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Renagade vs Paragon - "Whats the Beef?"


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#276
AlexXIV

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GodWood wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
Load of crap.

Oh here he goes.




For two, letting Vido escape is a failure. A failure far too large to constitute as much as a twinkie, let alone cake. The dude who killed/enslaved innocents is alive and well because you chose to try to save other ones. Whatever victory can be taken away from saving workers is almost completely negated by that very outcome.

If this is what a paragon believes when they make the choice, then why make the choice? You're well aware he's going to escape, when you hurp durr let him escape. So naturally if you let him escape you must see that as a necessary sacrifice to ensure the survival of the innocents.
Saving the innocents would be the victory. Getting Zaeed's loyalty would be a bonus.





Having your cake and eating it would be, saving the workers, and still catching Vido. As is, it's a mission failure with the off-chance of being able to get his loyalty in the end.

No it's the player betraying a squadmate so he can save the innocents and then still getting the squadmates loyalty in the end anyways.

It is a paragon choice because you would have to let people die to get the criminal. That's not paragon-like. If you were cop chasing a criminal and on the way people get in danger you are supposed to help the people and let the criminal go. There is no 'win at all costs'. That's why it is a paragon choice, a must be for paragons, to save the workers. You still fail at getting the Blue Suns leader, which is a fail.

Personally I wouldn't mind if we didn't get Zaeed's loyality by failing this quest, since I don't like the guy and he just uses up room and air on my ship anyway.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 27 décembre 2011 - 09:47 .


#277
Nashiktal

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You know I actually like the "persuading" of zaeed at the end of the paragon path. Its reigning zaeed in and not letting him decide the parameters of the mission at hand. He is supposed to listen and follow your orders after all, and is one of the few times the paragon gets to be a "badass."

The whole point of going to the planet was to save the workers. That was the mission assigned, and that is what you are supposed to do. Killing vido was/is zaeeds personal objective that he can fulfill any time he wants to later.

Not saying renegades don't get enough love, but I don't see zaeeds loyalty mission as a good example.

#278
AlexXIV

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well can't really against that because if that's your opinion, that's your opinion. For me personally ME2 is one of the best games I ever played. RPG or not.

Being good as a game and good as an RPG are two entirely different things.


Bioware is good at establishing roles, but their handling of choices is pretty weak. It's just stuff that... happens, and then never matters after. No divergent plotlines, few re-occuring consequences: even the choices just disappear for the rest of a game to be briefly referenced in the next, rather than play re-occuring roles.

Deus Ex, Human Revolution could teach quite a bit about how to let Choices shape an RPG experience.

If that's the agenda of people complaining about 'paragon favoritism' then why don't they argue for more meaninful choices instead of discrediting their own points by jumping in the renegade vs. paragon fray every time. The problem we have at hand is not that paragons get everything and renegades get nothing. The problem is that choices don't matter as much as we ALL wish it would. So why do renegades fight paragons instead of joining forces and together make a case to Bioware? All Bioware is seeing here is probably petty bickering between two different factions which they can even see as a sort of positive sign that their plot conjures so much controversy.

I really don't question your claim that choices are too shallow. I actually found Seb's fun picture of all choices eventually leading back to the same path pretty accurate. Despite the fact it was a bit exaggerated for comedy reasons. So why split the community here and fight about scraps under the table when we should together confront Bioware that we deserve a chair at the table?

#279
AlexXIV

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Nashiktal wrote...

You know I actually like the "persuading" of zaeed at the end of the paragon path. Its reigning zaeed in and not letting him decide the parameters of the mission at hand. He is supposed to listen and follow your orders after all, and is one of the few times the paragon gets to be a "badass."

The whole point of going to the planet was to save the workers. That was the mission assigned, and that is what you are supposed to do. Killing vido was/is zaeeds personal objective that he can fulfill any time he wants to later.

Not saying renegades don't get enough love, but I don't see zaeeds loyalty mission as a good example.

Actually 'gaining loyality' is more than 'reigning someone in temporarily'. I mean he was on the mission from start, even without doing his quest. And if you keep him out of harms way he survives the SM without the LM. That what I do mostly anyway because I save the DLC character quests for after the SM to get the dialogues with Legion.

Anyway, what we get at the end of Zaeed's mission is a 'change of heart'. After being ruthless enough to blow up the plant to begin with we then get a Zaeed who agrees that saving the workers was the right call even if Vido gets away. That's BS tbh. It breaks Zaeed's character and lets him look like a complete idiot for causing the fire to begin with.

#280
kumquats

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AlexXIV wrote...


Anyway, what we get at the end of Zaeed's mission is a 'change of heart'. After being ruthless enough to blow up the plant to begin with we then get a Zaeed who agrees that saving the workers was the right call even if Vido gets away. That's BS tbh. It breaks Zaeed's character and lets him look like a complete idiot for causing the fire to begin with.


LoL. Are you people actually playing the game? :D

#281
AlexXIV

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kumquats wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...


Anyway, what we get at the end of Zaeed's mission is a 'change of heart'. After being ruthless enough to blow up the plant to begin with we then get a Zaeed who agrees that saving the workers was the right call even if Vido gets away. That's BS tbh. It breaks Zaeed's character and lets him look like a complete idiot for causing the fire to begin with.


LoL. Are you people actually playing the game? :D

What game? I read it in the newspaper.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 27 décembre 2011 - 11:22 .


#282
kumquats

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AlexXIV wrote...

What game? I read it in the newspaper.


Okay, journalism these days is full of bs. Don't believe them, they even copy the same mistakes all over the world.

#283
AlexXIV

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kumquats wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

What game? I read it in the newspaper.


Okay, journalism these days is full of bs. Don't believe them, they even copy the same mistakes all over the world.

That's why I am here. BSN is the best and most unbiased source of information on about everything.

#284
kumquats

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AlexXIV wrote...

kumquats wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

What game? I read it in the newspaper.


Okay, journalism these days is full of bs. Don't believe them, they even copy the same mistakes all over the world.

That's why I am here. BSN is the best and most unbiased source of information on about everything.


Agreed. If I write on the BSN that the world is 4 million years old, people will demand blood and the nerdrage will destroy the forum.
Journalists just copy that information and feed people false information for the LuLz.

One day I will find that journalist and everyone who copied that bs.

#285
AlexXIV

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kumquats wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

kumquats wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

What game? I read it in the newspaper.


Okay, journalism these days is full of bs. Don't believe them, they even copy the same mistakes all over the world.

That's why I am here. BSN is the best and most unbiased source of information on about everything.


Agreed. If I write on the BSN that the world is 4 million years old, people will demand blood and the nerdrage will destroy the forum.
Journalists just copy that information and feed people false information for the LuLz.

One day I will find that journalist and everyone who copied that bs.


Good luck with that. Also, we all know the world is only about 10,000 years old because that's when god built it. And I wouldn't advice to argue with god because he is a really sore loser. Ask Lucifer for reference.

#286
Dean_the_Young

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AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well can't really against that because if that's your opinion, that's your opinion. For me personally ME2 is one of the best games I ever played. RPG or not.

Being good as a game and good as an RPG are two entirely different things.


Bioware is good at establishing roles, but their handling of choices is pretty weak. It's just stuff that... happens, and then never matters after. No divergent plotlines, few re-occuring consequences: even the choices just disappear for the rest of a game to be briefly referenced in the next, rather than play re-occuring roles.

Deus Ex, Human Revolution could teach quite a bit about how to let Choices shape an RPG experience.

If that's the agenda of people complaining about 'paragon favoritism'then why don't they argue for more meaninful choices instead of discrediting their own points by jumping in the renegade vs. paragon fray every time.

What is this, a conspiracy? Do you think we pre-plan amongst ourselves?

There are two distinct issues. One does not discredit the other.



The problem we have at hand is not that paragons get everything and renegades get nothing. The problem is that choices don't matter as much as we ALL wish it would. So why do renegades fight paragons instead of joining forces and together make a case to Bioware?

For one, because there isn't a Renegade vs. Paragon divide here. For another, there are two different issues... which also don't suffer a P/R divide.

That choices don't matter much is a problem, though it's also inherent in the Bioware design philosophy for Mass Effect. That what does carryover in ME2 was highly slanted towards Paragons is also a problem, but Bioware's goal of equivalence was very much not a public design intent. If you think one issueis more prevalent than the other, it's because you don't recognize that these issues come up from time to time on their own.


All Bioware is seeing here is probably petty bickering between two different factions which they can even see as a sort of positive sign that their plot conjures so much controversy.

After reading your post, I can't imagine in the least why they might think that.
'

I really don't question your claim that choices are too shallow. I actually found Seb's fun picture of all choices eventually leading back to the same path pretty accurate. Despite the fact it was a bit exaggerated for comedy reasons. So why split the community here and fight about scraps under the table when we should together confront Bioware that we deserve a chair at the table?

Indeed, why are you splitting the community by ignorring that there are two problems that should both be raised?

Though your amateur collectivism rhetoric rather hints as to why...

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 décembre 2011 - 12:36 .


#287
AlexXIV

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Well seeing how long you post in this forum and how little you accomplished (aka nothing) I think you have the better clue than I. Why first deal with one problem, solve it, and move to the next when we can fight about all topics at once, lose context and achieve nothing. That's much better.

#288
Dean_the_Young

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AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Well seeing how long you post in this forum and how little you accomplished (aka nothing) I think you have the better clue than I. Why first deal with one problem, solve it, and move to the next when we can fight about all topics at once, lose context and achieve nothing. That's much better.

Alright, that's just downright idiotic.


There is no progression of results to be seen because they haven't released another Mass Effect game yet.

The only way to know if they consider any community feedback is when they release the next game.


It doesn't matter if the community holds together until it sees an improvement. There is no onus on individual accomplishment of changing the game. Mass Effect is not some beta project they release to us as it's being created. If you had it your way and achieved the mythical consensus of getting everyone to agree on one thing at a time worked, it would only give any Bioware watchers one issue of note.

One problem at a time until you see that they've 'fixed' it would be one problem, total.


Is it simply beyond you how stupid an approach that is to critiquing a massive game with a multitude of flaws is?

Carryover consequences may not even be in the top-ten list of things ME2 players cared about and wanted fixed. Mass Effect 2 was quite popular for reasons entirely removed from carryover mechanics, and had much bigger concerns. A broken Paragon/Renegade persuasion system, a hand-waved ressurection that doesn't synch well with prior lore, significantcharacter writing problems, and plot railroading all have a much higher claim to need to be fixed. By your own system, 'consequences' would never be fixed because they'd just muddy the context.

Of course, your own system is critically flawed because 'the community' is not some gestalt intellect that can even reach consensus. Ammateur collectivism aside, it's a widely ranging group with widely ranging priorities, beliefs, and concerns... all of which would compete with eachother to be the 'focus until improvment.' In a setting of contradicting views, trying to silence all those that would 'distract' isn't only futile: it's counter productive to serving the community.

Now, fortunately Bioware employs talented people whose job is to understand context, categorize feedback, and give it due thought. As amazing as it may be, people get paid to understand the distinction between when feedback goes 'We think Paragon and Renegade aren't equivalent like you promised', and distinguish that from people whose concern is 'We think your consequences for the choices are lacking.'

Bioware is many things, but staffed by idiots is not one of them.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 décembre 2011 - 01:01 .


#289
AlexXIV

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Well it would be already an accomplishment to have one thread that stays on one topic. But obviously we have these Renegade vs Paragon style of threads who serve as sort of melting pot for all issues everyone has with the game. Honestly, as long as choices don't matter, how can you argue that Paragons and Renegades don't get the same treatment? That's in itself contradictionary. Do they get the same or do they not? First you make decisions actually count for something, then you make sure both parts are even.

Not to mention the whole paragon/renegade system should be dumped. I said it before, your 'alignment' doesn't automtically make you a charming or intimidating person. There shouldn't be alignment at all. Only choices and consequences. There should be a persuasion/intimidation skill instead. There should be factions that you can appease or screw over. All these things. And you are arguing about how to fix paragon/renegade system when it is a stupid system to begin with. It worked for KotOR because in Star Wars you have the Force.

ME is supposed to be more down to earth. At least that's how I understand it. So what is the paragon/renegade thing for? Especially if you can raise it in neglectable decisions. It is just a flawed system that can be exploited at any time to apoint it doesn't make the least sense. Scrap it and good. No more Renegades and no more Paragons, only people who make decisions. Then we can save at least 50% of useless threads.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 27 décembre 2011 - 01:21 .


#290
Dean_the_Young

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AlexXIV wrote...

Well it would be already an accomplishment to have one thread that stays on one topic

It is.


But obviously we have these Renegade vs Paragon style of threads who serve as sort of melting pot for all issues everyone has with the game. Honestly, as long as choices don't matter, how can you argue that Paragons and Renegades don't get the same treatment? That's in itself contradictionary. Do they get the same or do they not? First you make decisions actually count for something, then you make sure both parts are even.

It's not contradictory when you realize there are two separate, independent complains which are not mutually exclusive or reliant on eachother.

There are those who feel what was given as consequences wasn't enough.
There are those who feel that what was given, wasn't balanced.

You can hold the first without holding the second. You can hold the second without holding the first. And both of these are possible to hold at the same time. 



Not to mention the whole paragon/renegade system should be dumped. I said it before, your 'alignment' doesn't automtically make you a charming or intimidating person. There shouldn't be alignment at all. Only choices and consequences. There should be a persuasion/intimidation skill instead. There should be factions that you can appease or screw over. All these things. And you are arguing about how to fix paragon/renegade system when it is a stupid system to begin with. It worked for KotOR because in Star Wars you have the Force.

KotOR had its own Paragon/Renegade system. It was called Lightside and Darkside. Jade Empire had Fist and Palm. Dragon Age has a number of P/R spectrums, called 'approval' and 'dislike.' Bipolar alignment is a staple of Bioware RPGs: even more 'nuanced' alignment systems rely on bipolar measurements (Fallout: Vegas factional alignment is 'like' and 'dislike'.)

Tying persuasion to aggregate morality does have a sense behind it. Open-ended persions skills are not only notoriously broken in many RPGs, but also invite inconsistency. There are sound reasons behind it, though execution struggles. Execution always struggles. It was a design concept intrensic with the Bioware design of the Mass Effect universe, and Bioware has no real reason to remove it.

ME is supposed to be more down to earth. At least that's how I understand it. So what is the paragon/renegade thing for? Especially if you can raise it in neglectable decisions. It is just a flawed system that can be exploited at any time to apoint it doesn't make the least sense. Scrap it and good. No more Renegades and no more Paragons, only people who make decisions. Then we can save at least 50% of useless threads.

Well, that makes two areas your understanding is lacking in.

Go count threads. You'll understand eventually.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 décembre 2011 - 01:39 .


#291
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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Nashiktal wrote...

You know I actually like the "persuading" of zaeed at the end of the paragon path. Its reigning zaeed in and not letting him decide the parameters of the mission at hand. He is supposed to listen and follow your orders after all, and is one of the few times the paragon gets to be a "badass."

The whole point of going to the planet was to save the workers. That was the mission assigned, and that is what you are supposed to do. Killing vido was/is zaeeds personal objective that he can fulfill any time he wants to later.


I understand that, but it is also a case of "have your cake and eat it too". I think it might have been better if Zaeed would die at the end unless you passed a persuade which let you keep him as a squadmate but he wouldn't be loyal. That could still be done in a way to let the Paragon have a badass scene.

#292
Dean_the_Young

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Or, what I would have preferred, if the Tali mission hadn't had those 'not exiled and loyal' persuades, but did have a Renegade boot-to-the-rear persuade for loyalty to browbeat Tali about her priorities. The 'incite the crowd' could be a third-way (that would be open to most Paragons, but hey), but the choice itself would be the handling of the evidence. Renegade threatens to lose Tali's loyalty, but if Zaeed's can be salvaged then so should hers.

The Zaeed decision wouldn't annoy me as much if it weren't in contrast to the Tali context before it. If you're going to make a character's loyalty the pretext of the choice, either let both of them have a cop-out or neither of them.

#293
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>Dean_the_Young
I agree with much of what you say, and you are quite right that Bioware games have a tradition of bipolar alignment. But I would like to point out the Jade empire hinted at a four fielder similar to that which I described earlier (closed fist, open palm, benign or malign) It was just not really implemented. It could have been possible to have characters who 1) while focusing on strength and struggle, also wanted to help others be stronger and 2) those who wanted everyone in their designated place regardless of it causing suffering or injustice.

Modifié par Random citizen, 27 décembre 2011 - 02:03 .


#294
kumquats

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Dean_the_Young wrote...
KotOR had its own Paragon/Renegade system. It was called Lightside and Darkside.


But you do understand that Kotor and ME are different alignment systems, right?

#295
AlexXIV

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Well you can even tie in morality. There is nothing against that but then you have to be careful to do it right. Because if people disagree on morale questions as they obviously do, you end up looking like the preachy type. But morality alone can't be a measure for everything. As I said, factions do that much better, especially if factions and their quests are somehow linked with each other. So that you help one faction, you may oppose another. In FONV you also had karma. But even then it was questionable how people 'see your karma' as for example Cass. I mean it makes sense in Star Wars because there is the Force and it can actually be felt. But for example Samara judging you on your paragon/renegade points instead of actual things you did or didn't do is BS imo.

As they say 'the right thing changes from place to place' because laws are usually regional, not universal. So why not hide the morality issue behind a simple action-reaction system. If you do this, you get that. Of course it is more complicated probably that having this bipolar thing but it is also more accurate and treats NPCs like real people more than just part of a program that calculates it's opinion on you on the 'alignment-counter'.

You can have different angles to a problem. For example a faction doesn't like you because you ruined your faction standing with them. But they are usually good natured and recognize your good reputation or whatever. So they would have a more diverse opinion of you. Honestly, having mostly only two paths to go is not really much for an RPG. That's only one step from no options at all. You could have faction with races, faction with organisations, faction with common people, faction with the upper class, faction with intellectuals, whatever.

The point is not to have morality or not, it is that people can have more than one angle to regard you. Some more personal, some more general. One beef I have for example with the ME1 crew. With exception of Wrex if you save them you have to regain their friendship again. As if gaining it in ME1 didn't count. Why?

#296
Dean_the_Young

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AlexXIV wrote...

Well you can even tie in morality. There is nothing against that but then you have to be careful to do it right. Because if people disagree on morale questions as they obviously do, you end up looking like the preachy type. But morality alone can't be a measure for everything. As I said, factions do that much better, especially if factions and their quests are somehow linked with each other. So that you help one faction, you may oppose another. In FONV you also had karma. But even then it was questionable how people 'see your karma' as for example Cass. I mean it makes sense in Star Wars because there is the Force and it can actually be felt. But for example Samara judging you on your paragon/renegade points instead of actual things you did or didn't do is BS imo.

Factionalism is a design philosophy that doesn't apply in many cases... such as a heroic adventure with a character like Shepard. It is a form of alignment, but not an all-encompasing one. Factional alignment had no role in ME1 (you were an Alliance officer and a Spectre, and the two never came into contact), and Shepard's lack of available factions was a point of focus in ME2 (that Cerberus was the only party interested in stopping the Collectors). Mass Effect was never a faction-sympathetic story premise.

Mass Effect's alignment system is less of a moral ideology and more of a tone-based alignment. It has flaws, but it is neither unworkable or unimprovable. It is not so bad as to warrant throwing out at the end of the series.


As they say 'the right thing changes from place to place' because laws are usually regional, not universal. So why not hide the morality issue behind a simple action-reaction system. If you do this, you get that. Of course it is more complicated probably that having this bipolar thing but it is also more accurate and treats NPCs like real people more than just part of a program that calculates it's opinion on you on the 'alignment-counter'.

Because it is too complicated for too little gain. The hyper-majority of characters in the game make no reference to your morality at all either way.


Action-reaction designs are notoriously more complex, and the Bioware philosophy is to have a stable game with their system of writers. Intricate action-reaction systems, like in Deus Ex, have to be designed from the ground up, and take far longer to design. That isn't the type of RPG Bioware intended to make in the first place, and their modular style is more than strong enough to win praise and accolades as is, for much less trouble. it can be improved, but modular writing does not work with action-reaction design unless you make them even more superficial.

You can have different angles to a problem. For example a faction doesn't like you because you ruined your faction standing with them. But they are usually good natured and recognize your good reputation or whatever. So they would have a more diverse opinion of you. Honestly, having mostly only two paths to go is not really much for an RPG. That's only one step from no options at all. You could have faction with races, faction with organisations, faction with common people, faction with the upper class, faction with intellectuals, whatever.

That works in games like Fallout and Deus because games like that are made to have many solutions to the same problem. Mass Effect has never been that genre of RPG: it has always been a 'shoot through to the single solution' design, and that's simply a style decision of the franchise. Mass Effect is an RPG in terms of dialogue and choices, not in means to solve problems.

Franchises work by sticking to not only common story themes (the Reapers), but common styles of game creation and game mechanics. It's part of the culture that makes a franchise by a single developer a franchise. The P/R morality system is as much a part of the mass effect universe as lightside-darkside is the starwars universe.


The point is not to have morality or not, it is that people can have more than one angle to regard you. Some more personal, some more general. One beef I have for example with the ME1 crew. With exception of Wrex if you save them you have to regain their friendship again. As if gaining it in ME1 didn't count. Why?

Because Mass Effect 2 was always centered around improving your team to being 'focused', and never about regaining friendship. You never stopped being friends with Garus or Tali or Wrex, the Virmire Surivior was a separate subplot in response to Cerberus, and Liara's distance was a storyline resolved in Shadow Broker. Liara and the VS were removed in part to justify them not being on the Suicide Mission, and thus available for ME3.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 décembre 2011 - 03:11 .


#297
AlexXIV

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Well ok, stability is a good factor. But I guess there is a reason why Bethesda have higher sales than Bioware. I like Bioware for being that stable and I hate Bethesda sometimes that so many things go wrong in their games. Be it crashes or quests that don't work or how easy it is to screw up a quest if you don't follow a certain path. But the question is probably if not more people would appreciate a more 'open' approach even if it means more bugs and crashes. I don't want Bioware to turn into Bethesda, but they could have more RPG elements. I mean if you strip them down to those that are really only necessary then people start calling it action game. Because almost every game has a story. For me personally things can't be complicated enough. And even though I love ME2 there is nothing really complicated about it. Just shut up and drive, so to speak.

#298
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kumquats wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
KotOR had its own Paragon/Renegade system. It was called Lightside and Darkside.


But you do understand that Kotor and ME are different alignment systems, right?


"Different" in theory but in practice? Nope.

#299
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Seboist wrote...

kumquats wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
KotOR had its own Paragon/Renegade system. It was called Lightside and Darkside.


But you do understand that Kotor and ME are different alignment systems, right?


"Different" in theory but in practice? Nope.


OK Seb, I've always considered you friendly and based on what I've seen of the spoilers, I understand why you're upset, but you seriously think that playing both games being a stauch, "humanity must stand on it's own", take NO risks and gain no rewards renegade would net you a better outcome in a GALACTIC war?

#300
DarthCaine

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Seboist wrote...

kumquats wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
KotOR had its own Paragon/Renegade system. It was called Lightside and Darkside.


But you do understand that Kotor and ME are different alignment systems, right?

"Different" in theory but in practice? Nope.

Different in name