16 réponses à ce sujet

[swk3000]

I just finished my DW Rogue play-through, and I still need some achievements. Since I ended up siding with the Mages on my last play-through, I'm going to be siding with the Templars on this one. Now, to me, it wouldn't make much sense for a Mage to side with the Templars, so for RP reasons, I'll be doing a Warrior. For variety, I'll be running a Sword and Shield Warrior, and for the full RP setup, I'm making my first Specialization Templar.

The problem is that I have no idea what to aim for gear-wise. With Rogues, you want boosts to Crit Chance and Crit Damage, with Mages you want boosts to Elemental damage, but what about Warriors? What's the best end-game gear for them?

And if anyone has any advice on running a Templar, I'd be glad to hear it. I think I've got a pretty good handle on the class, but most of my experience is with a Two-Handed warrior, so I'm not quite sure how well that translates to an SnS user.

[thendcomes]

You shouldn't pigeon-hole itemization for classes. Rogues want crit chance and crit damage, but so do mages and warriors. In fact, because Rogues have such easy access to those and their talents boost them so high already, they end up benefiting more from elemental damage. Mages have so much access to elemental damage that they benefit more overall from crit chance and crit damage. Warriors will also benefit from both.

First, are you playing on NM? Magic resistance negatively affects haste in difficulties other than NM.

What's your second spec? Berserkers prioritize willpower over strength. Endgame that should work well with your dependency on active abilities as a Templar. You should have enough strength to have 100% hit on critters (including Heroic Aura) then pour the rest into willpower.

Your main weapon throughout the game will be The Edge of Night. It's spirit damage like your templar abilities and so you will doubly benefit from +spirit bonuses. Your alternate weapon should be Desdemona I believe. If there's another elemental weapon 1h out there I can't think of it right now.

[Darchon_]

Strangely enough , you also want to boost crit chance and elemental damage. Boosting attack speed never hurts either.

Get Edge of Night, Saartareth, or Glandivalis for a sword, Volcanic Shield (with Saartereth) or maybe Shield of the Knight Herself (for the +5% crit chance). Mage's Friend is pretty good if you have the DLC for it.

Get Ring of the Ferryman, for Saartereth or Glandivalis. The normal Rogue accessories otherwise. (lucky eddies, ring of twins, ring of black fox, seven's cinch) You might be able to get some generic items with +% element that will do nicely if you don't have the necessary coin.

As for armor, the golden mask from the DLC looks to be the best helmet, The chestpiece from the second item pack looks excellent as well. Otherwise you can get robes of unblemished cleanliness (for a large investment in magic)
I don't actually know the best boots or gloves for a warrior. I would end up going with the champion's, or something from the DLC

As an aside, I don't recommend getting templar unless you are dead set on it... the other specializations are much better.

[cihimi]

LOL @ robed warrior

[Darchon_]

don't laugh, it's quite strong. +24% damage is a pretty big boost. Anyhow, most of the templars in the game are robed warriors

I can't find an example warrior setup using the RoUC, but here's an archer build: http://social.biowar...8/index/6653090

[Mocker22]

The Robes are great but I will mention that they don't have spirirt damage, and you will use edge of night ALOT. I've been playing around with the idea of a total crit spec warrior. (FU bioware fix sunder bastards!) but anyhoo, jewelry might be something like Puzzle ring of black fox, graven circle, lucky eddies, and seven deadly. New DLC chestpiece and just use a mix of elemntal weapons, for 1h that means Edge of Night, Glandivalis, and Satareth.

If your not on Nightmare, a good option is using Sataareth and getting tons of +Fire dmg gear. like Ring of Ferryman, Eye of Blue, Volcanic Shield, Rbes of Clealiness, etc.

[swk3000]

@chimi: I'm not planning on using Robes, but I will admit that Darchon_ is right. The Robes of Umblemished Cleanliness provide a very large damage boost to any elemental weapon (as long as that element isn't Spirit, of course). Glandivalis, for example, jumps from 33 damage to 41 damage just with the robes. If you also pick up the Ring of the Ferryman, it jumps to 49 damage. And you've still got 6 slots to mess around with, so you can pump the damage even higher if you like.

@thendcomes: I'm playing on Normal. I'm don't play on the higher difficulty settings unless there's an achievement for it. Also, while I understand that all classes want crit chance and crit damage, to my eyes, at least, Rogues get better returns by focusing on those than the other classes do. Besides, it's hard not to pigeon-hole gear for classes when everyone already does it. In my Rogue thread, when asking about the best equipment, the list I was given was all items with Crit Chance and Crit Damage. As for Mages, they don't deal physical damage at all unless their staves deal physical damage; all their spells are elemental. And everyone is going on about the Robes of Unblemished Cleanliness, the Ring of the Ferryman, and I heard that the Apostate's Mask is the single-best Mage headpiece in the game. What do these all have in common? They all offer large boosts to elemental damage. While I won't deny that other stat increases are useful, everyone else already tends to pigeon-hole gear bonuses for classes. Besides, it makes choosing equipment much easier.

As for Elemental one-handed weapons, there's also Glandivalis (Electricity) and Sataareth (Fire).

For my second spec, I'm actually planning on going Reaver. At first glance, it doesn't fit RP wise, but Templars do use phylacteries to track rogue mages (something I find to be a bit hypocritical, since the Reaver spec is basically the Warrior form of Blood Mage).

@Darchon_: I am dead-set on Templar. I'm fully aware that the Reaver and Berserker are better. However, just because a spec isn't the absolute best doesn't mean that it's not worth running. In fact, I'm starting to wonder how much chance people really give the Templar and Duelist specs. Are they considered not worth taking because they're bad, or because the other specs are better? If it's the first, that's fine, but if it's the second, then people really need to understand that just because the math shows that something else is more powerful doesn't mean the less powerful stuff isn't worth using. One really needs to examine specs based on their own merits, not based on how they measure up against the other specs.

[Darchon_]

swk3000 wrote...

@thendcomes: I'm playing on Normal. I'm don't play on the higher difficulty settings unless there's an achievement for it. Also, while I understand that all classes want crit chance and crit damage, to my eyes, at least, Rogues get better returns by focusing on those than the other classes do. Besides, it's hard not to pigeon-hole gear for classes when everyone already does it. In my Rogue thread, when asking about the best equipment, the list I was given was all items with Crit Chance and Crit Damage. As for Mages, they don't deal physical damage at all unless their staves deal physical damage; all their spells are elemental. And everyone is going on about the Robes of Unblemished Cleanliness, the Ring of the Ferryman, and I heard that the Apostate's Mask is the single-best Mage headpiece in the game. What do these all have in common? They all offer large boosts to elemental damage. While I won't deny that other stat increases are useful, everyone else already tends to pigeon-hole gear bonuses for classes. Besides, it makes choosing equipment much easier.

Actually, Ring of the Ferryman is outclassed by both of the expensive rogue rings for a mage. Lucky Eddie's Talisman also is the best a mage. This is because for every additional +%element bonus item you have, the next one you add will have less effect.
Example: Once you get +50% fire damage from talents, adding the additional +24% for the ring only gives 16% more damage. Once you add in the +24% from the robes, the ring only gives 13.7% more damage.

Since the Warrior doesn't have +50% elemental damage from talents, the ring actually does give +24% damage.
Critical Chance works in the same way. The less critical chance that you have, the more that small increases in critical chance will increase your average damage over time.

swk3000 wrote...
@Darchon_: I am dead-set on Templar. I'm fully aware that the Reaver and Berserker are better. However, just because a spec isn't the absolute best doesn't mean that it's not worth running. In fact, I'm starting to wonder how much chance people really give the Templar and Duelist specs. Are they considered not worth taking because they're bad, or because the other specs are better? If it's the first, that's fine, but if it's the second, then people really need to understand that just because the math shows that something else is more powerful doesn't mean the less powerful stuff isn't worth using. One really needs to examine specs based on their own merits, not based on how they measure up against the other specs.

Templar works fairly well with Reaver. It doesn't work as well with Beserker because they both use a lot of stamina. The problem with Templar (and Deulist and Spirit healer) is that it is a defensive oriented specialization. The saying "the best defense is a good offense" is especially true in this game due to the fundemental way the game works. You will end up having an easier time beating the game if you go with the other specs, I guarantee it. But.... you might have more fun if you use your templar spec to prevent enemies from doing any casting. That I leave up to you.

[swk3000]

I could go Reaver/Templar for this character; the decision to go Templar first was more a spur-of-the-moment thing, based on the fact that I'll be siding with the Templars. However, I also don't like the Beserker spec. I won't deny it's power (that would be stupid), but it requires more micro-managing than I'm willing to do (I'm mainly thinking of Adrenaline here). Reaver works better for my tastes, and I haven't given Templar a fair chance yet (part of the reason I want to go with it first; I'll hit level early in Act 1, so it will give me most of the game to work with it and see how I like it).

As for the elemental damage bonuses, what order are those calculated in? Because that actually makes a difference in what your final damage bonus is. Is it largest to smallest? Or is there a specific order that the game follows? Does it start with a specific slot, then progress in a certain order?

Finally, Mage's only get +25% elemental damage from talents, not 50%. Just to nit-pick.

[mr_afk]

For fire damage you can get +50%. When firestorms are as powerful as they are, min-maxing fire damage in particular works pretty well. And yes, check out thendcomes nerd math (http://social.biowar...5/index/8060201) for the basis of why certain things are better.

The reason why crit-chance and crit-damage is still useful for rogues is because the items they have available (locked rogue gear) is amazing stats-wise. You won't find anything close to the stealth boots or the champion set/dlc armour. Additionally, getting crit chance from gear allows a greater focus on cunning (which is usually better for an assassin with devious harm).
So for non-elemental or spirit rogues it becomes better to use rogue armour instead of generic gear, while for a nature DW rogue or a fire archer using +%elemental damage gives the highest return. But yes, in terms of generic armour (not considering uniques) it's probably a safe bet to avoid cross-class armour unless you know what's going on (e.g. prebuff like crazy)

Warriors in particular have pretty crappy armour stats-wise. They give things like health which is hardly necessary. That's why improving crit-chance/damage and elemental damage for warriors makes the largest difference.


In regards to your specs, I wouldn't say that a templar is necessarily a bad thing. However I wouldn't focus too much on it (which you might have to do if you're role playing or whatever). I often use a pure strength reaver with the templar spec simply because it's a lot easier to use than a berserker and it allows you to load up the sustains.
By skipping a spec until later, you can focus more on getting your vanguard tree, weapon tree, and whatever other odds and ends.
The templar tree has a decent passive (+10% against demons/mages) and holy smite can be pretty beastly. If you were to focus on spirit damage you could potentially get your holy smite even more powerful, but that may involve equipping mage gear.

Anyway, the advantage of berserkers come from their potential for increased base damage (up to ~33% more). You don't really use adrenaline unless you're trying to do something like this (). Mostly berserkers need the least micromanagement because it's like using an autoattacking machine on speed.

If you're playing on normal there isn't that big a need to min-max damage (i suppose there really never is a need) so using a high strength non-berserker and sustains can make up for most the difference. I would recommend focusing on crit chance/damage in terms of accessories - though attire is more your choice. Warrior armour will provide more durability which can be useful I suppose.

Anyway, I can't remember the exact order that the game figures things out, but i think the +%modifiers come later- so after the base damage has been multiplied by the ability's modifier it determines if it's a crit (if so +critical damage%) and if it's of a specific element (+%element). All the tag on numbers (elemental runes, poisons etc) come in last.

Modifié par mr_afk, 05 septembre 2011 - 04:17 .

[AreleX]

? berserker requires almost no micromanagement

the only button you are pressing is barrage, and that's once every 30 seconds

edit: fixed thanks to worst player

Modifié par AreleX, 05 septembre 2011 - 04:36 .

[mr_afk]

*Barrage

(sorry, it was bugging me haha)

[andraip]

As for the order the modifiers are calculated Peter Thomas wrote this 6 months ago (so pre-patch).

[Darchon_]

swk3000 wrote...
As for the elemental damage bonuses, what order are those calculated in? Because that actually makes a difference in what your final damage bonus is. Is it largest to smallest? Or is there a specific order that the game follows? Does it start with a specific slot, then progress in a certain order?

Finally, Mage's only get +25% elemental damage from talents, not 50%. Just to nit-pick.

The for the purposes of crit chance and +%elemental damage the order does not actually matter because they are actually multipliers on the base damage. (A * B == B * A)

Damage = Base + Base*crit chance*crit damage+ elemental bonus*(Base + Base*crit chance*crit damage)

which, when simplified

Damage = Base*(1+crit chance*crit damage)*(1+elemental bonus)

Whenever something modifys the "base damage" the order of operations start to matter because they MUST be applied first as they are additions. For example changing weapon, adding strength, or beserker damage.
Also, the addition of the any damage modifiers such as "+8 damage to Humans" (or any +element runes) always comes at the very end, which makes these modifiers rather weak.

I know this was already answered, but Mages can get +50% fire damage from talents: Elemental Mastery and Pyromancer


Also, MR AFK: what are your stat allocations and gearing for the Arishok battle?

Modifié par Darchon_, 05 septembre 2011 - 02:18 .

[thendcomes]

swk3000 wrote...
@thendcomes: Also, while I understand that all classes want crit chance and crit damage, to my eyes, at least, Rogues get better returns by focusing on those than the other classes do. Besides, it's hard not to pigeon-hole gear for classes when everyone already does it. In my Rogue thread, when asking about the best equipment, the list I was given was all items with Crit Chance and Crit Damage. As for Mages, they don't deal physical damage at all unless their staves deal physical damage; all their spells are elemental. And everyone is going on about the Robes of Unblemished Cleanliness, the Ring of the Ferryman, and I heard that the Apostate's Mask is the single-best Mage headpiece in the game.

Rogues actually get the worst return of the three classes based on what Darchon and Mr. AFK said, it's just that their crit gear is still the best. It's definitely easy to pigeon hole them, but it's good to get out of the habit.

Mages actually have more spells that deal physical than any other element: Stonefist, Crushing Prison, Paralyzing Hemorrhage and Fist of the Maker. Not that they should be the central focus of your min-maxing, but that's just how it is. The fact that crit improves ALL sources of damage makes it very strong compared to increasing one element, but again, this is imbalanced by the relative usefulness of the different spells. 

Just to pick on the examples you used, the Robes of UC and Apostate's Mask are far and away the best mage chest and headpieces, not simply because they have element boosts, but simply because no other gear exists that increases damage as much. If there was a Mage cap that provided 15% crit chance, that would be the best piece in the game without question. 

andraip wrote...

As for the order the modifiers are calculated Peter Thomas wrote this 6 months ago (so pre-patch).

The new patch changed the Berserk bonus to get added in with the base weapon damage.

Modifié par thendcomes, 05 septembre 2011 - 03:29 .

[mr_afk]

Attributes-wise:
- Enough strength to equip desdemona's (~8points or less)
- All the rest into willpower

Items-wise:
- Etched Silverite Belt
- Poisonwood Locket
- Etched Ring of the Twins
- Puzzlering of the Black Fox
- DLC pack 1 (although anything would work really and the second one would be better)

Abilities-wise
- Cleave (+75%)
- Sacrificial Frenzy (+100%)
- Adrenaline (~+30-50%)

Also,
- Mighty Offence Potion (+10%)
- Elemental Weakness (+100%)


So just to test calculations etc,
A level 20 warrior with all the tomes etc has:
20*3 + 2 (Avernus) + 2 (black emporium) + 2 (trinkets) + 10 (fade) = 76 points

From base 19 strength (13 starting +2 chest +1 glove +1 belt + 2 ring) you need 6 points to get to 25
This means that I had 82 willpower (12 starting + 70)
Together this gives a base damage (at full stamina) of [((25-10)/2)+((100+82*5)*0.15) = 12.5 strength + 76.5 from willpower + 17 desdemona's = 106 base damage

So using the formula for assault (assuming no crits):
106*2.55*1.1*1.75*2*1.4*1.1*2=3205

Assuming crits and a crit damage of 63%
106*2.55*1.63*1.1*1.75*2*1.4*1.1*2=5225

Once you factor in the arishok's damage resistance that should be about right! Anyway, I forgot the purpose I was doing this for. I'll stop now haha

Modifié par mr_afk, 05 septembre 2011 - 04:53 .

[Mocker22]

Looks like you were writting a guide on how to WTFPWN the arishok with a warrior??