489 réponses à ce sujet

[KenKenpachi]

Luc0s wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Nope, Rome did this. Greece only "leveraged" this change in culture. Rome changed history. Greece was just a small blip of light in the darkness.

Rome drew a lot of inspiration from the Greek. The Greek was a small nation, yes, but:

- they invented science
- they invented philosophy
- they invented mathmatics
- they invented coins
- and much much more.

The Greek started it all and the Romans just continued on the succes of the Greek.

Someone obviously failed history 101. Most (but not all) of what you listed belonged to the Egyptians, Persians, Chinese, Creatians. Lots of people. Greeks got most of its idea's much as Rome.

Trade or theft.

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 10 septembre 2011 - 06:04 .

[DarkDragon777]

Luc0s wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Nope, Rome did this. Greece only "leveraged" this change in culture. Rome changed history. Greece was just a small blip of light in the darkness.

Rome drew a lot of inspiration from the Greek. The Greek was a small nation, yes, but:

- they invented science
- they invented philosophy
- they invented mathmatics
- they invented coins
- and much much more.

The Greek started it all and the Romans just continued on the succes of the Greek.

Which is what I mean by, as an inferior nation, Greece leveraged Rome to create Western culture.


And you can't be more wrong with your "facts".

Science was already invented by earlier civilizations like Babylon and Egypt. C'mon, you should know that.
They invented early Western philosophy, but not philosophy itself. And seriously, math was already being used by nations like Persia, Babylon, Egypt, etc. Coins were already invented before Greece was Westernized.

[billy the squid]

KenKenpachi wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Nope, Rome did this. Greece only "leveraged" this change in culture. Rome changed history. Greece was just a small blip of light in the darkness.

Rome drew a lot of inspiration from the Greek. The Greek was a small nation, yes, but:

- they invented science
- they invented philosophy
- they invented mathmatics
- they invented coins
- and much much more.

The Greek started it all and the Romans just continued on the succes of the Greek.

Someone obviously failed history 101. Most (but not all) of what you listed belonged to the Egyptians, Persians, Chinese, Creatians. Lots of people. Greeks got most of its idea's much as Rome.

Trade or theft.

The Romans were infact great at adapting things for their own purposes. But, I don't think we should bring the Chinese into this in the years BC, as I believe that the contact was not made until later, it was more a technological convergence, but you are right that Imperial China was very advanced, even in the middle ages in Europe, when the Europeans I believe, stole the formula for gunpowder from the Chinese.

[slimgrin]

The Greeks revolutionized western culture and the Romans added to and spread it across Europe. In medieval times, the churches continued ( ironically) humanism and ancient knowledge as well as being influenced by eastern countries. The Vikings raided Europe, assimilated, and greatly influenced Russian, French, and English culture as well as their concept of laws. American values and our political system reflects all of this.

Modifié par slimgrin, 10 septembre 2011 - 06:12 .

[Wereparrot]

Luc0s wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...



If the fundamental premise of communism is that everyone is equal that makes it an atheist ideology, since when you factor different religions into the mix then everyone is obviously NOT equal.

The liberals have brainwashed themselves into believing equality does not mean being the same.

No, you just don't understand a damn thing about liberalism.

Liberalism is all about equal RIGHTS.

Equal rights =/= everyone being the same.

And from equal rights stem forced representation, censorship, downplaying religion, etc?

I'm not sure about liberalism in the USA but here in Europe liberalism is nothing of the sort you just summed up.

It is though. In the UK there have been cases of people being prosecuted for upholding the values of their religion. And what about the changing of the terms BC and AD to BCE and CE? The common era terms are ridiculous: what's the common era? Whereas BC and AD have an actual meaning, BCE and CE are even offensive to the very groups they aim to appease. It's patronizing. Don't pretend that European liberalism is all sun and roses, because it's not; it's alienating, discriminatory and patronizing.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 10 septembre 2011 - 06:18 .

[billy the squid]

slimgrin wrote...

The Greeks revolutionized western culture and the Romans added to and spread it across Europe. In medieval times, the churches continued ( ironically) humanism and ancient knowledge as well as being influenced by eastern countries. The Vikings raided Europe, assimilated, and greatly influenced Russian, French, and English culture as well as their concept of laws. American values and our political system reflects all of this.

Unfortunately the church also kept a great deal of that knowledge under wraps and in latin, The Church in Europe was as much a political institution and as corrupt as any other European state, more so infact, and retained a stranglehold in medieval Europe for almost 400 years until the Age of Enlightenment allowed scientific and technological innovation to advance once more.

Ironically the Arab states were generally more tolerant, as one can be, in the middle ages and retained more knowledge from the collapsed Roman Empire than their European counterparts, funny how thing change over time isn't it.

[DarkDragon777]

Luc0s wrote...

KenKenpachi wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Nope, Rome did this. Greece only "leveraged" this change in culture. Rome changed history. Greece was just a small blip of light in the darkness.

Rome drew a lot of inspiration from the Greek. The Greek was a small nation, yes, but:

- they invented science
- they invented philosophy
- they invented mathmatics
- they invented coins
- and much much more.

The Greek started it all and the Romans just continued on the succes of the Greek.

Someone obviously failed history 101. Most (but not all) of what you listed belonged to the Egyptians, Persians, Chinese, Creatians. Lots of people. Greeks got most of its idea's much as Rome.

Trade or theft.

Wrong. Pretty much everything I listed certainly comes from the Greek.

- The origin of science is debatable, but the Greek made it big and important.

- The origin of philosophy is from Thales, a Greek from ancient Greece.

- It's true that mathmatics in it's simplest form was invented by the Egyptians, but the Ancient Greek where the first to study and systematically apply mathmatics.

- The Greek invented the coin. The idea of the coin existed prior Ancient Greek, but the Greek were the first to actually base their economic system on it.

- The Greek also invented maps. Some say maps where already used prior Ancient Greece, but there is no real solid proof for that.

- The Greek also invented democracy, something I'm very happy about (only god knows in what kind of world we would live in today without democracy).

 Why does everyone think that every type of government other than democracy is evil? Democracy is weak and corrupt.


And yes, Greeks did make some of those things listed important, but they sure didn't invent any of those things.
The Persian economy was based on coin. The Greeks invented Western philosophy. There's something called Eastern philosophy as well, which the Greeks didn't create. I could also argue the Babylonians made science important.

[DarkDragon777]

Luc0s wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

It is though. In the UK there have been cases of people being prosecuted for upholding the values of their religion. And what about the changing of the terms BC and AD to BCE and CE? The common era terms are ridiculous: what's the common era? Whereas BC and AD have an actual meaning, BCE and CE are even offensive to the very groups they aim to appease. It's patronizing. Don't pretend that European liberalism is all sun and roses, because it's not; it's alienating, discriminatory and patronizing.

I call bulls*t.

The reason why BC and AD are changed into BCE and CE is because BC and AD didn't make sense and it are Christian terms. Not all of us are Christian.

BC is "Before Christ", yet he was (most likely) born 7 BCE and died 30 CE. So clearly "BC" and "AD" doesn't make sense in that regard.

Also, AD is "Anno Domini", which means age of the Lord. This isn't the age of the lord, only to Christians is is. Again, not all of us are Christians. I'm not. So to me this is not "the age of the lord" and ot me "Current Era" makes much more sense.

BCE and CE is more neutral. I don't see whats wrong with that. Seriously, how is "Before Current Era" and "Current Era" offensive?


And please give me one example of liberals prosecuting people for upholding their religious beliefs in the UK. Even if that's true, you can't blame it on Liberalism, you can merely blame it on the individuals in question.


Liberalism stands for freedom of religion and freedom of speech and as a right-wing liberal I value that freedom. If a liberal party surpresses any group of people I simply won't vote for that party because that's not what I as a true liberal stand for.

It depends what kind of liberal you are. Some are against religion, some are not.

[DarkDragon777]

Luc0s wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

It depends what kind of liberal you are. Some are against religion, some are not.

I'd say I'm an economic liberal. I voted for the VVD (Dutch party I live in The Netherlands). The VVD is a conservative central-right liberal party.
Anyone who knows a thing or 2 about Dutch politics and knows what the VVD stands for can guess what kind of liberal I am.

That's a right wing ideology. You must support other kinds of liberalism considering some of the things you've said.

[UpiH]

billy the squid wrote...

 But, I don't think we should bring the Chinese into this in the years BC, as I believe that the contact was not made until later, it was more a technological convergence, but you are right that Imperial China was very advanced, even in the middle ages in Europe, when the Europeans I believe, stole the formula for gunpowder from the Chinese.

People believe what they want to believe. 'nuff said, two words: Silk Road.

[Wereparrot]

Luc0s wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

It is though. In the UK there have been cases of people being prosecuted for upholding the values of their religion. And what about the changing of the terms BC and AD to BCE and CE? The common era terms are ridiculous: what's the common era? Whereas BC and AD have an actual meaning, BCE and CE are even offensive to the very groups they aim to appease. It's patronizing. Don't pretend that European liberalism is all sun and roses, because it's not; it's alienating, discriminatory and patronizing.

I call bulls*t.

The reason why BC and AD are changed into BCE and CE is because BC and AD didn't make sense and it are Christian terms. Not all of us are Christian.

BC is "Before Christ", yet he was (most likely) born 7 BCE and died 30 CE. So clearly "BC" and "AD" doesn't make sense in that regard.

Also, AD is "Anno Domini", which means age of the Lord. This isn't the age of the lord, only to Christians is is. Again, not all of us are Christians. I'm not. So to me this is not "the age of the lord" and ot me "Current Era" makes much more sense.

BCE and CE is more neutral. I don't see whats wrong with that. Seriously, how is "Before Current Era" and "Current Era" offensive?


And please give me one example of liberals prosecuting people for upholding their religious beliefs in the UK. Even if that's true, you can't blame it on Liberalism, you can merely blame it on the individuals in question.


Liberalism stands for freedom of religion and freedom of speech and as a right-wing liberal I value that freedom. If a liberal party surpresses any group of people I simply won't vote for that party because that's not what I as a true liberal stand for.

But what is the common era in relation to? It's the same as BC/AD, but without meaning. Seems to me it would be better if we just had a continuous calender, rather than one that started 2011 years ago for no reason at all. Someone didn't think that one through properly. Our culture is Christian; it's best to leave it that way.

And as for your example of hypocritical 'religious freedom': a while ago a couple were prosecuted for not allowing gays to stay at their B&B. Yeah, so much for religious freedom. That can be traced back to liberalism. In the liberalists' haste to appease all groups so that their is no offence, they will inevitably offend someone. That is why liberalism/communism will never work. Trying to alter our culture to suit all comers is destined to disaster.

[DarkDragon777]

Luc0s wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

That's a right wing ideology. You must support other kinds of liberalism considering some of the things you've said.

What do you mean? I support the VVD and yes that's a right-wing liberal party mainly focussed on the economy and the freedom of the people.

Oh, I assumed you also supported personal liberalism. Nevermind.

[UpiH]

DarkDragon777 wrote...


That's a right wing ideology. You must support other kinds of liberalism considering some of the things you've said.

I don't know, where you're from, but here in Europe the line goes rather between economical issues than freedoms and such issues. More along the lines of Adam Smith and (especially here in Finland) Anders Chydenius.


To confuse a bit more, the X, Y, Z generations which do not know a thing about history copy their libertarisms, xeno- et al phobisms straight from the US bigots.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

As a historian, I agree with Ken's answer about Greeks Sciences. Greeks mostly developed philosophy and mathematics.

And Here is a war going on:

[DarkDragon777]

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

As a historian, I agree with Ken's answer about Greeks Sciences. Greeks mostly developed philosophy and mathematics.

And Here is a war going on:

I'd really credit science to the Babylonians and Egyptians (a little less). The Greeks just vastly improved it.

[UpiH]

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

As a historian, I agree with Ken's answer about Greeks Sciences. Greeks mostly developed philosophy and mathematics.

Really?

Where'd do you think, for example, the concept of zero came to be? Would't it be in any way possible that the far eastern cultures contemplated more on vacuum than the all-practical near-eastern ones?

You have to be in an enermous denial, being able to ignore far eastern cultures - or an outright racist.

Modifié par UpiH, 10 septembre 2011 - 07:01 .

[UpiH]

*************

Modifié par UpiH, 10 septembre 2011 - 07:01 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

As I read some historian's attitude toward Fall of Roman Empire I understood that, It caused because of:
- Upgrading of Barbarian's Forgery and Military Tactics
- Social weakness of Romans caused by low Breed and too many non-roman migrations and slaves.
- The Ineffectiveness of the Empire since 50 years before Constantine.
- Barbarian pillages and plundering throughout empire
- Splitting Empire to eastern and western

Christianity has many benefits to the empire as many tribes savagery was reduced by embracing Christianity.

And Eastern Europe had been ruined mostly from Ottoman Turks, and central Asia nomadic unions like Huns and Mongols

[Russalka]

Is the amount of arguments that stem from just asking how humanity is doing a sign of progress or one of imminent doom?

Every generation fears they are the last one though. I wish people learned history and saw that the doomsday predictions and cynicism over our survival have been around for a while and nothing in particular has come of them.

It does not mean we should relax and let things happen, but it also does not mean we should panic. Of course, it is easy to say something like this while living an area not ravaged by hunger, war or any major disaster. But life will always go on.

The human species is difficult to destroy entirely. The problem would be whether or not you are one the lucky ones to survive if something annoying happens.