489 réponses à ce sujet

[Creature 1]

Elton John is dead wrote...
Some of these relics even prove that certain people in The Bible existed. Obviously, this doesn't prove the existance of God but it proves there are supported facts behind The Bible.

Troy existed, therefore there are supported facts behind The Iliad.  This is why I worship Athena. 

Also read your OT.  There is no natural phenomenon that could cause the waters of the Red Sea to part and stand as "a wall to them on their right hand and on their left".  

[nijnij]

I think a lot of us are doing good, in fact I believe most humans are peaceful, loving, open-minded creatures. The problem is that the people who screw things up generally leave a bigger print than the people who do good things, because unlike thoughtful people, they don't really care about the consequences of their actions. It's amazing the amount of energy you can suddenly dedicate to something when you don't "waste" that amount thinking or empathizing.

[UpiH]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Your proof that Moses didn't exist?

Please, we don't want to get there, the rudiments seen on a gazillion atheist - religious debates. The burden of proof lies solely on you. Otherwise we could claim whatever occurs to our minds and just say: prove it not to be true.

Modifié par UpiH, 10 septembre 2011 - 11:09 .

[Wereparrot]

@ nameless one7: the animal sacrifices were part of the ceremonial law. Christianity teaches that the ceremonial law was fulfilled on the cross, which is why it is no longer followed. The moral law is the one that is still in force.

[Eternal Phoenix]

UpiH wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

Your proof that Moses didn't exist?

Please, we don't want to get there, the rudiments seen on a gazillion atheist - religious debates. The burden of proof lies solely on you. Otherwise we could claim whatever occurs to our minds and just say: prove it not to be true.

Way to quote out of context. Didn't I link you to my proof? Now you must disprove them. So the burden for proof (for your theory) is on you.

Creature 1 wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...
Some of these relics even prove that certain people in The Bible existed. Obviously, this doesn't prove the existance of God but it proves there are supported facts behind The Bible.

Troy existed, therefore there are supported facts behind The Iliad.  This is why I worship Athena.  

Also read your OT.  There is no natural phenomenon that could cause the waters of the Red Sea to part and stand as "a wall to them on their right hand and on their left".  

Way to go at ignoring the bold text. And no, the sea of reeds couldn't stand as walls through natural phenomenon but that doesn't stop some scientists from believing the parting of the sea (and the plagues of Eygpt) happened due to Volcanic activity. In any case, the archealogical evidence (that I linked on the previous page) is huge. It's time you atheists stop calling The Bible fiction when a lot of the events have been proven.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 10 septembre 2011 - 11:40 .

[Wereparrot]

UpiH wrote...

No point in arguing theology with the fundies. However, there are several schools on that issue. To be brief: some say Jesus superceded the OT, some not that much.

Matthew:

"17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them , the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Actually I was looking for Romans 12:18

If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

[Creature 1]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...
Some of these relics even prove that certain people in The Bible existed. Obviously, this doesn't prove the existance of God but it proves there are supported facts behind The Bible.

Troy existed, therefore there are supported facts behind The Iliad.  This is why I worship Athena.  

Also read your OT.  There is no natural phenomenon that could cause the waters of the Red Sea to part and stand as "a wall to them on their right hand and on their left".  

Way to go at ignoring the bold text. And no, the sea of reeds couldn't stand as walls through natural phenomenon but that doesn't stop some scientists from believing the parting of the sea (and the plagues of Eygpt) happened due to Volcanic activity.

You kinda missed the points. 

If you realize that some things being factual in Greek and Judeo-Christian mythology does not mean that the supernatural claims in those stories are real, then there's no point in even bringing up historical accuracies as a supporting factor for the supernatural claims. 

Scientists explaining biblical phenomena also provides no support for the Bible's supernatural claims.  Scientists are looking at the Bible from the point of view of historians, who think certain mythological items are totally made up, while other have some basis in a historical event and are embellished.  Perhaps some natural phenomenon could have occurred that allowed the Red Sea to be temporarily bridged by a sand bar.  So what?  Such a phenomenon would be natural, and not require the action of a deity.  The event depicted in the Bible is clearly *supernatural*, though the scientists coming up with potential explanations think this is just artistic license.  If it actually was a miracle, you're not going to be able to prove that millennia later (since if supernatural phenomena exist they cannot be scientifically investigated), so again it provides no support for the Bible's supernatural claims. 

Belief seems to me to be something that people cannot be argued into or out of.  Most of the time it appears to be inherited through upbringing with people who share similar beliefs.  People are very unlikely to adopt a religion brought in from outside their community. 

[UpiH]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Way to quote out of context. Didn't I link you to my proof? Now you must disprove them. So the burden for proof (for your theory) is on you.

Just a way to prevent from walls of texts.

I didn't deny Moses's existence as a historical/mythical figure. He may have been a person or a combination of many, who knows. I gladly leave those burning bushes, flames of fire out of the midst of a bush and  pillars of the cloud to the believers. They may believe whatever they wish.

Modifié par UpiH, 11 septembre 2011 - 12:01 .

[slimgrin]

The bible is riddled with inconsistencies, It's clear there were many authors over a lengthy period of time.

Saying its the word of an infallible creator is a joke.

[C9316]

Damn, no "Which killed more people; Religion or Atheism?" discussion yet? Oh right this is the bible thumping phase, carry own...

[saMoorai]

We've made this:



And this:



And who could forget this?



I'd say we're doing Pretty good.

[C9316]

I'm gonna actually answer the OP's question.



I think it's all good

[UpiH]

C9316 wrote...

Damn, no "Which killed more people; Religion or Atheism?" discussion yet? Oh right this is the bible thumping phase, carry own...

Wouldn't it be refreshing to discuss, for a change, on who killed more in spite of religion or in spite of atheism or lack thereof?

[slimgrin]

UpiH wrote...

C9316 wrote...

Damn, no "Which killed more people; Religion or Atheism?" discussion yet? Oh right this is the bible thumping phase, carry own...

Wouldn't it be refreshing to discuss, for a change, on who killed more in spite of religion or in spite of atheism or lack thereof?

I think what would be refreshing is to ask which one makes more sense.

[UpiH]

slimgrin wrote...

I think what would be refreshing is to ask which one makes more sense.

Well, religion is extrasensory by definition, so there's no point in arguing about that.

[Russalka]

Some of the religious and sociopolitical debate makes me ask, isn't it a bit of a fallacy to ask others not to discriminate against discrimination?

This seems rather off-topic though.

Modifié par Russalka, 11 septembre 2011 - 01:08 .

[UpiH]

Russalka wrote...

Some of the religious and sociopolitical debate makes me ask, isn't it a bit of a fallacy to ask others not to discriminate against discrimination?

This seems rather off-topic though.

Kinda begs the question, methinks. You see that a lot these days. Victimization has great appeal to many, even to the oppressors whining about being deprived of their rights to discriminate.

Modifié par UpiH, 11 septembre 2011 - 01:26 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

OT is not wholly the words of Moses, and It is written through generations in Israel. It has some extreme parts that are added later, We don't know which part is correct or false. And for a reason Christians are called christian and it is the Focus on NT.
And I hate When I see some freak Atheists start their crusade against every religion and want to kill the god. Many religions have flexibility and every religion is reformable (maybe not the Alqaeda's Islam).
Morality is based on Objectivism and Religion is necessary for the good of every big society, without it the society is off-balanced and many harms and awful things happens daily because of lack of certain morality. Not everyone can become a philosopher; The sad part is you jackass began to despise philosophy for decades with your so called omniscience psychology.
Most of the people will keep their faiths. If Atheists don't like it, gather somewhere and create their own country.
- Arian the Philosopher, supporter of Religion

[UpiH]

Ahem, atheists do not commit crusades at all, that's a task for the Christians. In order to be a philosopher one would do well if one's at least consistent at a basic level.

Secondly, why would atheists want to kill some non-existent thing? They don't go killing tooth fairies or dragons or any other imaginable apparition either unless they are delusional.

Humankind has had ethics and morals far before any organized religion entered the stage and will have far after the illusions have vanished. Otherwise there would not be humankind at all since human beings would have murdered each other long time ago. Of course there will always be people who think the world is some 6 000 years old and counting, that the dinosaur lived with Fred Flintstone and whatever fairy tale happens to delight and entertain them. So what, let them bask in their crackpot phantasms as long as they do not do harm to themselves or other people.

From what I've seen, the atheists oftentimes know the Bible far better than the religious folks, especially fundies, and have much more profound understanding on the writings and history behind the Biblical canon and surroundings, beyond mere googling or memorizing favourite passages and then mechanically spouting and parroting those all around.

Modifié par UpiH, 11 septembre 2011 - 05:25 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Luc0s wrote...
You would be shocked and amazed if you knew how many Christians never have read the Bible themselves.

From what I've heard last, I believe only 40% of all Christians have ever read the entire Bible from cover to cover. 60% of all Christians have neve read the entire Bible and half of that 60% have never even opened a Bible at all.

The Bible, as a whole, is pretty long-winded, and at times, insulting to the reader's intelligence. So I can see why some would skip to the "good parts". There's just too much stale filler. 

[Volus Warlord]

Capt. Obvious wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Capt. Obvious wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

At best you'll get disappointment, at worst you'll get a knife in the back.

Christ, you sound like everyone's out to get everyone.

To a lesser or greater extent, they are...

During the 60s, people who had an African background believed that they would achieve civil rights if they fought for it and didn't succumb to the racism that was in the United States at the time. They put their trust in someone to speak for them and help guide them there. That guy gave one of the best speeches in history. That's an example of faith that didn't end in failure. Hell, I put faith in the kid next door to mole my lawn and I've never gotten disappointment in return. There's nothing wrong with putting faith in someone or something. Not everyone's a betrayer.

Oh boy. The non-betrayers are a few specks of gold in a pile of sewage.

[Volus Warlord]

Luc0s wrote...

You would be shocked and amazed if you knew how many Christians never have read the Bible themselves.

From what I've heard last, I believe only 40% of all Christians have ever read the entire Bible from cover to cover. 60% of all Christians have neve read the entire Bible and half of that 60% have never even opened a Bible at all.


I'll post a link to the statistics when I find it, right now I can't find the link I was looking for.

When people think the Bible says "he helps those who help themselves" I want to throw a kitten off a cliff. Drives me nuts.

I've also never read the Bible from cover to cover (It is a lot to read). But I do know what's going on.