26 réponses à ce sujet

[Melra]

 So, I was trying to make a new dwarf noble just to see how it would work out, if I supported Bhelen for throne, but during my playthrough I realized that it would seem really weird. I mean seriously he betrays PC and your character would still support him for the throne? I haven't done it yet, but I am interested if there is any factor that would make supporting the person, who caused you to become casteless, over the one who tried to help you out and ease your punishment.

What does Bhelen say/do to his exiled sister/brother after he/she helps him to become king? Same things as Harrow or is there some special sibling twist to it? I've done so many characters in so little time recently, that I really don't have the willpower to go through the whole process to get an answer, so if someone could enlighten me a bit I would be thankful. 

Ps. Sorry if my text is hard to read.

[Poubo]

you get taken back in to House Aeducan straight after the crowning, but i felt like i was part of my character and couldn't choose Bhelen, i only did this to see what it would be like...



i was a little disheartened that i couldnt search for the 3rd heir to throne as another origin... wouldve been interesting for sure! Plus i hate seeing Gorim in Denerim knowing that he's such an honourable person

[Haasth]

Seems an odd choice. I would pick Harrowmont if I were a Dwarf Noble, you still become a Paragon and get taken back into House Aeducan if yo do.

[ReubenLiew]

I was planning to play a Dwarf Noble to do exactly this. The house of Aeducan must be preserved!

Plus he plays a good game, can't fault him that As a dwarf you should understand that completely! It wasn't personal, just business.

[Poubo]

Haasth wrote...

Seems an odd choice. I would pick Harrowmont if I were a Dwarf Noble, you still become a Paragon and get taken back into House Aeducan if yo do.

but orzammar improves under bhelen strangely enough...

on my dwarf i was hoping that i could stay in orzammar and help harrowmount rule as an advisor (being a living paragon and all). but alas even when i said i would return it didnt change my orzammar ending

[Poubo]

ReubenLiew wrote...

I was planning to play a Dwarf Noble to do exactly this. The house of Aeducan must be preserved!
Plus he plays a good game, can't fault him that As a dwarf you should understand that completely! It wasn't personal, just business.

that depends on your perception of the politcs, any good dwarf could see with that mindset that the future would be in jeopardy.

he kills your father and your brother and Lord Harrowmount, your fathers closest friend...

...frames you for murder...

...after he killed Trian, all i could think of was going back to settle the score in a proving.

[Haasth]

Poubo wrote...

Haasth wrote...

Seems an odd choice. I would pick Harrowmont if I were a Dwarf Noble, you still become a Paragon and get taken back into House Aeducan if yo do.

but orzammar improves under bhelen strangely enough...

on my dwarf i was hoping that i could stay in orzammar and help harrowmount rule as an advisor (being a living paragon and all). but alas even when i said i would return it didnt change my orzammar ending

True. An odd choice for Noble, regardless. But Bhelen is what I am going for (I was disappointed with Harrowmont) with all my other characters at least. Though I haven't tried Harrowmont with the Anvil either. But the whole progression and change thing Bhelen stands for is more appealing and effective.

[ReubenLiew]

Well, I highly doubt that's all that highly unusual in Dwarf Noblity circles.

Yes, personally, you'd be pretty pissed at him. But he turns out to be a better king than his father, his brother, you, and his father's best friend.

He may be a complete monster, but maybe that's what it takes to bring the dwarfs out of their decline.

[Melra]

Thank you for the answers!



Well Endrin seemed like my character and he didn't seem to think of it all as business, so perhaps they both are unique. On my first playthrough I rushed to Orzammar as soon as I got out of Lothering. I was so ready to kill Bhelen and become a king, but I had to do with the next best thing and give reins over to Harrowmont.

[Poubo]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Well, I highly doubt that's all that highly unusual in Dwarf Noblity circles.
Yes, personally, you'd be pretty pissed at him. But he turns out to be a better king than his father, his brother, you, and his father's best friend.
He may be a complete monster, but maybe that's what it takes to bring the dwarfs out of their decline.

you do realise that Endrin re-initated talking to the other dwarven city right and that he was revered by the people for being the best king they'd had in centuries?

Bhelen had a lot of support only because he was an Aeducan, I am too, but i'm still exiled until the end where it doesnt matter, even when you have proof that you were framed.

Bhelen is a tyrant, sometimes a nation prospers under such, but eventually it will bring you down.

[Gilead26]

Haasth wrote...

Poubo wrote...

Haasth wrote...

Seems an odd choice. I would pick Harrowmont if I were a Dwarf Noble, you still become a Paragon and get taken back into House Aeducan if yo do.

but orzammar improves under bhelen strangely enough...




on my dwarf i was hoping that i could stay in orzammar and help harrowmount rule as an advisor (being a living paragon and all). but alas even when i said i would return it didnt change my orzammar ending

True. An odd choice for Noble, regardless. But Bhelen is what I am going for (I was disappointed with Harrowmont) with all my other characters at least. Though I haven't tried Harrowmont with the Anvil either. But the whole progression and change thing Bhelen stands for is more appealing and effective.

If you give Harrowmont the Anvil it makes things even worse, to appease Branka he starts launching raids on the surface to capture humans and elves to be turned into golems further isolating the dwarves from the surface.  He also uses the golems as enforcers to make the caste system even more rigid.

[ReubenLiew]

Poubo wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

Well, I highly doubt that's all that highly unusual in Dwarf Noblity circles.
Yes, personally, you'd be pretty pissed at him. But he turns out to be a better king than his father, his brother, you, and his father's best friend.
He may be a complete monster, but maybe that's what it takes to bring the dwarfs out of their decline.

you do realise that Endrin re-initated talking to the other dwarven city right and that he was revered by the people for being the best king they'd had in centuries?

Bhelen had a lot of support only because he was an Aeducan, I am too, but i'm still exiled until the end where it doesnt matter, even when you have proof that you were framed.

Bhelen is a tyrant, sometimes a nation prospers under such, but eventually it will bring you down.

Endrin was revered, thats why. He was however also a traditionalist, and his 'talking' with the other dwarf city involved bullying them to relent to the power of Orzammar or get lost, if you recall the chat he had with his advisors on the throne. He would've kept status quo, you being the good child you were, would've kept status quo, and as the line progressed on and on they would've tried to keep to their ancestors and tried to keep status quo, and slowly be consumed by the Darkspawn invasions bit by bit.

Bhelen is a revolutionary. He has an insane support base, if you chose Harrowmont, Unlike other kings, Bhelen's powerbase didn't evaporate as soon as he died. Whole mobs of his supporters came out of the woodwork to undermine Harrowmont, because they supported Bhelen's idea. His death was a martyr's death, which resulted in chaos and revolution in the Dwarf city.

His tyranny only works as long as he doesn't have too much power. Destroy the anvil and he'll have to rely on good relations with the outside world to make his people strong again. He abolishes the caste (or eases it) to allow the commoners a better life.

I heard playing the Dwarf Commoner origin has very deep insights to Bhelen's character. Should try that out sometime. I may not like him personally, but sometimes a ruthless leader is required for change.

[Mikka-chan]

I don't know, I could see a clever noble supporting Bhelen. He's your dear brother, after all, and you know what his game is now. Keep things in the family, as it is- Harrowmont may be a dear man, but he won't make for a dear king, and your father's will might not mean as much when you learn he sent you away despite believing in your innocence simply to avoid any others looking too deeply at your family (and because the PC needs to become a Gray Warden, but I assume he wasn't made aware of that metagamewise). While helping Bhelen get the throne, you'll see him play even more cards, including some you might have not been aware of, and you'll know even better then it works.



Then you pinch his cheeks, say he's just an adorable little brother-king, take up your title as Lord or Lady Aeducun again, and go save the world (have Ali or Log go die, or take up Morrigan's offer). Come back, and live quietly in your estates for another year or so writing, I don't know, philosophy books about the surface races and how to conquer them all, but make appearances when necessary. Get yourself married so it's obvious that you'll have heir (eventually).



Then, after that year or two, gasp in surprise when Bhelen chokes on a fish-bone that your Master Poisoner self has gotten, make sure Rica and all related to her disappear, and then watch as you get proclaimed King or Queen, oh living Paragon. (If the nobles start dithering about that, I advise my earlier tactic: picking up the Anvil, and hitting it on Assembly's head repeatedly until they name you successor.)



Okay, sure, you can't do it in game and it might not be possible, period... but it would be fun, right?

[Poubo]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Poubo wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

Well, I highly doubt that's all that highly unusual in Dwarf Noblity circles.
Yes, personally, you'd be pretty pissed at him. But he turns out to be a better king than his father, his brother, you, and his father's best friend.
He may be a complete monster, but maybe that's what it takes to bring the dwarfs out of their decline.

you do realise that Endrin re-initated talking to the other dwarven city right and that he was revered by the people for being the best king they'd had in centuries?

Bhelen had a lot of support only because he was an Aeducan, I am too, but i'm still exiled until the end where it doesnt matter, even when you have proof that you were framed.

Bhelen is a tyrant, sometimes a nation prospers under such, but eventually it will bring you down.

Endrin was revered, thats why. He was however also a traditionalist, and his 'talking' with the other dwarf city involved bullying them to relent to the power of Orzammar or get lost, if you recall the chat he had with his advisors on the throne. He would've kept status quo, you being the good child you were, would've kept status quo, and as the line progressed on and on they would've tried to keep to their ancestors and tried to keep status quo, and slowly be consumed by the Darkspawn invasions bit by bit.

Bhelen is a revolutionary. He has an insane support base, if you chose Harrowmont, Unlike other kings, Bhelen's powerbase didn't evaporate as soon as he died. Whole mobs of his supporters came out of the woodwork to undermine Harrowmont, because they supported Bhelen's idea. His death was a martyr's death, which resulted in chaos and revolution in the Dwarf city.

His tyranny only works as long as he doesn't have too much power. Destroy the anvil and he'll have to rely on good relations with the outside world to make his people strong again. He abolishes the caste (or eases it) to allow the commoners a better life.

I heard playing the Dwarf Commoner origin has very deep insights to Bhelen's character. Should try that out sometime. I may not like him personally, but sometimes a ruthless leader is required for change.

i wouldnt say he was a revolutionist at all, everything he did he did for himself, sure it may have helped others, but that was not why he was doing it. revolutions arent always right you know. he was selfish and didn't care who died for his own power or needs.

unfortunately the story in this case was forcing 2 extremes against each other. what i personally wanted was a combination of the 2. unfortunately this game doesnt "expand" enough for the personality i chose for my dwarf noble so i was forced in to something i know i could have changed if i had been given that option.

[ReubenLiew]

How is he not a revolutionist? And the game most certain disagrees with you that he wasn't good for the people, he was most certainly best for the dwarven people. And so what if he did it for himself, I don't quite see whats wrong with that as long as his people prospered while he did, Better a king thats selfish and efficient than a nice king that's useless.

And in my PCs mind she knows he's a conniving bastard, but considering that you would've probably backstabbed how many cousins and relatives in the past, or at least it's implied so, he's just playing the game much better than you.

[Lil-Vinny29]

I tried going with Harrowmont and sticking with Branka and the ending for the dwarves really aint pretty!



Best ending would be Bhelen and Caridin although playing as his brother, its hard to reconcile with Bhelen, he did frame everybody and slit Trian's throat myself !

[ChemicalGreen]

Lil-Vinny29 wrote...

I tried going with Harrowmont and sticking with Branka and the ending for the dwarves really aint pretty!

Best ending would be Bhelen and Caridin although playing as his brother, its hard to reconcile with Bhelen, he did frame everybody and slit Trian's throat myself !

Well..... Trian was a bit of a dick, I only felt a bit disappointed I could not have killed him myself. <_<

[DPSSOC]

For me it's not that big of a stretch. You both played the game and he won, there's no shame in losing to a superior opponent. If Bhelen had somehow stumbled into leadership despite his own incompetence (like Trian) then yeah I'd have resentment and want to kill him but as it is he's a worthy foe and I respect him for it.

[EricHVela]

Think of Dwarves like Klingons. Who would be the better ruler of such an honor-facade, barbaric society?

[Fishy]

Bhelen he's simply pragmatic .. Not much of a tyrant...
He's basicly the male version of Morrigan in the game.

Modifié par Suprez30, 13 décembre 2009 - 02:57 .

[mousestalker]

After all is said and done, he is still your brother. House Aeducan > everyone else. As for the meta game, he gets to be king. Play your cards right, you get to be a Paragon. Paragons outrank kings. And the dwarves will remember Bhelen not as the reformer but as the brother of a Paragon. Best kind of revenge, surpass your rival.

[Elayne Hope]

Well, on my dwarven noble, she did kill Trian. Oh sure, he attacked her first and all, but still.

She also wanted to join the Grey Wardens, despite her fathers wishes. There is no doubt Trian would make a terrible king, and my noble didn't want the job. Bhelen both wants the job and seems quite capable. So Bhelen sets up Trian's death, my character gets to join the wardens, Bhelen gets to be king, Orzammar prospers, wins all around! or something like that....

[Taritu]

I knew Bhelen was setting me up with no meta-game knowledge, but there wasn't anything I could do about it. To be fair, I don't think even given freedom I would have been able to stop him. The only way would be to know that the two guys with you are traitors, and kill them, then frame them for killing your brother.

[Herr Uhl]

Taritu wrote...

I knew Bhelen was setting me up with no meta-game knowledge, but there wasn't anything I could do about it. To be fair, I don't think even given freedom I would have been able to stop him. The only way would be to know that the two guys with you are traitors, and kill them, then frame them for killing your brother.

You get to kill the scout, and you get no bad rep of it from ol' dad. Never liked the scout. It's Ivo's fault.

[Mnemnosyne]

Taritu wrote...

I knew Bhelen was setting me up with no meta-game knowledge, but there wasn't anything I could do about it. To be fair, I don't think even given freedom I would have been able to stop him. The only way would be to know that the two guys with you are traitors, and kill them, then frame them for killing your brother.

Well if you had complete freedom of action and suspected a trap from Bhelen, you could go with the option of telling Bhelen that you're going to kill Trian, and then surrendering to Trian to explain the situation.  When the traitorous scout attacks without your command, kill HIM and surrender still.  As long as you kept Trian alive until everyone got there, there would be nothing more than Bhelen's word that you were even planning anything.