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[Zu Long]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

And you're killing an innocent person to salve your own fear. Or bloodlust, depending on how you justify it to yourself.

Rachni cannot be treated like people, they are not like you and me.

Based on what? She thinks, craves freedom the way I would, begs for her life the way I would. A different shape, but she and her kin still bleed when pricked.

Sure, but even the lowliest animal craves survival. The difference here is exactly as Sebo said: the rachni are true aliens; their very nature as a hivemind species makes them incompatible with ours (or the rest of the galactic community, if you will).

Their nature as a hivemind makes them incompatible...how? They are different, but there is no inherrent threat there save that which you invent to justify your vision of them as the other.

[sorentoft]

It is not really surprising that you lose the inclusion of certain people if you just kill them all.

[Someone With Mass]

Seboist wrote...

It is a right thing to do. It's more justified than wiping out a fire ant mound on somebody's lawn.

I think rachni are more than ants, though.

Also, if we should kill anything based on their violent history, then there wouldn't be much left of anything.

All races have a violent history at one point. That does not make all of them rabid killers.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Zu Long wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

And you're killing an innocent person to salve your own fear. Or bloodlust, depending on how you justify it to yourself.

No, I kill her to meet the requirements of the responsibility given to me.

You kill her in order to AVOID responsibility for what she might do. Fear in trumped-up clothing.

The responsiblity of a Specter is to safeguard the galaxy (or some specificly, the council races).
That is theri charge, that is their duty.
Taking on resposibility for the deeds of others is NOT their job, but it will happen if they mess their job up. Simply put, if Rachnii go hostiel, Shep would be put on trial. The galatic community would consider he failed in his duties.


That's not to say that saving the queen doesn't have it's own merits (more forces agaisnt the reapers)

[Zu Long]

Future Guy wrote...

Zu Long wrote...
We do know for certain that she's been in a cage her whole life, and hasn't done anything wrong- ie innocent. And killing someone for something they haven't done yet is calculating, not logical. There's a difference.

It's quite logical to assume that the Queen can be the precursor to a future Rachni army.   It's also logical to assume that the possibility exists that this army may indeed be hostile like it was before, and start another war.  We know now that this isn't the case, but that's meta-gaming.  

All the assumptions and maybes and cans in the world don't erase the fact that you are murdering an innocent. Try as you might, your justifications are but hollow constructs built to overshadow the truth of the situation- Whatever MAY happen, what you KNOW is that she personally has done nothing to deserve death.

[Zu Long]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...

Lets hope you never hold the lives of others in your hands.

The goes for you more than it does for him. I certainly don't want my life in your hands. You are liable to get me eaten by space bugs or elder machine gods all so you can say you "did the right thing". Screw you.

As opposed those who will kill me for the possiblity that I might be a mass murderer some day.

Exactly.

It is not 'right' to kill someone because they have a potential to be a threat. Everyone has the potential to be a threat.

A comparison is not the Germans or Japanese, it is a man with a gun pointed at me. Do I shoot him or not?

The Chinese have nuclear weapons pointed at you, will you shoot the next one you see?

[Zu Long]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

You don't know what will happen

Of-course not and that's why I need to take the most safe course of action. With so many lives at stake I can't afford to allow for uncertainty.

Imaginary lives weighed against the very REAL life you are obliterating.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Zu Long wrote...

Their nature as a hivemind makes them incompatible...how? They are different, but there is no inherrent threat there save that which you invent to justify your vision of them as the other.

Because there is no rachni individual, there's just the queen and her will, nothing more.

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

I don't like the fact that if I'm a nice guy I can't sail off with SIE or Sis, saving Mina requires me to take her. The same for Scarlet, saving her REQUIRES me to sail off with her.

Fair enough, as I had that exact same complaint about the endgame.

[Dave of Canada]

Rogue Unit wrote...

Lets hope you never hold the lives of others in your hands.

Not about me but something which influenced me greatly to see the world as I do now.

A man had befriended a soldier one afternoon, he talked at great length and the soldier felt like this man was his friend. Everybody else felt uncomfortable with how close they were getting, the soldier (being an absolute moron) trusted the man and walked him near where the soldiers were stationed.

Later that night, the man was trespassing and coming close to the camp and the soldier (who tried to tell him to turn back, though changed his mind after two tries) told the guard (who was telling the man to turn back) to not shoot him. "He's a good guy" and all those bull**** excuses I often hear on these forums, the guard put his gun down and my cousin came out in time to see this.

He shot the man, he did what the guard was supposed to do. The man was unarmed, or so he thought when he was freaking out that he'd be court martialled. He wasn't, the man had weapons on him and had explosives. You know who got into the deep bull****? It wasn't him, it was the two guys who disobeyed orders and their training.

What would've happened if that man was innocent? An entirely different scenario, sure. Yet he wasn't wrong, he did what was necessary and managed to save many lives in the process. He killed somebody, it wasn't an easy decision for him and he still freaks out about it.

Know what? He's a damn bloody hero. Those other two morons (which got punished but not severely enough, imo) were absolutely loathed by the rest of the unit, they could've killed everybody in the camp. I'm in the camp which supports what my cousin did (some family members look him at absolute disgust for what he could've done (because of "innocence")), told him he shouldn't bother on the trivial details of "innocent" because had he done so... he'd be dead.

So don't judge people for their actions with "innocence", if you're not going to do the hard decision then you shouldn't be put in a position where you have to pick at all.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 septembre 2011 - 07:02 .

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...

Lets hope you never hold the lives of others in your hands.

The goes for you more than it does for him. I certainly don't want my life in your hands. You are liable to get me eaten by space bugs or elder machine gods all so you can say you "did the right thing". Screw you.

As opposed those who will kill me for the possiblity that I might be a mass murderer some day.

Exactly.

It is not 'right' to kill someone because they have a potential to be a threat. Everyone has the potential to be a threat.

A comparison is not the Germans or Japanese, it is a man with a gun pointed at me. Do I shoot him or not?

Are we still talking about the Rachni here? The Rachni do not have a literal or metaphorical gun pointing at us. It's just like the Germans and the Japanese; they started a devastating war in the past. Therefore, to prevent them from ever starting another war, they should all be killed?

[Kaiser Shepard]

Zu Long wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

You don't know what will happen

Of-course not and that's why I need to take the most safe course of action. With so many lives at stake I can't afford to allow for uncertainty.

Imaginary lives weighed against the very REAL life you are obliterating.

The hundreds, thousands already existing lives Saph weighs again the newly created ones that you and you alone are responsible for.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 07 septembre 2011 - 07:03 .

[Rogue Unit]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...

Lets hope you never hold the lives of others in your hands.

Not about me but something which influenced me greatly to see the world as I do now.

A man had befriended a soldier one afternoon, he talked at great length and the soldier felt like this man was his friend. Everybody else felt uncomfortable with how close they were getting, the soldier (being an absolute moron) trusted the man and walked him near where the soldiers were stationed.

Later that night, the man was trespassing and coming close to the camp and the soldier (who tried to tell him to turn back, though changed his mind after two tries) told the guard (who was telling the man to turn back) to not shoot him. "He's a good guy" and all those bull**** excuses I often hear on these forums, the guard put his gun down and my cousin came out in time to see this.

He shot the man, he did what the guard was supposed to do. The man was unarmed, or so he thought when he was freaking out that he'd be court martialled. He wasn't, the man had weapons on him and had explosives. You know who got into the deep bull****? It wasn't him, it was the two guys who disobeyed orders and their training.

What would've happened if that man was innocent? An entirely different scenario, sure. Yet he wasn't wrong, he did what was necessary and managed to save many lives in the process. He killed somebody, it wasn't an easy decision for him and he still freaks out about it.

Know what? He's a damn bloody hero. Those other two morons (which got punished but not severely enough, imo) were absolutely loathed by the rest of the unit, they could've killed everybody in the camp. I'm in the camp which supports what my cousin did (some family members look him at absolute disgust for what he could've done (because of "innocence")), told him he shouldn't bother on the trivial details of "innocent" because had he done so... he'd be dead.

So don't judge people for their actions with "innocence", if you're not going to do the hard decision then you shouldn't be put in a position where you have to pick at all.

Except this man was trespassing. The Rachni Queen wasn't. She was a prisoner, an innocent prisoner.

[Zu Long]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Their nature as a hivemind makes them incompatible...how? They are different, but there is no inherrent threat there save that which you invent to justify your vision of them as the other.

Because there is no rachni individual, there's just the queen and her will, nothing more.

That doesn't actually answer my question.

Modifié par Zu Long, 07 septembre 2011 - 07:09 .

[Golden Owl]

Dave of Canada wrote...

@Optomist: I feel like we're only going to go around in circles. /shrug

Golden Owl wrote...

Wow!!........That's just cold blooded murder...deliberately luring the Turian fleets into a death trap.

It's assuring there's no political fallout after the Reapers are dead and done. We're going to need to rebuild, repopulate and make sure everybody is strong enough to hold their own. Turians hold themselves as proud soldiers and every citizen of theirs, at least from what I understand, have military training and discipline.

Considering we're going to have to deal with the war which has been brewing since Mass Effect 2, I can't allow Turian supremacy as their extremely large fleets and larger military force (and civilians can become military quite quickly in this case) can probably devastate the remnants of civilization.

Eliminate the Turian fleet and you've solved multiple problems with the post-war universe and the Council can spin the story to make Turians seem like the galaxy's heroes, they'd be extremely proud and content with the title that they'd be less interested in waging war with the universe and more interested in enjoying their pride and rebuilding themselves from (near) scratch.

The Galaxy isn't going to be pretty after the Reapers are defeated either, Turians have proven themselves adept at quickly adapting new technologies too.

How could we leave the most politically unstable fleet with the most ships, training and overall possible soldiers who're capable of adapting technologies (which will be littering all known space if we defeat the Reapers) unchecked?

How many more would die in the resulting war?

Asari military is disorganized and could be defeated, despite their stronger ships.
Salarians can be bought by humanity.
Krogan will be manipulated through Shepard's ties with Wrex.
Vorcha / Hanar / Elcor / Drell don't pose any threat.

I can see your trying to kill two birds with one stone here, weakening the Turian force and by the same token attempting to placate them into acceptance of this fate through a play on perspective..."No, you are not victims of an en masse' wipe out, you are the Galactic heroes against an otherwise unstoppable force".....You would be playing with fire on that one Dave, it could just as easily swing the other way and them seeing it for what it really is, an attempt to weaken them, that would p*ss off many more species than just the Turians and backfire, it ending up as Humans being seen as too great a Galactic threat....not a postion we want to be in either.

So assuming the Turians would behave as Humans would in the same situation, going for complete power whilst the system is in a weakened position, as you state you believe they would and I concur. I can see why drastic action against such an occurence would be a necessity and if the Turians hold an unequaled amount of power, diplomacy won't get far....considering the animosity already present between Turians and Humans, the Humans would have nothing to bargain with.....So yes, there is certainly a problem.

As to what to do to shift that power balance...I still do see quite a problem in your suggested method...just rides too much on galactic perspective, it's a huge risk, could lead to the complete undoing of the Human Race....but I do agree either the Turian forces would need to be weakened or the Human forces raised to similar levels...balance the power out....How to do this without such a massive risk, I don't know, it would certainly need to be insideous and well planned out.

[Dave of Canada]

Rogue Unit wrote...

Except this man was trespassing. The Rachni Queen wasn't. She was a prisoner, an innocent prisoner.

And you're trusting the word of a creature who's children are trying to kill you, who's cornered with a gun at her head and who has a history of violence which very well almost destroyed the galaxy (which is made worse by having the memories of the people who commited the violence inserted into her mind on birth), can control individuals and her only excuse is that her ancestors were indoctrinated (something which she might've just overheard from Benezia).

Yet, she's innocent and deserves a second chance? All the knowledge and experiences gained from her mother serves no purpose? She might not be playing you the fool while you have the gun in your hand, ready to backstab you after you put the gun away?

[Kaiser Shepard]

Zu Long wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Their nature as a hivemind makes them incompatible...how? They are different, but there is no inherrent threat there save that which you invent to justify your vision of them as the other.

Because there is no rachni individual, there's just the queen and her will, nothing more.

That doesn't actually answer my question.

It does, actually; it should show you how with such immense difference, conflict is inevitable.

And at that point, do you have the krogan ready and willing to fight for you (or at your side)? Are you willing to take responsibility for the lives that will be lost?

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 07 septembre 2011 - 07:17 .

[Rogue Unit]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

And you're killing an innocent person to salve your own fear. Or bloodlust, depending on how you justify it to yourself.

No, I kill her to meet the requirements of the responsibility given to me.

You kill her in order to AVOID responsibility for what she might do. Fear in trumped-up clothing.

The responsiblity of a Specter is to safeguard the galaxy (or some specificly, the council races).
That is theri charge, that is their duty.
Taking on resposibility for the deeds of others is NOT their job, but it will happen if they mess their job up. Simply put, if Rachnii go hostiel, Shep would be put on trial. The galatic community would consider he failed in his duties.


That's not to say that saving the queen doesn't have it's own merits (more forces agaisnt the reapers)

Considering the council is pissed at Shepard no matter how you handle the Queen, I think that's BioWare's way of telling us there's no right or wrong decision from the perspective of a Spectre.

[Zu Long]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...

Lets hope you never hold the lives of others in your hands.

Not about me but something which influenced me greatly to see the world as I do now.

A man had befriended a soldier one afternoon, he talked at great length and the soldier felt like this man was his friend. Everybody else felt uncomfortable with how close they were getting, the soldier (being an absolute moron) trusted the man and walked him near where the soldiers were stationed.

Later that night, the man was trespassing and coming close to the camp and the soldier (who tried to tell him to turn back, though changed his mind after two tries) told the guard (who was telling the man to turn back) to not shoot him. "He's a good guy" and all those bull**** excuses I often hear on these forums, the guard put his gun down and my cousin came out in time to see this.

He shot the man, he did what the guard was supposed to do. The man was unarmed, or so he thought when he was freaking out that he'd be court martialled. He wasn't, the man had weapons on him and had explosives. You know who got into the deep bull****? It wasn't him, it was the two guys who disobeyed orders and their training.

What would've happened if that man was innocent? An entirely different scenario, sure. Yet he wasn't wrong, he did what was necessary and managed to save many lives in the process. He killed somebody, it wasn't an easy decision for him and he still freaks out about it.

Know what? He's a damn bloody hero. Those other two morons (which got punished but not severely enough, imo) were absolutely loathed by the rest of the unit, they could've killed everybody in the camp. I'm in the camp which supports what my cousin did (some family members look him at absolute disgust for what he could've done (because of "innocence")), told him he shouldn't bother on the trivial details of "innocent" because had he done so... he'd be dead.

So don't judge people for their actions with "innocence", if you're not going to do the hard decision then you shouldn't be put in a position where you have to pick at all.

Good on your cousin. Shall I go find a story about a cop who shot a kid with a toy gun in response? It might take me a whole 15 seconds on google.

[Someone With Mass]

Rogue Unit wrote...

Considering the council is pissed at Shepard no matter how you handle the Queen, I think that's BioWare's way of telling us there's no right or wrong decision from the perspective of a Spectre.

I think we should've had the option to call the Council first and ask them for advice.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

You know that for sure? Have you read the script?

If I read the script it would be meta-gaming. That would make me a Paragon. I play Renegade.

You have proven you don't understand the concept of meta-gaming, you don't get to judge others.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 07 septembre 2011 - 07:20 .

[Rogue Unit]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...

Considering the council is pissed at Shepard no matter how you handle the Queen, I think that's BioWare's way of telling us there's no right or wrong decision from the perspective of a Spectre.

I think we should've had the option to call the Council first and ask them for advice.

Nah, the phone is all the way back on the Normandy and that idiot ball weighs a ton.