337 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Gogeta34]

What did Hackett say had you done all-Paragon? I don't remember not getting Hackett praise for giving Paragon answers.

And I only wish that Paragon = auto-win was an exaggeration... but we both know it isn't.

[Troika0]

AlexXIV wrote...

Would you really like a new council which says the same thing to you as the old council? Because then you would actually have no difference.

I cannot deny that I would not like this...

 Having no council is at least not the same as having the old council. Bioware's problem is that people always complain.

but no, this is not better. Cut content is not better than pallet swap content, in fact it's worse since it shows even less effort. And before you say "gotcha," keep in mind I find both scenarios bad. It's the same as choosing to get hit with a bat or a hammer, both are terrible but between the two I'd prefer the bat, but they're still terrible and I'd still resent the person giving me the choice.

By the way, I can't believe you're casting me as the unreasonable party in this debate while you employ doublethink logic like "no content is new content."

Modifié par Troika0, 27 décembre 2011 - 12:17 .

[AlexXIV]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The diplomatic "assassination" quest is the Renegade's alternative to saving the scientists for Paragons.

And that's what people are asking for. no? Different content for paragons and renegades. My only problem is with people asking for replacements for NPCs they killed. That's like asking for replacement for everyone who died on the suicide mission. So what is really bad about RPGs making killing people not an easy choice? It is not a shooter or hack and slash, why do people insist on killing everyone and get a reward on top? Because that's what works so well irl as well?

[AlexXIV]

Troika0 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Would you really like a new council which says the same thing to you as the old council? Because then you would actually have no difference.

I cannot deny that I would not like this...

 Having no council is at least not the same as having the old council. Bioware's problem is that people always complain.

but no, this is not better. Cut content is not better than pallet swap content, in fact it's worse since it shows even less effort. And before you say "gotcha," keep in mind I find both scenarios bad. It's the same as choosing to get hit with a bat or a hammer, both are terrible but between the two I'd prefer the bat, but they're still terrible and I'd still resent the person giving me the choice.

By the way, I can't believe you're casting me as the unreasonable party in this debate while you employ doublethink logic like "no content is new content."

I never said no content is new content, but honestly I disagree with you. I'm saying people will complain about missing content just as much as about pallet swap. So would you spend ressources on something that will get you just as many complaints as if you just left out content?

[Troika0]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

The diplomatic "assassination" quest is the Renegade's alternative to saving the scientists for Paragons.

And that's what people are asking for. no? Different content for paragons and renegades. My only problem is with people asking for replacements for NPCs they killed. That's like asking for replacement for everyone who died on the suicide mission. So what is really bad about RPGs making killing people not an easy choice? It is not a shooter or hack and slash, why do people insist on killing everyone and get a reward on top? Because that's what works so well irl as well?

Mother of god, did you escape from a Twilight Zone episode. No one has been asking for replacement characters, exept in the instance of the new council where they're supposed to exist. People are against both pallet swap characters and no deviation in outcomes for choices. They dislike them both. But, of course, you're now going to respond that Bioware can't do diverging content. So again, what are you really arguing for? Do you just want people to stop criticizing Bioware regardless of the validity of the criticism?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

The diplomatic "assassination" quest is the Renegade's alternative to saving the scientists for Paragons.

And that's what people are asking for. no? Different content for paragons and renegades. My only problem is with people asking for replacements for NPCs they killed. That's like asking for replacement for everyone who died on the suicide mission. So what is really bad about RPGs making killing people not an easy choice? It is not a shooter or hack and slash, why do people insist on killing everyone and get a reward on top? Because that's what works so well irl as well?

Actually yes it is.. That's "Equivalent Content."


And no one's asking for replacements to NPCs that died... There is a new Council, so we should see them.  We're not asking for "a replacement" to something that's not there.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 27 décembre 2011 - 12:26 .

[Seboist]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The diplomatic "assassination" quest is the Renegade's alternative to saving the scientists for Paragons.

It's too bad the series' C&C isn't like that.

[AlexXIV]

Troika0 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

The diplomatic "assassination" quest is the Renegade's alternative to saving the scientists for Paragons.

And that's what people are asking for. no? Different content for paragons and renegades. My only problem is with people asking for replacements for NPCs they killed. That's like asking for replacement for everyone who died on the suicide mission. So what is really bad about RPGs making killing people not an easy choice? It is not a shooter or hack and slash, why do people insist on killing everyone and get a reward on top? Because that's what works so well irl as well?

Mother of god, did you escape from a Twilight Zone episode. No one has been asking for replacement characters, exept in the instance of the new council where they're supposed to exist. People are against both pallet swap characters and no deviation in outcomes for choices. They dislike them both. But, of course, you're now going to respond that Bioware can't do diverging content. So again, what are you really arguing for? Do you just want people to stop criticizing Bioware regardless of the validity of the criticism?

If you have a budget then you can't spend some of it in 'more content' without taking it from somewhere else. Easy economic issue that should be pretty much plain to see. So what are you argueing for? That Bioware should raise their budget? That would mean they have to appeal to more people. Which you probably also don't like because games who appeal to more people are usually story wise more shallow. You can criticize all you want, just saying that people here think that everything is easy and Bioware is stupid. More likely people here are stupid and Bioware have a better clue what they are doing.

Bottomline if you can't resolve the business side issues Bioware has with making games, your criticizm may not help them much because they will simply say 'we don't have ressources for that'. And you know this kind of criticizm is not just normal criticizm it is the same people who keep spamming the same topic for years. And in a more or less rude fashion on top of it. I don't think that will get anyone anywhere.

[AlexXIV]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

What did Hackett say had you done all-Paragon? I don't remember not getting Hackett praise for giving Paragon answers.

And I only wish that Paragon = auto-win was an exaggeration... but we both know it isn't.

Because the paragon choice is to talk about Saren, the neutral choice is to say you can't comment on it. The first two paragon choices are about shepard being pro-human and about the normandy being co-built by turians and humans, the third question is about Saren and thus top secret. The paragon choice is to confirm that you are looking for Saren, the neutral choice is to say you can't comment on your current assignment because it is top secret. So the neutral option is the best and paragon is only second best. If you have a save game there just try it. I don't remember it word by word.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 27 décembre 2011 - 12:49 .

[Troika0]

Alex, if Bioware can't or don't want to do "choice and consequence" for whatever reason, doesn't matter, then they need to stop selling their games as though that were a feature. It's as simple as that.

My argument is that Bioware needs to make good on their sales pitches or stop using them all together. Frankly, the sooner they just admit they don't want to make RPG's, the better--couldn't care less--I just want them to stop posturing as RPG developers.

Modifié par Troika0, 27 décembre 2011 - 12:54 .

[AlexXIV]

Troika0 wrote...

Alex, if Bioware can't or don't want to do "choice and consequence" for whatever reason, doesn't matter, then they need to stop selling their games as though that were a feature. It's as simple as that.

My argument is that Bioware needs to make good on their sales pitches or stop using them all together. Frankly, the sooner they just admit they don't want to make RPG's, the better--couldn't care less--I just want them to stop posturing as RPG developers.

I think ME is labeled action-RPG anyway. I agree on the marketing thing though. It is more a story driven action game with choices. Probably need to invent a new name for that genre. Because it is not really an action game or shooter either with all the dialogue and story interruptions.

But honestly, people could argue that Bioware never made real RPGs. Even Baldurs gate doesn't have alot of non-combat related skills or quests for example. And with their party focused gameplay there is not much use for example for stealth either. I mean how will you sneak past enemies with a heavily armored Krogan in your group?

Modifié par AlexXIV, 27 décembre 2011 - 01:01 .

[Troika0]

It's an "Action Game," Bioware doesn't deserve a genre unto themselves for simply forcing meaningless dialogue choices--that can now be circumvented--and a poor quality dating sim into the action game framework.

This is why I get such a kick out of Bioware. They see the sales numbers for other games and want to get those numbers, so they go out and try to copy or make those games. They see action games topping sales charts and thus want to make action games. No problem there. But, and here's where I laugh, they want to make action games without actually competing with action games--because honestly, the gameplay in Bioware games is pretty poor--so they continue to posture as RPG developers for the sake of differentiating themselves from their actual competition. Now, I understand the need for the deception, and a lie agreed upon is fine, but I've got nothing to gain from them continueing this little charade so why should I go along with it?

They want to make action games and thats fine, they just need to sell themselves as such. And if RPG's are as dead as the adventure game genre, then just let it's poor corpse rest and stop with this zombie puppet show.

Modifié par Troika0, 27 décembre 2011 - 01:23 .

[AlexXIV]

Well can't really against that because if that's your opinion, that's your opinion. For me personally ME2 is one of the best games I ever played. RPG or not.

[rapscallioness]

I'm a Paragon player, but I have to say that the Renegades have a fair point.

I can't remember exactly who said what, but it's true that there was no true diverging path in the game. Not that we've seen so far.

And Saphra has a fair point, too. I've never played as Renegade, but if it's the same as a non-import---that sux. It does.

If you hype a game as "choice and consequence shaping the story"--to some degree at least, then you need to follow thru. I love BW and I love ME games, but I haven't seen that. Even as a Paragon.

Yes, Paragon players did get a lil extra content. And content is content. But wow, it was some pretty lame "extra content". I was expecting something more along the lines of a brief side mission, or two that reflected whatever choices the player made.

Even some continuing theme thru the game where somebody's out to get you because of whatever choice you made in the previous game. Paragon, or Renegade. Like if you freed the Rachni--I could very well see some old school, hard core Krogans wanting to kick your butt for doing that. And showing up at the most unexpected and inopportune times. Something.

But BW did not do that. A couple of brief cameos and sum email really doesn't cut it. And the Renegades didn't even get that. Although, they paid the same amount of money for the game.

It's not fair, and it's not fun. Yet, I feel like we're squabbling over crumbs. The truth of the matter is that BW didn't really grab at the idea of choice and consequence the way they could have. The way they should have.

Idk how ME3 is gonna turn out. Perhaps we'll see more of the choices fleshed out. Regardless, I'm still looking fwd to the game. And I've enjoyed the other 2 games.

Frankly, I wish they'd throw out the whole P vs R point system anyway. I don't care for it. Just give me my choices and allow me to make the best decision I can at that moment. I don't like having to rack up points one way or the other in order to talk down a squaddie, or save their life. Because then I don't feel like I have the freedom to really make the choices I want because I know if I don't fill up that bar, someone's gonna die.

[Troika0]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well can't really against that because if that's your opinion, that's your opinion. For me personally ME2 is one of the best games I ever played. RPG or not.

Great, that's a bit of a non sequitor, but I also enjoyed playing ME2 despite the dismal plot and mediocre gameplay. In fact, I like it more than the first.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

rapscallioness wrote...

I'm a Paragon player, but I have to say that the Renegades have a fair point.

I can't remember exactly who said what, but it's true that there was no true diverging path in the game. Not that we've seen so far.

And Saphra has a fair point, too. I've never played as Renegade, but if it's the same as a non-import---that sux. It does.

If you hype a game as "choice and consequence shaping the story"--to some degree at least, then you need to follow thru. I love BW and I love ME games, but I haven't seen that. Even as a Paragon.

Yes, Paragon players did get a lil extra content. And content is content. But wow, it was some pretty lame "extra content". I was expecting something more along the lines of a brief side mission, or two that reflected whatever choices the player made.

Even some continuing theme thru the game where somebody's out to get you because of whatever choice you made in the previous game. Paragon, or Renegade. Like if you freed the Rachni--I could very well see some old school, hard core Krogans wanting to kick your butt for doing that. And showing up at the most unexpected and inopportune times. Something.

But BW did not do that. A couple of brief cameos and sum email really doesn't cut it. And the Renegades didn't even get that. Although, they paid the same amount of money for the game.

It's not fair, and it's not fun. Yet, I feel like we're squabbling over crumbs. The truth of the matter is that BW didn't really grab at the idea of choice and consequence the way they could have. The way they should have.

Idk how ME3 is gonna turn out. Perhaps we'll see more of the choices fleshed out. Regardless, I'm still looking fwd to the game. And I've enjoyed the other 2 games.

Frankly, I wish they'd throw out the whole P vs R point system anyway. I don't care for it. Just give me my choices and allow me to make the best decision I can at that moment. I don't like having to rack up points one way or the other in order to talk down a squaddie, or save their life. Because then I don't feel like I have the freedom to really make the choices I want because I know if I don't fill up that bar, someone's gonna die.

Nice to hear an objective observer who can call a fault when they see one.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well can't really against that because if that's your opinion, that's your opinion. For me personally ME2 is one of the best games I ever played. RPG or not.

Being good as a game and good as an RPG are two entirely different things.


Bioware is good at establishing roles, but their handling of choices is pretty weak. It's just stuff that... happens, and then never matters after. No divergent plotlines, few re-occuring consequences: even the choices just disappear for the rest of a game to be briefly referenced in the next, rather than play re-occuring roles.

Deus Ex, Human Revolution could teach quite a bit about how to let Choices shape an RPG experience.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

AlexXIV wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

What did Hackett say had you done all-Paragon? I don't remember not getting Hackett praise for giving Paragon answers.

And I only wish that Paragon = auto-win was an exaggeration... but we both know it isn't.

Because the paragon choice is to talk about Saren, the neutral choice is to say you can't comment on it. The first two paragon choices are about shepard being pro-human and about the normandy being co-built by turians and humans, the third question is about Saren and thus top secret. The paragon choice is to confirm that you are looking for Saren, the neutral choice is to say you can't comment on your current assignment because it is top secret. So the neutral option is the best and paragon is only second best. If you have a save game there just try it. I don't remember it word by word.

Actually when asked about Saren, there is no blue (or red)-button option.  No Paragon/Renegade points for that either that I know of.  So there you actually (and legitimately) had to make a choice. 

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 27 décembre 2011 - 01:55 .

[Troika0]

rapscallioness wrote...

Frankly, I wish they'd throw out the whole P vs R point system anyway. I don't care for it. Just give me my choices and allow me to make the best decision I can at that moment. I don't like having to rack up points one way or the other in order to talk down a squaddie, or save their life. Because then I don't feel like I have the freedom to really make the choices I want because I know if I don't fill up that bar, someone's gonna die.

While throwing out the morality system wouldn't ameliorate the problems cited in this thread, I would definitely be in favor of it's omission, especially since what conceptually differentiates paragon form renegade has been--to date--pretty murky. A pure paragon will go above and beyond the call of duty and rescue and entire colony or the council, but will then also intimidate people, circumvent legal procedures, and brainwash an entire race. Blam, the data points are just all over the place and barely establish a "white hatted sheriff" and "grey hatted outlaw" personas.

[rapscallioness]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well can't really against that because if that's your opinion, that's your opinion. For me personally ME2 is one of the best games I ever played. RPG or not.

Being good as a game and good as an RPG are two entirely different things.


Bioware is good at establishing roles, but their handling of choices is pretty weak. It's just stuff that... happens, and then never matters after. No divergent plotlines, few re-occuring consequences: even the choices just disappear for the rest of a game to be briefly referenced in the next, rather than play re-occuring roles.

Deus Ex, Human Revolution could teach quite a bit about how to let Choices shape an RPG experience.

I've heard that the witcher2 did pretty good at that (i think); and---alpha protocol? I haven't played those, so idk.

What I'm wondering tho, is does trying to implement that system over the span of a trilogy/imports and all that pose a unique challenge? Becasue these other games, from what I hear, do it well, but it's only in the context of one game.

And I pose the question srsly. Because BW strikes me as bright, hard working ppl. So....wat happened?

[Troika0]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Deus Ex, Human Revolution could teach quite a bit about how to let Choices shape an RPG experience.

DE:HR had some real nice C&C, especially that one particular moment in Hengsha that had far reaching effects much later in the game. More incidents like that would be fabulous.

I've heard that the witcher2 did pretty good at that (i think); and---alpha protocol? I haven't played those, so idk.

Alpha Protocol has some nice C&C that I think make putting up with its poor gameplay worth the effort. As for the Witcher 2, it's second act is pretty substatial in terms of content divergence.

If I recall correctly, Bethesda games used to be like this as well, with guild memberships being mutually exclusive, meaning you couldn't be a member of both the mage and fighter guild.

Modifié par Troika0, 27 décembre 2011 - 02:06 .

[rapscallioness]

Troika0 wrote...

rapscallioness wrote...

Frankly, I wish they'd throw out the whole P vs R point system anyway. I don't care for it. Just give me my choices and allow me to make the best decision I can at that moment. I don't like having to rack up points one way or the other in order to talk down a squaddie, or save their life. Because then I don't feel like I have the freedom to really make the choices I want because I know if I don't fill up that bar, someone's gonna die.

While throwing out the morality system wouldn't ameliorate the problems cited in this thread, I would definitely be in favor of it's omission, especially since what conceptually differentiates paragon form renegade has been--to date--pretty murky. A pure paragon will go above and beyond the call of duty and rescue and entire colony or the council, but will then also intimidate people, circumvent legal procedures, and brainwash an entire race. Blam, the data points are just all over the place and barely establish a "white hatted sheriff" and "grey hatted outlaw" personas.

Oh, yeah. cuz I definitely brainwashed the geth for purely selfish reasons. how that got called paragon...idk.

imo, shepard is really a grey area persona. perhaps, the whole para/rene system seemed like a good idea at the time (like the SM), but later became a set of chains for the devs.

[HiroVoid]

Since different people make different dialogue choices depending on who's writing the mission you're at, what Paragon and Renegade can really change from the person writing that mission.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 27 décembre 2011 - 02:06 .

[HiroVoid]

rapscallioness wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well can't really against that because if that's your opinion, that's your opinion. For me personally ME2 is one of the best games I ever played. RPG or not.

Being good as a game and good as an RPG are two entirely different things.


Bioware is good at establishing roles, but their handling of choices is pretty weak. It's just stuff that... happens, and then never matters after. No divergent plotlines, few re-occuring consequences: even the choices just disappear for the rest of a game to be briefly referenced in the next, rather than play re-occuring roles.

Deus Ex, Human Revolution could teach quite a bit about how to let Choices shape an RPG experience.

Alpha Protocol is pretty much the master on the choices part.  Too bad it probably won't get a sequel though the devs can still use the concepts and ideas.

I've heard that the witcher2 did pretty good at that (i think); and---alpha protocol? I haven't played those, so idk.

What I'm wondering tho, is does trying to implement that system over the span of a trilogy/imports and all that pose a unique challenge? Becasue these other games, from what I hear, do it well, but it's only in the context of one game.

And I pose the question srsly. Because BW strikes me as bright, hard working ppl. So....wat happened?

Alpha Protocol's pretty much the master at the 'choices' part.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 27 décembre 2011 - 02:08 .

[rapscallioness]

HiroVoid wrote...

Since different people make different dialogue choices depending on who's writing the mission you're at, what Paragon and Renegade can really change from the person writing that mission.

.....you know what, I never even thought about that.