Wereparrot wrote...
Luc0s wrote...
Wereparrot wrote...
Yeah, you've conveniently forgotten 1500 years of Christian influence. This is the wont of the liberals.
The Christians only really influenced Europe during the early middle-ages, which are also known as the Dark Ages. And what kind of good did that bring? Not much. Until the Renaissance, which was a Humanist movement, Europe was a complete sh*thole.
Wereparrot wrote...
The moral law was written before that. All others laws stem from that; consider it the law of God or natural order-it was still written before the Romans and Greeks came up with something based on this. To deny it just because it's found in the Bible is ridiculous. And the whole point about the culture is that is Christian culture. You won't find it in, say, Islamic countries.
There is no objective moral law. Morality is subjecitve. But our western moral values are based on Humanism. Humanism stems from Ancient Greece and Ancient Roman. That was before monotheism and before Christianity. Your God didn't even exist back then.
Again, our culture is not a Christian culture, but a Humanist culture.
And Islam has exactly the same moral values as Christianity. All the monotheistic religions are roughly the same. Your Christianity isn't special and it certainly isn't unique. Christianity stole each and every single concept it has from other (older) religions.
Wereparrot wrote...
So it's ok to be gay, but it's not ok to dissaprove? And you believe in freedom? Seriously...
You have the right to dissaprove of homosexuality, but you have not the right to take away the freedom and dignity of the homosexuals.
You're free to have your opinion and the homosexuals are free to be homosexual (which is kinda obvious because it's not like the chose to be homosexual).
Wereparrot wrote...
Don't be ridiculous. If you think all forms of discrimination should stop, then why critisize the right of religious people to believe what they will? It's called discrimination. Freedom? Suppresion. 'You may follow a religion, but only if it's state-approved'. My religion? I have not claimed to be religious. I may be so, but I'm speaking as a traditional conservative.
Again, you misrepresent my case. Stop with the strawmen please.
You have the right to believe what you will, I won't stop you. But as soon as your belief is going to oppress other people I will have to stop you.
I don't follow a religion. I'm irreligious.
Ow come on, you're obviously a Christian and a quite conservative Christian too. You say it's okay to discriminate homosexuals and you even say that people should have the right to discriminate homosexuals. You claim that morality is objective and you defend the Bible. Sorry pall, but you have C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N F-U-N-D-I-E written all over you.
I can't be bothered to do a wall of text again...
The Dark Ages are called such because there is little evidence about the period, so how can you claim to know what the period was like culturally with any degree of finality? Nevertheless, our culture has been significantly influenced by Christianity. Forget the 'humanist' aspect, our culture would be a lot different if we'd had 1500 years of Muslim influence instead.
Of course Islam and Judaism have many of the same values. All three are Abrahamic religions, so they all derive their law from the Mosaic Law. It is inconceivable, therefore, that the Greeks, Romans and Renaissance thinkers weren't influenced by the Mosaic Law, to whatever degree.
Yeah, I'm a Christian. I don't make a big thing about shouting it to the world, but I suppose it's obvious through my conservatism. And if you were to try and stop me adhering to my beliefs in a practical scenario, like the B&B case I mentioned, I would not be afraid to use your own laws of discrimination against you, and to take the case to the highest court.
LOL, The Dark Ages are what "humanists" bring up often in their discussions about "why religion is bad" and they keep saying that "religion led to The Dark Ages" when they obviously know nothing about them. Like you said, The Dark Ages was when there were little records of events in that peroid. If my memory serves correct, then The Dark Ages came about when Rome fell and at that time, they were one of the only people who recorded events in Europe. The only records we have from The Dark Ages were from religious Christian monks who were peaceful and most of them were MURDERED by vikings. The monks were the only people recording history back then.
To stay on topic, I think religion unites people but at the same time, can be used for wrong purposes. Ever since The Nicene Council, Churches have been trying to get people to believe their opinion and translation of Christianity. I think if we all were to truly follow the teachings of Christ (who - if I recall - attacked religious officials and priests and called them hypocrites) and not of The Church or some religious official, we'd be better off as a race.
Of course, in this dark time (which Luc0s calls a humanist culture) humans kindly leave wounded people to die on the streets. There are few Samaritans in this time. Seems like children need to be teached about Jesus and his parable about The Good Samaritan. This culture sucks because children aren't teached about loving your fellow human or helping them. I believe people should have the right to choose what religion they want but could it harm, teaching children the teachings of Christ? They could even teach about the teachings of Buddha and Gandhi and trust me, the next generation would be better if children were teached about these three people and the parables they told. Parents these days just don't seem to care which is why we can find seven year old children running about with knifes and guns in this Western society too.
I know humanity isn't going to change. We're doomed. End of story but I can hope.
Luc0s wrote...
Wereparrot wrote...
Luc0s wrote...
Wereparrot wrote...
And you're saying that Christians should make the choice not to follow the requirements of their faith? You are totalitarian then.
It's futile to argue about the Bible; suffice it to say that not everything is permanent and should always be followed. Please, don't talk about things you clearly don't understand.
Oh I understand... I understand. But do you?
You clearly don't understand if you are quoting Chronicles instead of Matthew or Paul.
Oh, you're saying you don't follow the Old Testament? If you don't care for the OT, then why is it in your bible? Clearly the OT still has value to most Christians. In fact, I'm quite sure that the NT states that Jesus himself said that "The Old Laws" are still uphold.
As I said: I understand, but do you?
Jesus did away with the OT laws for Jews. Didn't you know that Moses made most of them? lol
Jesus was speaking about the 10 commandments (which IMO are a good set of rules to follow). He then summed up the 10 commands:
"
Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:36-40).
Now if everyone obeyed the "Love your neighbor as yourself" command, there would be no murder, no crime and we would live in peace. The fact is - religious or non religious - not many want to obey this command because they can't humble themselves.
Modifié par Elton John is dead, 10 septembre 2011 - 10:19 .
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