489 réponses à ce sujet

[DarkDragon777]

Luc0s wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

classic liberalism isn't necessarily right wing, because most autocratic and totalitarian governments like monarchies and the n@zi party are right wing.

And "Liberalism" in general is considered left wing, so please don't insult me about being American. I actually try my very best to not be ignorant like most of us are.

No sorry, classical liberalism really is central-right, not left at all.

Liberalism is generally considered right-wing in Europe (which is were the original liberalism comes from). Only social-liberalism is really left-wing. All other forms of liberalism is either central or right-wing.

And I'm sorry if I offended you. You seem like a smart and open-minded person, so by no means did I want to offend you.

DarkDragon777 wrote...

You seem to be slightly socially liberal, so when I said "total freedom", I meant that I don't believe in social-liberalism. I apologize for the confusion.

No I'm totally not socially liberal. I'm a right-wing liberal. I'm a economical liberal. I believe that a good economy is one of the most important foundations of a nation. Without a healthy economy, you can't have a healthy society. So that's why I focus on economy and that's why I'm an economic-liberal.

DarkDragon777 wrote...

I also think lack of discrimination makes people feel too comfortable, making competition decline.

Are you kidding me? You do know what you're saying right? You say that it's okay to take away the rights and freedom of certain individuals so other individuals can flourish. That sounds totally corrupt to me.

The thing about discrimination is that it's superficial and prejudicial. For example: "Sorry, you won't get the job, because you're homosexual." That's discrimination and it's completely prejudicial. A homosexual person isn't per definition dumber or weaker than a straight person. So it makes no sense to discriminate against homosexuals and it's completely unfair.


I believe everyone deserves an equal chance, but I also believe that everyone should try to make it on their own strength. An individual should only be limited by his/her own capabilities and not by external discrimination.

If you're weak or dumb, then that's your problem. If you're strong and smart then that's good for you, use your strength and wisdom to the fullest I'd say. But please, lets not discriminate against certain groups. That's just lame.

Oh, you didn't make me angry or anything
But now I understand that you're just economically liberal.


But sometimes you have to do what benefits the majority and leave the minority behind, as long as it benefits said majority. You cannot prosper without sacrifice.


Also, don't expect me to be too open minded in the future because I'm very stubborn.

[DarkDragon777]

Luc0s wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

But sometimes you have to do what benefits the majority and leave the minority behind, as long as it benefits said majority. You cannot prosper without sacrifice.

I agree. But that does not mean it's okay to exploit weaker people or groups. Exploitation is corrupt and it only creates anger and hatred.

Sacrificed have to be made sometimes, but I rather keep the sacrifices to a minimum.

But sacrifice is always necessary.  Think of me as the Renegade from Mass Effect.




I agree with you about kicking Greece out of the European Union. There's no need to tank your economy just for them.

Modifié par DarkDragon777, 10 septembre 2011 - 09:08 .

[Wereparrot]

Luc0s wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Yeah, you've conveniently forgotten 1500 years of Christian influence. This is the wont of the liberals.

The Christians only really influenced Europe during the early middle-ages, which are also known as the Dark Ages. And what kind of good did that bring? Not much. Until the Renaissance, which was a Humanist movement, Europe was a complete sh*thole. 

Wereparrot wrote...

The moral law was written before that. All others laws stem from that; consider it the law of God or natural order-it was still written before the Romans and Greeks came up with something based on this. To deny it just because it's found in the Bible is ridiculous. And the whole point about the culture is that is Christian culture. You won't find it in, say, Islamic countries.

There is no objective moral law. Morality is subjecitve. But our western moral values are based on Humanism. Humanism stems from Ancient Greece and Ancient Roman. That was before monotheism and before Christianity. Your God didn't even exist back then.

Again, our culture is not a Christian culture, but a Humanist culture.

And Islam has exactly the same moral values as Christianity. All the monotheistic religions are roughly the same. Your Christianity isn't special and it certainly isn't unique. Christianity stole each and every single concept it has from other (older) religions.

Wereparrot wrote...

So it's ok to be gay, but it's not ok to dissaprove? And you believe in freedom? Seriously...

You have the right to dissaprove of homosexuality, but you have not the right to take away the freedom and dignity of the homosexuals.

You're free to have your opinion and the homosexuals are free to be homosexual (which is kinda obvious because it's not like the chose to be homosexual).

Wereparrot wrote...

Don't be ridiculous. If you think all forms of discrimination should stop, then why critisize the right of religious people to believe what they will? It's called discrimination. Freedom? Suppresion. 'You may follow a religion, but only if it's state-approved'. My religion? I have not claimed to be religious. I may be so, but I'm speaking as a traditional conservative.

Again, you misrepresent my case. Stop with the strawmen please.

You have the right to believe what you will, I won't stop you. But as soon as your belief is going to oppress other people I will have to stop you.

I don't follow a religion. I'm irreligious.

Ow come on, you're obviously a Christian and a quite conservative Christian too. You say it's okay to discriminate homosexuals and you even say that people should have the right to discriminate homosexuals. You claim that morality is objective and you defend the Bible. Sorry pall, but you have C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N  F-U-N-D-I-E written all over you.

I can't be bothered to do a wall of text again...

The Dark Ages are called such because there is little evidence about the period, so how can you claim to know what the period was like culturally with any degree of finality? Nevertheless, our culture has been significantly influenced by Christianity. Forget the 'humanist' aspect, our culture would be a lot different if we'd had 1500 years of Muslim influence instead. 

Of course Islam and Judaism have many of the same values. All three are Abrahamic religions, so they all derive their law from the Mosaic Law. It is inconceivable, therefore, that the Greeks, Romans and Renaissance thinkers weren't influenced by the Mosaic Law, to whatever degree.

Yeah, I'm a Christian. I don't make a big thing about shouting it to the world, but I suppose it's obvious through my conservatism. And if you were to try and stop me adhering to my beliefs in a practical scenario, like the B&B case I mentioned, I would not be afraid to use your own laws of discrimination against you, and to take the case to the highest court. 

[Wereparrot]

Luc0s wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

The Dark Ages are called such because there is little evidence about the period, so how can you claim to know what the period was like culturally with any degree of finality? Nevertheless, our culture has been significantly influenced by Christianity. Forget the 'humanist' aspect, our culture would be a lot different if we'd had 1500 years of Muslim influence instead. 

Of course Islam and Judaism have many of the same values. All three are Abrahamic religions, so they all derive their law from the Mosaic Law. It is inconceivable, therefore, that the Greeks, Romans and Renaissance thinkers weren't influenced by the Mosaic Law, to whatever degree.

Yeah, I'm a Christian. I don't make a big thing about shouting it to the world, but I suppose it's obvious through my conservatism. And if you were to try and stop me adhering to my beliefs in a practical scenario, like the B&B case I mentioned, I would not be afraid to use your own laws of discrimination against you, and to take the case to the highest court. 

My laws of discrimination? What the heck you're talking about pall. Are you talking about the fact that we liberals dissaprove of your anti-homosexual oppression? Ow please, don't act so butt-hurt. Don't you realize it's you who's supporting discrimination (against homosexuals)? I'm totally against discrimination, which means I'm also against people like you who discriminate against homosexuals.

And you support suppressing the practical application of religios belief. Sorry that IS discrimination.

[DarkDragon777]

Come on, I'm a christian and I know the Bible doesn't say you can kill people who aren't christian.

[DarkDragon777]

Luc0s wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Come on, I'm a christian and I know the Bible doesn't say you can kill people who aren't christian.

It does:

Deuteronomy 17
If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant;
17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel;
17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

Doesn't that only matter for someone who lives in Israel?

[legion999]

Luc0s wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Doesn't that only matter for someone who lives in Israel?

Sure, you can bend the words written in the bible so it fits your own preferences (which many Christians do), but fact is, that the bible still says Christians should kill non-believers.

And it's a good thing we do bend it otherwise there would a billion lunatics killing homosexuals, pagans and other Jews.

[UpiH]

Luc0s wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

But sacrifice is always necessary..... Think of me as the Renegade from Mass Effect.

To give you an idea on how I reason:

Right now, we have this problem with Greece being bankrupt. Greece is part of the European Union. The union says we should support Greece and try to uplift their economy again. However, it would drastically weaken the economy of Europe as a whole.
Now, some people suggest we should kick Greece out of the Union so we won't endanger the economy of Europe. However, that means Greece is almost completely screwed.
Some say we should help Greece because it's the morally right thing to do and we can't backstab them now.

I personally think that the fact that Greece is bankrupt is completely their own fault. They totally did this to themselves. I don't think we should risk the economy of Europe. Therefor I agree with the people who voted to kick Greece out of the European Union.

Heh, everyone's prepared to sacrifice - others.

Ok, I know, I may be on a slippery slope here but...

Weren't we just praising the Greek contribution to our practices and laws and livelihood in general just a few seconds ago? Grecians outta EU... who's next? Ireland? Italy? Portugal?

Now, while we are at it, why don't we kick the Brits out, too? Afterall they're just free riders, if not outright stowaways. And what's more appalling, they have them pesky Moozlums there, not our problem, the consequences of their blatant imperialism. The French could go as well, by the same token...

[Sigma Tauri]

DarkDragon777 wrote...
Doesn't that only matter for someone who lives in Israel?

Context of it is more like the nation of Israel [meaning all Jews] should not transgress against the covenant between Israel and the god of Abraham. From the sound of it, it's preventing the tribes of Israel from tolerating the worship of Yahweh's contemporaries in the Levant.

But, Christians have always used the Old Testament to command their influence over others. The Christian evangelical mission is one built on the book and the sword, and the New Testament's insistence on it makes them more dangerous.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 10 septembre 2011 - 09:51 .

[Wereparrot]

Luc0s wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

And you support suppressing the practical application of religios belief. Sorry that IS discrimination.

It's less dicriminating than the practical application of religious belief in quetion.

Those people from the Christian B&B can make a choice. Homosexuals can't make a choice. One can't choose their sexual orientation, but you can choose your proffesion and you can choose whether you refuse a gay couple or not.

If your pratical application of your beliefs are in conflict with the law, then too bad, you'll just have to find a different job that doesn't force you to act against the law.


Again, this is not discrimination against Christianity, this is simply keeping our society from completely derailing.

If we would allow your discrimination against homosexuality, then what's next?

The Bible says it's okay to murder people who are against God.


"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman."  (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)


So are you now also implying that we can't puth a Christian murder in jail for murdering an atheist because that would suppress the practical application of his religious belief? Please, get over yourself and wake up.

And you're saying that Christians should make the choice not to follow the requirements of their faith? You are totalitarian then. 

It's futile to argue about the Bible; suffice it to say that not everything is permanent and should always be followed. Please, don't talk about things you clearly don't understand.

[billy the squid]

Luc0s wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

But sacrifice is always necessary..... Think of me as the Renegade from Mass Effect.

To give you an idea on how I reason:

Right now, we have this problem with Greece being bankrupt. Greece is part of the European Union. The union says we should support Greece and try to uplift their economy again. However, it would drastically weaken the economy of Europe as a whole.
Now, some people suggest we should kick Greece out of the Union so we won't endanger the economy of Europe. However, that means Greece is almost completely screwed.
Some say we should help Greece because it's the morally right thing to do and we can't backstab them now.

I personally think that the fact that Greece is bankrupt is completely their own fault. They totally did this to themselves. I don't think we should risk the economy of Europe. Therefor I agree with the people who voted to kick Greece out of the European Union.

Unlikely, the Greek debt is backed by other EU members via the European lifeboat to kick Greece out at this point would cause immediate default on this and have huge repercussions on the EU as a whole and the stability of its currency as well as make investors question the validity of the the Euro zone.

Default would also have a ripple effect upon export and import markets even those outside the Euro which trade with Greece and the Euro zone, whilst many banks have taken on soveriegn debt from Greece as well as the Euro bond, default would cause staggering losses within the sector and have negative feedback loop development within the real economy.

For the sake of pragmatism the Greeks are to stay in the Euro, at least for the foreseeable future. What should be done is take control over Greece's fiscal system and economy as they obviously have been incapable of governing themselves effectively without the use of EU subsidisation.

Modifié par billy the squid, 10 septembre 2011 - 10:04 .

[Wereparrot]

Luc0s wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Doesn't that only matter for someone who lives in Israel?

Sure, you can bend the words written in the bible so it fits your own preferences (which many Christians do), but fact is, that the bible still says Christians should kill non-believers.

People (you) are so ignorant. Leave it.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 10 septembre 2011 - 09:58 .

[billy the squid]

UpiH wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

But sacrifice is always necessary..... Think of me as the Renegade from Mass Effect.

To give you an idea on how I reason:

Right now, we have this problem with Greece being bankrupt. Greece is part of the European Union. The union says we should support Greece and try to uplift their economy again. However, it would drastically weaken the economy of Europe as a whole.
Now, some people suggest we should kick Greece out of the Union so we won't endanger the economy of Europe. However, that means Greece is almost completely screwed.
Some say we should help Greece because it's the morally right thing to do and we can't backstab them now.

I personally think that the fact that Greece is bankrupt is completely their own fault. They totally did this to themselves. I don't think we should risk the economy of Europe. Therefor I agree with the people who voted to kick Greece out of the European Union.

Heh, everyone's prepared to sacrifice - others.

Ok, I know, I may be on a slippery slope here but...

Weren't we just praising the Greek contribution to our practices and laws and livelihood in general just a few seconds ago? Grecians outta EU... who's next? Ireland? Italy? Portugal?

Now, while we are at it, why don't we kick the Brits out, too? Afterall they're just free riders, if not outright stowaways. And what's more appalling, they have them pesky Moozlums there, not our problem, the consequences of their blatant imperialism. The French could go as well, by the same token...

Britain is not in the Euro zone

[Wereparrot]

Luc0s wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

And you're saying that Christians should make the choice not to follow the requirements of their faith? You are totalitarian then. 

It's futile to argue about the Bible; suffice it to say that not everything is permanent and should always be followed. Please, don't talk about things you clearly don't understand.

Oh I understand... I understand. But do you?

You clearly don't understand if you are quoting Chronicles instead of Matthew or Paul.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 10 septembre 2011 - 10:00 .

[UpiH]

Luc0s wrote...

I don't want to kick anyone out of the European Union. Don't get me wrong, I don't enjoy the idea of Greece getting kicked out, but I think it's necessary. If we don't kick Greece out, the entire European Union will suffer for it.

Tbh, I don't know what to think. Our economies, banks and firms are so much intertwined these days. At least the Grecian grapes I just ate were excellent, not even seeds in them. Unfortunately they'd been sold out from my local grocery for the time being.

I know the some of the probs - or the rumours of non-existent tobacco fields spanning twice their area because they got agricultural subsidies for them and so forth. Also evading taxes i.e. grey market, corruption etc seem to be their favourite pastimes as well. However, we can't just abandon the ordinary people because of their bad adminstration but try and find solutions - or just give them ample time to solve their own problems by themselves with the help of the other EU countries.