right one or the neccesary one, and email or a cameo doesn't make it any more correct than the renegade option, so please...show us.

ME1.
Renegade: You pose a threat to the universe, I'll eliminate you.
Paragon: I trust you won't be a threat to the universe.

ME2.
Renegade: Nobody cares that I've eliminated the Rachni? Killed a dozen people? Hello? Anybody there?
Paragon: Oh, you weren't a threat after all. Thanks for telling me you're a reformed individual / you're going to help me / you're going to do nothing of note.

Why pick the Renegade option (if you're metagaming) when everybody you assist turns out to magically grow into an upstanding citizen by being close to Shepard's aura.

Except killing most of those people ISN'T A RENEGADE CHOICE.  You have Renegade options that don't involve killing like 75% of the cameos.  It's not a Paragon/Renegade, it's getting the job accomplished vs. homicidal sociopath.

[Dave of Canada]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

That doesn't mean the paragon choice was right

Actually, it does.

All reasoning for the Renegade decision usually disappears when you're metagaming the Paragon decision, picking the Paragon decisions usually leads to the "right" decision. For example, if you've spared somebody and they reappear pissed off at Shepard and hinders them in some way, the Renegade choice becomes justified in some sense.

When you do a decision, blue should not always be the "right" decision for everybody you trust somehow being capable of being trusted. Otherwise, why be untrusting?

Nobody mentioning Renegade decisions is still a problem in this case, though that's an entirely different beast from the Paragons always being right.

[Dave of Canada]

TheOptimist wrote...

Except killing most of those people ISN'T A RENEGADE CHOICE.  You have Renegade options that don't involve killing like 75% of the cameos.  It's not a Paragon/Renegade, it's getting the job accomplished vs. homicidal sociopath.

Rachni, Rana, Shiala, Fist, Feros, Council, ect?

What about those who've decided to side with Anoleis over Parasini (which IS Renegade), which doesn't contain killing?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 septembre 2011 - 02:03 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

That doesn't mean the paragon choice was right

Actually, it does.

All reasoning for the Renegade decision usually disappears when you're metagaming the Paragon decision, picking the Paragon decisions usually leads to the "right" decision. For example, if you've spared somebody and they reappear pissed off at Shepard and hinders them in some way, the Renegade choice becomes justified in some sense.

When you do a decision, blue should not always be the "right" decision for everybody you trust somehow being capable of being trusted. Otherwise, why be untrusting?

Nobody mentioning Renegade decisions is still a problem in this case, though that's an entirely different beast from the Paragons always being right.

If your evidence is not getting a cameo or an email, then I have nothing left to say becuase this will go no where fast.

[TheOptimist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

...provide evidence that the Paragon route is ever necessary or deemed 'right' by the story.

...and I just explained that to you. It is not a complicated subject. Paragon is never about "necessity". Renegade is.

Regarding the rachni queen all indications are she is a friend. So killing her wasn't necessary. Shepard would feel terrible if he knew the truth.

Killing the Shiala had nothing to do with punishing her. Shepard's line is, "You change sides too often,". That sounds to me more like he fears her heel-face turn is not genuine.

'Indications' do not the truth make, as a bunch of people just got through pointing out to SWM.  Killing Shiala because you think she's a snake is STILL killing her for her personality, not a matter of necessity.

TheOptimist wrote...

Killing/Sparing Wrex is not Renegade, Renegades can make him back down as well.

You get 9 Renegade for talking him down and 25 for killing him. It is also still a Renegade choice, even if it is not the ONLY Renegade choice. Good thing Wrex decided to believe your BS about Saren. Note that Wrex never asked to join Saren, he just wanted to save the cure. Shepard never adresses that but Wrex falls in line anyway.

Personally I blame this on cut content since originally what to do with the cure was a moral choice in that mission.

It doesn't matter.  The point is Renegade players constantly bring up killing Wrex as a point where they got screwed when that was never a matter of Paragon/Renegade choice.  Even as a pure Renegade player, you had 2 options to choose from and you made your choice.

Oh god, medical issues. I'm sure they'd have all rather just been gunned down. That's only one angle of the dilemma anyway. It's a good thing that nerve agent didn't wear off too quickly and allow the colonists to jump you from the rear while you fought the Thorian.

Meh, I'd just have elbow dropped them again.  And more to the point, we don't know what those medical issues will ultimately lead to. 

As for Balak, so far killing him seems to have accomplished nothing. Sure, that might change in ME3, but for now it has had no positive effect and no negative effect. So far it has proven to have been unnecessary to sacrifice the hostages.

We'll have to see.  Out of curiosity, if Balak DOES reappear, and Paragons do have to go kill him, are Renegade players then going to complain because leaving someone alive resulted in more content?

True for the Council as well.

It's really not.  For one thing, depending on how you played you killed the Council because Humans should inherit the galaxy.  Secondly, saving the Council provides you with absolutely no benefits either.

You are such a moron.

Oh no, help! Name calling on the internet!

[Dave of Canada]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

If your evidence is not getting a cameo or an email, then I have nothing left to say becuase this will go no where fast.

So... Paragon choice removing the (common) Renegade's reasoning and always ending preferable isn't the Paragon always being right? What is? Would you need a writer to come out of your television screen to say so?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 septembre 2011 - 02:19 .

[TheOptimist]

Dave of Canada wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

Except killing most of those people ISN'T A RENEGADE CHOICE.  You have Renegade options that don't involve killing like 75% of the cameos.  It's not a Paragon/Renegade, it's getting the job accomplished vs. homicidal sociopath.

Rachni, Rana, Shiala, Fist, Feros, Council, ect?

What about those who've decided to side with Anoleis over Parasini (which IS Renegade), which doesn't contain killing?

Wrex, Parasini, Verner, Blake, Chorban, you get Feros anyway, etc.  And Correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't Parasini show up if she's not dead and complain that you screwed up her investigation (which you can then do a SECOND time on Illium)?

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

If your evidence is not getting a cameo or an email, then I have nothing left to say becuase this will go no where fast.

So... Paragon choice removing the (common) Renegade's reasoning and always ending preferable isn't the Paragon always being right? 

No,no it isn't.

[TheOptimist]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

That doesn't mean the paragon choice was right

Actually, it does.

All reasoning for the Renegade decision usually disappears when you're metagaming the Paragon decision, picking the Paragon decisions usually leads to the "right" decision. For example, if you've spared somebody and they reappear pissed off at Shepard and hinders them in some way, the Renegade choice becomes justified in some sense.

When you do a decision, blue should not always be the "right" decision for everybody you trust somehow being capable of being trusted. Otherwise, why be untrusting?

Nobody mentioning Renegade decisions is still a problem in this case, though that's an entirely different beast from the Paragons always being right.

Since most Paragons would probably tell you they wish they'd gone ahead and shot Thanoptis (or been given that option in the second game), that's not always true.  Bioware has also demonstrated more willingness to do this with Samara's dossier mission.  Besides which, Renegade is intended to be a path where you play with the philosophy that among other things trusting people is bad.  Paragon is intended to be a path where you play with the philosophy that again, among other things, trusting people is good.  The game rewards both schools of thought, but if you start with the assumption that trusting people should be punished, suddenly the Paragon path is 'unrealistic',

[Golden Owl]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Earth, having been ransacked by the Reapers, would be sacrificed in my playthrough. I'd probably sacrifice it above all else, simply because it's highly illogical to send in your forces to rescue a planet which is mostly destroyed and (possibly) indoctrinated.

I'd probably lead a Turian fleet there before it's sacrificed, assuming that's where the majority of the Reapers would be settled. The Turian fleet would distract them while we're launching a Mass Relay into Earth or something, destroying the majority of the Reapers and any chance of political instability and war from the Turians.

I'd assume Mars and such would also be destroyed (it's destroying a system), though they aren't likely to be in any better state.

Wow!!........That's just cold blooded murder...deliberately luring the Turian fleets into a death trap.

[Seboist]

Renegade choices at best result in hollow victories with needless sacrifice and at worst are a delusion Shepard had that never happened.

Here are some examples showing what a poorly thought-out joke the Disney morality system is;

- Why bother sending Veetor to Cerberus when it's rendered pointless by the alternative giving you the exact same data?

- Why bother destroying the Genophage data when the game outright tells you it's pointless by Mordin saying he can recreate it without issue?

- Why bother sacrificing the council when you can still save them
and destroy sovereign with minimal losses? Don't have to worry about
humans being made militarily weaker or any negative response from the
brass or people back home either. Oh and you'll actually see the council
unlike the alleged "human-led" one which could be the three little pigs
for all Shepard knows.

- Why bother gunning down the colonists in Feros when the gas grenades actually make it easier?

-
Why bother killing the Rachni Queen when there's no negative
consequence in the form of animosity from the Krogan or the (very)
likely chance you'll still be fighting Rachni husks anyway in ME3?

-
Why bother killing criminals when they'll either become reformed
(Helena Blake) or made into a humorous cameo(Fist)? They choice just
exists in a bubble and disappears into a black hole if you kill them.

Renegade just exists for the lulz and (poorly) hiding the linearity of the story.

[Xilizhra]

Cold-blooded murder from Dave of Canada? Surely you jest.

[Dave of Canada]

@Optomist: I feel like we're only going to go around in circles. /shrug

Golden Owl wrote...

Wow!!........That's just cold blooded murder...deliberately luring the Turian fleets into a death trap.

It's assuring there's no political fallout after the Reapers are dead and done. We're going to need to rebuild, repopulate and make sure everybody is strong enough to hold their own. Turians hold themselves as proud soldiers and every citizen of theirs, at least from what I understand, have military training and discipline.

Considering we're going to have to deal with the war which has been brewing since Mass Effect 2, I can't allow Turian supremacy as their extremely large fleets and larger military force (and civilians can become military quite quickly in this case) can probably devastate the remnants of civilization.

Eliminate the Turian fleet and you've solved multiple problems with the post-war universe and the Council can spin the story to make Turians seem like the galaxy's heroes, they'd be extremely proud and content with the title that they'd be less interested in waging war with the universe and more interested in enjoying their pride and rebuilding themselves from (near) scratch.

The Galaxy isn't going to be pretty after the Reapers are defeated either, Turians have proven themselves adept at quickly adapting new technologies too.

How could we leave the most politically unstable fleet with the most ships, training and overall possible soldiers who're capable of adapting technologies (which will be littering all known space if we defeat the Reapers) unchecked?

How many more would die in the resulting war?

Asari military is disorganized and could be defeated, despite their stronger ships.
Salarians can be bought by humanity.
Krogan will be manipulated through Shepard's ties with Wrex.
Vorcha / Hanar / Elcor / Drell don't pose any threat.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 septembre 2011 - 02:50 .

[Homebound]

i think the paragon/renegade choice of saving/killing the council should be one of those backfires.

[TheOptimist]

Seboist wrote...

Renegade choices at best result in hollow victories with needless sacrifice and at worst are a delusion Shepard had that never happened.

Here are some examples showing what a poorly thought-out joke the Disney morality system is;

- Why bother sending Veetor to Cerberus when it's rendered pointless by the alternative giving you the exact same data?

He deserves it for sending that damn mech after you.

- Why bother destroying the Genophage data when the game outright tells you it's pointless by Mordin saying he can recreate it without issue?

If Mordin recreates it you'll just have to destroy it (and perhaps Mordin) again.  Has no bearing on whether or not you think it's 'necessary'.

- Why bother sacrificing the council when you can still save them
and destroy sovereign with minimal losses? Don't have to worry about
humans being made militarily weaker or any negative response from the
brass or people back home either. Oh and you'll actually see the council
unlike the alleged "human-led" one which could be the three little pigs
for all Shepard knows.

Why bother saving them when they don't believe you and humanity is advanced by killing them?

- Why bother gunning down the colonists in Feros when the gas grenades actually make it easier?

They're infected with an unknown pathogen whose full effects we're STILL not sure of.

-
Why bother killing the Rachni Queen when there's no negative
consequence in the form of animosity from the Krogan or the (very)
likely chance you'll still be fighting Rachni husks anyway in ME3?

We don't know there's no negatives yet, remains to be seen.  This choice hasn't carried to it's conclusion, nor have many others.

-
Why bother killing criminals when they'll either become reformed
(Helena Blake) or made into a humorous cameo(Fist)? They choice just
exists in a bubble and disappears into a black hole if you kill them.

And?  You kill them because you think they deserve it, not because you're looking for a reward.  For being such cynics, Renegades sure seem to want a lot of validation by the galaxy.

Renegade just exists for the lulz and (poorly) hiding the linearity of the story.

Renegade exists because the story is up to you.  Every Shepard is different, and it's highly unlikely any 2 have been played quite the same, or for the same reasons.  If you think the Rachni Queen is creepy and full of ****, you blast that alien hag and more power to you.  And it's a VIDEO GAME, the whole thing is 'for the lulz'.

[Dave of Canada]

Sad thing is, I killed all the colonists on Feros and they still showed up and told me they were sick.

[Golden Owl]

Dave of Canada wrote...

@Optomist: I feel like we're only going to go around in circles. /shrug

Golden Owl wrote...

Wow!!........That's just cold blooded murder...deliberately luring the Turian fleets into a death trap.

It's assuring there's no political fallout after the Reapers are dead and done. We're going to need to rebuild, repopulate and make sure everybody is strong enough to hold their own. Turians hold themselves as proud soldiers and every citizen of theirs, at least from what I understand, have military training and discipline.

Considering we're going to have to deal with the war which has been brewing since Mass Effect 2, I can't allow Turian supremacy as their extremely large fleets and larger military force (and civilians can become military quite quickly in this case) can probably devastate the remnants of civilization.

Eliminate the Turian fleet and you've solved multiple problems with the post-war universe and the Council can spin the story to make Turians seem like the galaxy's heroes, they'd be extremely proud and content with the title that they'd be less interested in waging war with the universe and more interested in enjoying their pride and rebuilding themselves from (near) scratch.

The Galaxy isn't going to be pretty after the Reapers are defeated either, Turians have proven themselves adept at quickly adapting new technologies too.

How could we leave the most politically unstable fleet with the most ships, training and overall possible soldiers who're capable of adapting technologies (which will be littering all known space if we defeat the Reapers) unchecked?

How many more would die in the resulting war?

Asari military is disorganized and could be defeated, despite their stronger ships.
Salarians can be bought by humanity.
Krogan will be manipulated through Shepard's ties with Wrex.
Vorcha / Hanar / Elcor / Drell don't pose any threat.

Back up for a moment to bolded, underlined section....I am assuming you are not talking about the Reaper war?....If this brewing war comes about from a renegade play, I am very in the dark, as I haven't a renegade play through...The only pending wars I am aware of are the Reaper threat, possibly Batarian/Human (Arrival) and Geth/Quarian.

You going to need to clarify this one for me.

[Marionetten]

We really need more renegade content as that's the crux of the issue here. Paragons are most certainly favored by design as they get more content to enjoy. Spara Shiala and you get an extra quest. Kill Shiala and you get absolutely nothing. This needs to change. Every choice should be rewarded with its own consequences otherwise we just end up with empty and meaningless choices.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Marionetten wrote...

We really need more renegade content as that's the crux of the issue here. Paragons are most certainly favored by design as they get more content to enjoy. Spara Shiala and you get an extra quest. Kill Shiala and you get absolutely nothing. This needs to change. Every choice should be rewarded with its own consequences otherwise we just end up with empty and meaningless choices.

Whoa...what extra quest?

[Marionetten]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Whoa...what extra quest?

"If Shepard allowed Shiala to live after killing the Thorian, she can be found on Illium, investigating a medical contract made with the colonists of Zhu's Hope. Shepard can offer to negotiate with the company on Shiala's behalf. In the months after her exposure to the Thorian, Shiala's skin pigmentation changed to green — similar to her clones — and her biotic abilities became unstable. She also mentions disconcerting dreams of her time with the Thorian."

Saxed from the wiki. Same story with Parasini. Renegades get absolutely nothing in both instances.

Modifié par Marionetten, 07 septembre 2011 - 03:12 .

[Dave of Canada]

Golden Owl wrote...

You going to need to clarify this one for me.

It's more prominent if you've killed the Council, though there's some references to it when you've saved them.

Humanity has taken control of the Council, causing much outrage among the former Council races and causing much dissent. We're often hearing about how the Galaxy is falling apart due to their protests and each species is doing their own thing with the new Council in charge.

A few examples:
Humanity has some ties with the Elcor and the Volus, often doing things in cooperation with them and releasing political statements with them. Volus support the Human Council in exchange for a planet.

Turians are (apparently) attacking human colonies, Horizon is also blamed on Turian dissidents and the Turians tell humanity that they've seized power so it's their problem so they have to fix it. Though it's unclear if they have reason to believe this, the Turian representative's statement doesn't seem to imply anything good.

Turians are building their fleet, increasing their productivity and violating the Treaty of Shanxi which limited how much they could expand their army. This is causing a cold war which has humanity increasing their productivity to match the Turians.

I'm recalling another few mentions of some species thinking of pulling away from the Council entirely.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 septembre 2011 - 03:17 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Marionetten wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Whoa...what extra quest?

"If Shepard allowed Shiala to live after killing the Thorian, she can be found on Illium, investigating a medical contract made with the colonists of Zhu's Hope. Shepard can offer to negotiate with the company on Shiala's behalf. In the months after her exposure to the Thorian, Shiala's skin pigmentation changed to green — similar to her clones — and her biotic abilities became unstable. She also mentions disconcerting dreams of her time with the Thorian."

Saxed from the wiki. Same story with Parasini. Renegades get absolutely nothing in both instances.

You can still do both of those quests.

Killing Shiala you just get some random colonist instead, and Parasini is just pissed at you.

[TheOptimist]

Marionetten wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

We really need more renegade content as that's the crux of the issue here. Paragons are most certainly favored by design as they get more content to enjoy. Spara Shiala and you get an extra quest. Kill Shiala and you get absolutely nothing. This needs to change. Every choice should be rewarded with its own consequences otherwise we just end up with empty and meaningless choices.

Whoa...what extra quest?

"If Shepard allowed Shiala to live after killing the Thorian, she can be found on Illium,
investigating a medical contract made with the colonists of Zhu's Hope.
Shepard can offer to negotiate with the company on Shiala's behalf. In
the months after her exposure to the Thorian, Shiala's skin pigmentation
changed to green — similar to her clones — and her biotic abilities
became unstable. She also mentions disconcerting dreams of her time with
the Thorian."

Saxed from the wiki. Same story with Parasini. Renegades get absolutely nothing in both instances.

If you kill Shiala, a colonist from Feros shows up with the EXACT SAME QUEST (and it doesn't matter if you killed them all, either), just different dialogue.  For like millionth time, not only does Parasini actually remember if you ruined her investigation, but you also have the option of Renegading Quin into testifying, if memory serves (and then proceeding to blackmail Anoleis, and then turning him in anyway for the giggles. Renegades have some hilarious options).  Parasini being dead isn't Paragon/Renegade, it's a matter of wanting her dead or not.

[Marionetten]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Killing Shiala you just get some random colonist instead, and Parasini is just pissed at you.

That's only if you didn't kill Parasini. If you killed her the quest doesn't show up. And true, I was mistaken about that one but that outcome is rather strange if you opted to wipe out the colonists and Shiala. Obviously both consequences are tailored for paragons over renegades. Why not give different consequences for different actions?

TheOptimist wrote...

Parasini being dead isn't Paragon/Renegade, it's a matter of wanting her dead or not.

The choice which results in her death rewards you the most renegade points out of all of them effectively making it a renegade choice.

Modifié par Marionetten, 07 septembre 2011 - 03:24 .