549 réponses à ce sujet

[Zu Long]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Their nature as a hivemind makes them incompatible...how? They are different, but there is no inherrent threat there save that which you invent to justify your vision of them as the other.

Because there is no rachni individual, there's just the queen and her will, nothing more.

That doesn't actually answer my question.

It does, actually; it should show you how with such immense difference, conflict is inevitable.

And at that point, do you have the krogan ready and willing to fight for you (or at your side)? Are you willing to take responsibility for the lives that will be lost?

It doesn't actually. I asked how that makes them incompatible. They are alien and strange-looking. So are the Hanar. You have yet to demonstrate how that makes conflict inevitable.

And yes, if that comes to pass, I'll be the first one down the hole after her lying ass. But I go back to the wisdom of a certain Marine general who sent notice to a group of possible hostiles or friendlies-

"But I am pleading with you, with tears in my eyes; if you **** with me, I WILL KILL YOU ALL."

Modifié par Zu Long, 07 septembre 2011 - 07:58 .

[Zu Long]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...

Except this man was trespassing. The Rachni Queen wasn't. She was a prisoner, an innocent prisoner.

And you're trusting the word of a creature who's children are trying to kill you, who's cornered with a gun at her head and who has a history of violence which very well almost destroyed the galaxy (which is made worse by having the memories of the people who commited the violence inserted into her mind on birth), can control individuals and her only excuse is that her ancestors were indoctrinated (something which she might've just overheard from Benezia).

Yet, she's innocent and deserves a second chance? All the knowledge and experiences gained from her mother serves no purpose? She might not be playing you the fool while you have the gun in your hand, ready to backstab you after you put the gun away?

She deserves a first chance. She won't get a second one.

[GodWood]

Probably my two favourite responses in regards to the rachni decision.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Had them exterminated. A regrettable necessity. But their very nature makes them very hard if impossible to integrate into a galactic community, and it makes them a very potential short and long term threat.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...
Pray tell what nature that is? Would it happen to be the same that we have seen evidenced in the Krogan and the Turians, or even the Batarians? 3 other species that are arguable 'integrated' into a galactic community

Unless you're planing to have a Queen sit in an embassy (highly unlikely, unless you want a rachni infestation), there is virtually no way to conduct diplomacy and negotiations with them. Or unless you are planning to give them sentient pseudo-slaves, with little idea on the effects on their nervous system (and I had no idea this was even possible in ME1). That alone makes them very difficult to integrate. By comparision, Batarians and Krogans are individuals, they can be negotiated with and the reason relations fell apart was not solely their doing (though they had their fair share of idiocy). Relations can improve and they can be integrated. Furthermore, they can participate in galactic trade and other such activities. The Rachni provide nothing, but can reproduce even faster than Krogans.

EDIT: Hmm, and I think it answers Zu's question.

Modifié par GodWood, 07 septembre 2011 - 07:28 .

[Someone With Mass]

Rogue Unit wrote...

Nah, the phone is all the way back on the Normandy and that idiot ball weighs a ton.

True.

But hey. Tell me about a politician that hasn't been considered an idiot by anyone. 

[Kaiser Shepard]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...

Considering the council is pissed at Shepard no matter how you handle the Queen, I think that's BioWare's way of telling us there's no right or wrong decision from the perspective of a Spectre.

I think we should've had the option to call the Council first and ask them for advice.

If we'd ask for their advice, you'd either have the rachni queen talked to death, bombed to death, or the salarians creating a whole new problem.

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

You know that for sure? Have you read the script?

If I read the script it would be meta-gaming. That would make me a Paragon. I play Renegade.

You have proven you don't understand the concept of meta-gaming, you don't get to judge others.

I'm pretty sure she just got it spot on.



And Godwood, thanks for helping me there. Saves me a lot of typing.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 07 septembre 2011 - 07:30 .

[Golden Owl]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...

Lets hope you never hold the lives of others in your hands.

Not about me but something which influenced me greatly to see the world as I do now.

A man had befriended a soldier one afternoon, he talked at great length and the soldier felt like this man was his friend. Everybody else felt uncomfortable with how close they were getting, the soldier (being an absolute moron) trusted the man and walked him near where the soldiers were stationed.

Later that night, the man was trespassing and coming close to the camp and the soldier (who tried to tell him to turn back, though changed his mind after two tries) told the guard (who was telling the man to turn back) to not shoot him. "He's a good guy" and all those bull**** excuses I often hear on these forums, the guard put his gun down and my cousin came out in time to see this.

He shot the man, he did what the guard was supposed to do. The man was unarmed, or so he thought when he was freaking out that he'd be court martialled. He wasn't, the man had weapons on him and had explosives. You know who got into the deep bull****? It wasn't him, it was the two guys who disobeyed orders and their training.

What would've happened if that man was innocent? An entirely different scenario, sure. Yet he wasn't wrong, he did what was necessary and managed to save many lives in the process. He killed somebody, it wasn't an easy decision for him and he still freaks out about it.

Know what? He's a damn bloody hero. Those other two morons (which got punished but not severely enough, imo) were absolutely loathed by the rest of the unit, they could've killed everybody in the camp. I'm in the camp which supports what my cousin did (some family members look him at absolute disgust for what he could've done (because of "innocence")), told him he shouldn't bother on the trivial details of "innocent" because had he done so... he'd be dead.

So don't judge people for their actions with "innocence", if you're not going to do the hard decision then you shouldn't be put in a position where you have to pick at all.

Though by the very same token, a dear Vietnam Vet friend of mine told me the story of why one of the young men in his unit ended up breaking down....They enter a village, a small child is running towards them holding something in his hand, the young man who broke down did as trained, shot and killed the child in case the child was holding a grenade, it turned out the child was holding a tennis ball....The young man wasn't blamed, he had done as he had needed to do, but it didn't change any facts in his own mind....

Not everything is as it appears....that's something that needs to be remembered in itself.

[khordlambert]

Zu Long wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...

Lets hope you never hold the lives of others in your hands.

Not about me but something which influenced me greatly to see the world as I do now.

A man had befriended a soldier one afternoon, he talked at great length and the soldier felt like this man was his friend. Everybody else felt uncomfortable with how close they were getting, the soldier (being an absolute moron) trusted the man and walked him near where the soldiers were stationed.

Later that night, the man was trespassing and coming close to the camp and the soldier (who tried to tell him to turn back, though changed his mind after two tries) told the guard (who was telling the man to turn back) to not shoot him. "He's a good guy" and all those bull**** excuses I often hear on these forums, the guard put his gun down and my cousin came out in time to see this.

He shot the man, he did what the guard was supposed to do. The man was unarmed, or so he thought when he was freaking out that he'd be court martialled. He wasn't, the man had weapons on him and had explosives. You know who got into the deep bull****? It wasn't him, it was the two guys who disobeyed orders and their training.

What would've happened if that man was innocent? An entirely different scenario, sure. Yet he wasn't wrong, he did what was necessary and managed to save many lives in the process. He killed somebody, it wasn't an easy decision for him and he still freaks out about it.

Know what? He's a damn bloody hero. Those other two morons (which got punished but not severely enough, imo) were absolutely loathed by the rest of the unit, they could've killed everybody in the camp. I'm in the camp which supports what my cousin did (some family members look him at absolute disgust for what he could've done (because of "innocence")), told him he shouldn't bother on the trivial details of "innocent" because had he done so... he'd be dead.

So don't judge people for their actions with "innocence", if you're not going to do the hard decision then you shouldn't be put in a position where you have to pick at all.

Good on your cousin. Shall I go find a story about a cop who shot a kid with a toy gun in response? It might take me a whole 15 seconds on google.

Not even 15. Why do you think toy guns have to be bright orange these days?

[Zu Long]

Future Guy wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Future Guy wrote...

Zu Long wrote...
We do know for certain that she's been in a cage her whole life, and hasn't done anything wrong- ie innocent. And killing someone for something they haven't done yet is calculating, not logical. There's a difference.

It's quite logical to assume that the Queen can be the precursor to a future Rachni army.   It's also logical to assume that the possibility exists that this army may indeed be hostile like it was before, and start another war.  We know now that this isn't the case, but that's meta-gaming.  

All the assumptions and maybes and cans in the world don't erase the fact that you are murdering an innocent. Try as you might, your justifications are but hollow constructs built to overshadow the truth of the situation- Whatever MAY happen, what you KNOW is that she personally has done nothing to deserve death.

The innocence of the individual Rachni is irrelevant to my reasoning.  Deserve has nothing to do with my reasoning.  With that said, we don't know that the Rachni is innocent anyway.  Even if she was, this doesn't preclude her to being a precursor to an army of Rachni and a future war.

You're out murdering people all over the galaxy, and you're aboard a ship full of murderers.  No one has the moral high ground in this game.   

I've already established my reasoning as logical.  You've established that you're reasoning is self serving emotion willing to gamble with the lives of others to make yourself feel better.  I described this Paragon reasoning back on page 17.  You challenged it, and now we've come full circle.  

You have not established logic, you've claimed logic while piling assumptions on top of each other. I dare you to name a single person Paragon Shepard has murdered, rather than killed in active self-defense or defense of another, as of Mass Effect 1.

And we do know she's innocent. She's been in that cage her whole existance.
You ignore innocence or guilt at your peril. You've established that you give in to fear rather than face the responsibility of doing what is right. Nothing more.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Zu Long wrote...

You have not established logic, you've claimed logic while piling assumptions on top of each other. I dare you to name a single person Paragon Shepard has murdered, rather than killed in active self-defense or defense of another, as of Mass Effect 1.

And we do know she's innocent. She's been in that cage her whole existance.
You ignore innocence or guilt at your peril. You've established that you give in to fear rather than face the responsibility of doing what is right. Nothing more.

He isn't acting out of fear, he's simply looking at the logic and is able to see the inevitable outcome.

[Zu Long]

GodWood wrote...

Probably my two favourite responses in regards to the rachni decision.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Had them exterminated. A regrettable necessity. But their very nature makes them very hard if impossible to integrate into a galactic community, and it makes them a very potential short and long term threat.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...
Pray tell what nature that is? Would it happen to be the same that we have seen evidenced in the Krogan and the Turians, or even the Batarians? 3 other species that are arguable 'integrated' into a galactic community

Unless you're planing to have a Queen sit in an embassy (highly unlikely, unless you want a rachni infestation), there is virtually no way to conduct diplomacy and negotiations with them. Or unless you are planning to give them sentient pseudo-slaves, with little idea on the effects on their nervous system (and I had no idea this was even possible in ME1). That alone makes them very difficult to integrate. By comparision, Batarians and Krogans are individuals, they can be negotiated with and the reason relations fell apart was not solely their doing (though they had their fair share of idiocy). Relations can improve and they can be integrated. Furthermore, they can participate in galactic trade and other such activities. The Rachni provide nothing, but can reproduce even faster than Krogans.

EDIT: Hmm, and I think it answers Zu's question.

The Rachni appear to be skilled builders since they can apparently construct starships, and their inability to communicate without help is merely a technical gap which can be overcome. If light patterns and subtle body positions can be translated, I have little doubt we can whip up a translator for the rachni.

And why would a queen in an embassy necessitate an "infestation?"

Bottom line- We don't know enough about them to start making black and white statements regarding them. The only thing we KNOW makes relations impossible is killing them all.

[Zu Long]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

You have not established logic, you've claimed logic while piling assumptions on top of each other. I dare you to name a single person Paragon Shepard has murdered, rather than killed in active self-defense or defense of another, as of Mass Effect 1.

And we do know she's innocent. She's been in that cage her whole existance.
You ignore innocence or guilt at your peril. You've established that you give in to fear rather than face the responsibility of doing what is right. Nothing more.

He isn't acting out of fear, he's simply looking at the logic and is able to see the inevitable outcome.

Inevitability has never been established. Therefore it is indeed fear.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Okay this is my first time posting on this topic...

From the unbias point of view this would be a very interesting way to explain to players that the world is not just Black and White. If you want the perfect ending go replay ME1, ME2, and ME3 but dont claim it was your canon run because you know it would be a lie.

From a bias point of view I believe the things I did on my canon playthrough are correct because I involved my heart along with my intellect. I am not ashamed of it and I should not be punished for that. After all I am not Obi Wan continuing to train Anakin... or am I?

In the same respect I would also like some Renegade choices to make it dang near impossible to end up with a good ending... such as keeping CB.

Opinions is all...

[Lee337]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...

Lets hope you never hold the lives of others in your hands.

Not about me but something which influenced me greatly to see the world as I do now.

A man had befriended a soldier one afternoon, he talked at great length and the soldier felt like this man was his friend. Everybody else felt uncomfortable with how close they were getting, the soldier (being an absolute moron) trusted the man and walked him near where the soldiers were stationed.

Later that night, the man was trespassing and coming close to the camp and the soldier (who tried to tell him to turn back, though changed his mind after two tries) told the guard (who was telling the man to turn back) to not shoot him. "He's a good guy" and all those bull**** excuses I often hear on these forums, the guard put his gun down and my cousin came out in time to see this.

He shot the man, he did what the guard was supposed to do. The man was unarmed, or so he thought when he was freaking out that he'd be court martialled. He wasn't, the man had weapons on him and had explosives. You know who got into the deep bull****? It wasn't him, it was the two guys who disobeyed orders and their training.

What would've happened if that man was innocent? An entirely different scenario, sure. Yet he wasn't wrong, he did what was necessary and managed to save many lives in the process. He killed somebody, it wasn't an easy decision for him and he still freaks out about it.

Know what? He's a damn bloody hero. Those other two morons (which got punished but not severely enough, imo) were absolutely loathed by the rest of the unit, they could've killed everybody in the camp. I'm in the camp which supports what my cousin did (some family members look him at absolute disgust for what he could've done (because of "innocence")), told him he shouldn't bother on the trivial details of "innocent" because had he done so... he'd be dead.

So don't judge people for their actions with "innocence", if you're not going to do the hard decision then you shouldn't be put in a position where you have to pick at all.

When training for possible deployment to Iraq/Afghanistan we were that you could not fire on the person unless they used the weapons, even if they had grenades in their hands. In reality I don't know if this directive is followed but just shooting the person because they posessed weapons was a definate no.

In your example, they shot him because he tresspassed. I don't know where this was or when, but it seems unlikely that people would have orders to shoot people who came close to camp. There are other ways to deal with that, with shooting being the last resort. He got lucky if he really was heralded as a hero. He just sounds like he murdered out of fear. Of course, the other two are still idiots for dropping their guns.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Okay this is my first time posting on this topic...

From the unbias point of view this would be a very interesting way to explain to players that the world is not just Black and White. If you want the perfect ending go replay ME1, ME2, and ME3 but dont claim it was your canon run because you know it would be a lie.

From a bias point of view I believe the things I did on my canon playthrough are correct because I involved my heart along with my intellect. I am not ashamed of it and I should not be punished for that. After all I am not Obi Wan continuing to train Anakin... or am I?

In the same respect I would also like some Renegade choices to make it dang near impossible to end up with a good ending... such as keeping CB.

Opinions is all...

I know you posted with the best intentions,but... what?

[Zu Long]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Good on your cousin. Shall I go find a story about a cop who shot a kid with a toy gun in response? It might take me a whole 15 seconds on google.

I'm sure I can dig up plenty of dead cops and their grieving families too. I'd rather not though, for a variety of reasons. Namely that it will be time consuming, difficult, and very very illegal to dig up dead bodies just to win an argument with an idiot on the internet.

Heck, the worst part is it wouldn't help. You'd STILL be losing.

Modifié par Zu Long, 07 septembre 2011 - 07:52 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Zu Long wrote...

The Rachni appear to be skilled builders since they can apparently construct starships, and their inability to communicate without help is merely a technical gap which can be overcome. If light patterns and subtle body positions can be translated, I have little doubt we can whip up a translator for the rachni.

And why would a queen in an embassy necessitate an "infestation?"

Bottom line- We don't know enough about them to start making black and white statements regarding them. The only thing we KNOW makes relations impossible is killing them all.

Okay, just imagine the following theoretical situation: The krogan get reinstated as a Citadel species, but for every krogan that moves to the Citadel, hundreds of mindless varren come with him. Would you approve of such a situation?

[Zu Long]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

The Rachni appear to be skilled builders since they can apparently construct starships, and their inability to communicate without help is merely a technical gap which can be overcome. If light patterns and subtle body positions can be translated, I have little doubt we can whip up a translator for the rachni.

And why would a queen in an embassy necessitate an "infestation?"

Bottom line- We don't know enough about them to start making black and white statements regarding them. The only thing we KNOW makes relations impossible is killing them all.

Okay, just imagine the following theoretical situation: The krogan get reinstated as a Citadel species, but for every krogan that moves to the Citadel, hundreds of mindless varren come with him. Would you approve of such a situation?

Nope. Assuming the varren were under full telepathic control and were there mostly to do things the Krogan couldn't, I'd probably let in a dozen or so.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

The Rachni appear to be skilled builders since they can apparently construct starships, and their inability to communicate without help is merely a technical gap which can be overcome. If light patterns and subtle body positions can be translated, I have little doubt we can whip up a translator for the rachni.

And why would a queen in an embassy necessitate an "infestation?"

Bottom line- We don't know enough about them to start making black and white statements regarding them. The only thing we KNOW makes relations impossible is killing them all.

Okay, just imagine the following theoretical situation: The krogan get reinstated as a Citadel species, but for every krogan that moves to the Citadel, hundreds of mindless varren come with him. Would you approve of such a situation?

They think fish are a waste of life support,why would they let varren onto the Citadel?

[Golden Owl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Though by the very same token, a dear Vietnam Vet friend of mine told me the story of why one of the young men in his unit ended up breaking down....They enter a village, a small child is running towards them holding something in his hand, the young man who broke down did as trained, shot and killed the child in case the child was holding a grenade, it turned out the child was holding a tennis ball....The young man wasn't blamed, he had done as he had needed to do, but it didn't change any facts in his own mind....

Not everything is as it appears....that's something that needs to be remembered in itself.

Your story does not do anything to refute Dave's. All it does is illustrate the mental toll this kind of mentality can take on a person. That's a burden held by anyone who has to make that choice, especially Shepard.

It was more a correlation than a refute...I won't refute a soldiers actions in his/her responsibilities...the correlation being the after effects and ramifications upon the people involved....thus my final sentence.

I am still personally kinda p*ssed that it falls on Sheps shoulders to make that kind of decision (Rachni Queen)...It is really very beyond Sheps scope.... whether he is authorized or not....he really doesn't have enough information either way or historical understanding to make either call.

[Zu Long]

Future Guy wrote...

We're done Zu Long.

It's been a pleasure talking with you.

For my part, I also shall bid this topic a good night.

Modifié par Zu Long, 07 septembre 2011 - 08:01 .

[Omega4RelayResident]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Okay this is my first time posting on this topic...

From the unbias point of view this would be a very interesting way to explain to players that the world is not just Black and White. If you want the perfect ending go replay ME1, ME2, and ME3 but dont claim it was your canon run because you know it would be a lie.

From a bias point of view I believe the things I did on my canon playthrough are correct because I involved my heart along with my intellect. I am not ashamed of it and I should not be punished for that. After all I am not Obi Wan continuing to train Anakin... or am I?

In the same respect I would also like some Renegade choices to make it dang near impossible to end up with a good ending... such as keeping CB.

Opinions is all...

I know you posted with the best intentions,but... what?

I apologize I have a separate window opened to gambits thread.... the phenomenon may be contagious

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 07 septembre 2011 - 08:00 .