337 réponses à ce sujet

[Seboist]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Seboist wrote...

kumquats wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
KotOR had its own Paragon/Renegade system. It was called Lightside and Darkside.

But you do understand that Kotor and ME are different alignment systems, right?

"Different" in theory but in practice? Nope.

OK Seb, I've always considered you friendly and based on what I've seen of the spoilers, I understand why you're upset, but you seriously think that playing both games being a stauch, "humanity must stand on it's own", take NO risks and gain no rewards renegade would net you a better outcome in a GALACTIC war?

Who said anything about humanity standing on it's own? My boss TIM wanted the Quarian,Geth and the Krogans as part of a collective war effort back in ME2.

Besides, if the morality system was properly thought out and wasn't a space jesus wish fulfilment fantasy for Paragon then certain renegade actions would have resulted in more support for renshep from certain groups(ex. Krogan for wiping out Rachni and Quarian for destroying Geth). As it stands Paragon is like a crooked arms dealer that sells to all sides without consequence and makes out like a bandit.

[Labrev]

I think we can hereby add "cake" (in the context of having/eating it) to Arcian's winning post of words that BSN does not know/understand.

[Dave of Canada]

Knights of the Old Republic's Dark Side didn't make the player feel like they've done the "wrong" choice, nor do they lose access on content by doing the dark side choice (instead, they get different content, minor or major). For example, the Dark Side character most likely kills Juhani and suffers the consequences of losing out on a character.

This choice, however, doesn't exist within a "time bubble" where the choice only occured when it was given. You'll encounter people later down the road mentioning it, you even encounter Juhani's lover who's turned to the dark side because of you having killed her. Those who let her live experience her as a companion and all that entails.

You could say the content is imbalanced here, that there's more content to be had on the light side choice of things. This is true, though there's quite some differences on both sides of the scale. Some consequences from light side, some consequences from dark side, both usually involve the player and the world around them in some sense.

The Mass Effect universe suffers greatly, your choices exist within a bubble unless you're paragon. Paragons get pat on the back, they don't suffer consequences from their decisions, they get extra content and are told from time to time that they've done the right thing. What about the Renegade?

This covers argument one from the Paragon / Renegade perspective, the lack of content on the Renegade side. Nobody mentions your decisions (except for the death of the Council, which was done relatively well except for the lack of the second Council's appearance).

See, unlike the Knights of the Old Republic, the decisions don't leave the bubble of time which you make it. You kill the Rachni Queen, hear the Council scold you about it and then move onto the next mission and carry on. The gimmick here being that the consequences for the decision would be coming down the line, people talking about it and the like. Which never occurs, the decision still remains trapped in the past.

The insult that Mass Effect 3's script rubs in our face is that we've done the decision... only to pretty much recieve the exact same situation as the Paragon, a few lines changed and the choice backfiring on us. We don't live with the consequences of our decision, we live with the consequence of our decision driving around in a complete circle and then backfiring. We don't live with the consequences of our decisions.

This is the second issue we have, we're being punished for "our" decisions because we didn't do what the writers intended for their story, they offered a choice and didn't wish to support that reality. They'd rather completely neglect our decision and say "Here's a chance to somehow fix your story".

Most people were furious when they found out Udina was councilor regardless, why is it so hard to understand that some of us feel the same about almost all our decisions?

The third problem we've got is quite simple and doesn't really need to be too explained but the fact of the matter is that Mass Effect always advocated tough decisions, it was part of it's marketing since the start and always told us that no decision was right.

It's a damn shame that it's come to this.

Inb4tl;dr.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 27 décembre 2011 - 07:30 .

[Sisterofshane]

Seboist wrote...


Who said anything about humanity standing on it's own? My boss TIM wanted the Quarian,Geth and the Krogans as part of a collective war effort back in ME2.

Besides, if the morality system was properly thought out and wasn't a space jesus wish fulfilment fantasy for Paragon then certain renegade actions would have resulted in more support for renshep from certain groups(ex. Krogan for wiping out Rachni and Quarian for destroying Geth). As it stands Paragon is like a crooked arms dealer that sells to all sides without consequence and makes out like a bandit.

Deny it all you want, the typical renegade decision usually involves strengthening humanity, being a jerk, and banking on the fact that you really don't need any allies to help you later.  

And as far as TIM wanting help, I don't remember anything about the Quarians, but when it comes down to the Geth and the Krogan, he only wants them if they can be reasonably controlled or subdued (think project Overlord or wanting to keep the Genophage data to appease the Krogans).  He would never rely upon the help that he couldn't manipulate or control directly (think Asari and Turians and Salarians).

Renegades love to talk about how terribly inconsistent and hypocritical paragons are, but rarely look to their own decisions.  How many renegades activated Legion or let Grunt out of his tank after they had melted down the Rachni Queen?  How many decided that Balak/Vido needed to die (even the at the expense of innocents) and yet gave TIM the CB without question?

Renegades complain about the fact that they miss out on content (such as the council in ME2 or speaking to Rana or Shiala in ME2) but when they are given the content they claim it invalidates their choices (for those who have read the spoilers, the rachni example).  But what could you reasonably expect when your choices lead to killing off so many characters?

I'm not saying that the Paragon side is not without it's faults, but I can reasonably see how being a renegade isn't necessarily going to result in sunshine and hapiness in a post-reaper galaxy.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The third problem we've got is quite simple and doesn't really need to be too explained but the fact of the matter is that Mass Effect always advocated tough decisions, it was part of it's marketing since the start and always told us that no decision was right.

It's a damn shame that it's come to this.

Inb4tl;dr.

Kind of funny that the ME1 'tough decisions' trailer never even happened.

I wonder what that mission would have been like?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Mass Effect's alignment system is less of a moral ideology and more of a tone-based alignment. It has flaws, but it is neither unworkable or unimprovable. It is not so bad as to warrant throwing out at the end of the series.

I tend to disagree..

[Dean_the_Young]

Ok.

[Phaedon]

The third problem we've got is quite simple and doesn't really need to be too explained but the fact of the matter is that Mass Effect always advocated tough decisions, it was part of it's marketing since the start and always told us that no decision was right.

Sure, got a source on that?

Last time I checked, there was only a 30 second ad which wanted an interesting punchline that was saying "great decisions lie ahead, none of them easy"

Which is pretty funny, because that trailer was aired well after the devs knew that there was only two semi-tough decisions in ME1.

Modifié par Phaedon, 27 décembre 2011 - 08:02 .

[Phaedon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Kind of funny that the ME1 'tough decisions' trailer never even happened.

I wonder what that mission would have been like?

It wasn't actually a mission. You would just arrive to see several civillians in Noveria dead, if you chose to go to Feros (I think?) first. It's more akin to ME2's post-Reaper IFF missions than a choice.

Not that it was ever supposed to happen. The TV ad was released weeks after the game had gone gold.

Modifié par Phaedon, 27 décembre 2011 - 08:06 .

[CroGamer002]

Phaedon wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Kind of funny that the ME1 'tough decisions' trailer never even happened.

I wonder what that mission would have been like?

It wasn't actually a mission. You would just arrive to see several civillians in Noveria dead, if you chose to go to Feros (I think?) first. It's more akin to ME2's post-Reaper IFF missions than a choice.

Not that it was ever supposed to happen. The TV ad was released weeks after the game had gone gold.

And yet it was about mission and choice that was cut from the game.

Heh.

[Phaedon]

Well, ME1's plot was pretty much a mess anyway. Who knows how many times they rewrote portions of it since E3 2006. The worst part is seeing traces of old plotpoints in the released game, and the plot devices (How everyone joins you on the Citadel, Vigil,etc) used to cover that fact up.

[CroGamer002]

Phaedon wrote...

Well, ME1's plot was pretty much a mess anyway. Who knows how many times they rewrote portions of it since E3 2006. The worst part is seeing traces of old plotpoints in the released game, and the plot devices (How everyone joins you on the Citadel, Vigil,etc) used to cover that fact up.

I'm surprised it still become a great story.

[breakdown71289]

Yeah, makes you wonder how much of the originally planned storyline Bioware Edmonton's going to use for ME3, seeing as how all those story files got leaked not too long ago.

[Phaedon]

breakdown71289 wrote...

Yeah, makes you wonder how much of the originally planned storyline Bioware Edmonton's going to use for ME3, seeing as how all those story files got leaked not too long ago.

Plenty probably. They are using a much tighter development process than they did for ME1. They aren't spending 4 years and releasing a buggy product, that's for sure.

Mesina2 wrote...
I'm surprised it still become a great story.

I don't actually really like the story that much, until the end at least. What made it for me was the universe, which shouldn't have changed that much.

[Seboist]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Seboist wrote...


Who said anything about humanity standing on it's own? My boss TIM wanted the Quarian,Geth and the Krogans as part of a collective war effort back in ME2.

Besides, if the morality system was properly thought out and wasn't a space jesus wish fulfilment fantasy for Paragon then certain renegade actions would have resulted in more support for renshep from certain groups(ex. Krogan for wiping out Rachni and Quarian for destroying Geth). As it stands Paragon is like a crooked arms dealer that sells to all sides without consequence and makes out like a bandit.

Deny it all you want, the typical renegade decision usually involves strengthening humanity, being a jerk, and banking on the fact that you really don't need any allies to help you later.  

And as far as TIM wanting help, I don't remember anything about the Quarians, but when it comes down to the Geth and the Krogan, he only wants them if they can be reasonably controlled or subdued (think project Overlord or wanting to keep the Genophage data to appease the Krogans).  He would never rely upon the help that he couldn't manipulate or control directly (think Asari and Turians and Salarians).

Renegades love to talk about how terribly inconsistent and hypocritical paragons are, but rarely look to their own decisions.  How many renegades activated Legion or let Grunt out of his tank after they had melted down the Rachni Queen?  How many decided that Balak/Vido needed to die (even the at the expense of innocents) and yet gave TIM the CB without question?

Renegades complain about the fact that they miss out on content (such as the council in ME2 or speaking to Rana or Shiala in ME2) but when they are given the content they claim it invalidates their choices (for those who have read the spoilers, the rachni example).  But what could you reasonably expect when your choices lead to killing off so many characters?

I'm not saying that the Paragon side is not without it's faults, but I can reasonably see how being a renegade isn't necessarily going to result in sunshine and hapiness in a post-reaper galaxy.

You do realize that certain choices like killing the Queen, bombing the heretics and destroying genophage cure fit the bill of a council loyalist than the Paragon alternatives,no? That is, if one's not trying role play a blubbering idealist who wants to be a space jesus and have everyone hold hands and sing kumbaya or a space troll who wants to kill/destroy things just for the lulz.

My original Shepard let the Queen go and kept the genophage data because she wanted to undermine the council races by empowering it's long time enemies. You seem to be under the impression that playing "renegade" or "humancentric/nationalist" is just mindlessly picking every lower right option.  Even my most Renegade Shepard is one third Paragon as the choices per alignment are all over the place.

Here's all the TIM bits about the Geth,Krogan and Quarians from TIM;

TIM worried about a Geth retaliation agianst the Quarians after Haestrom.

Recruited Tali'Zorah for the team.
Though loyal to Shepard, Tali’Zorah's antagonism toward Cerberus
necessitates observation. Also sending recon units to examine geth
activities in case activities on Haestrom provoke action.

TIM concerned that Quaran political instability will harm the collective war effort against the Reapers and that they're needed.

Tali Cleared without New Evidence: Tali’Zorah has been cleared
of all charges, and her trust in Shepard ensures her loyalty on the
mission. Political ramifications of quarian war efforts against geth are
troubling. Likely to need quarian forces against Reapers. Cannot risk
additional instability.
Tali Cleared with New Evidence: While Tali'Zorah has been
cleared of all charges, she seems traumatized by the public revelation
of her father's crimes. She may not be at full efficiency. Political
ramifications of quarian war efforts against geth are troubling. Likely
to need quarian forces against Reapers. Cannot risk additional
instability.
Tali Convicted: While Tali'Zorah has been exiled, she
remains in good spirits. More importantly, she now trusts Shepard and
has no other ties to confuse issues of loyalty. Political ramifications
of quarian war efforts against geth are troubling. Likely to need
quarian forces against Reapers. Cannot risk additional instability.

TIM being supportive of recruiting the Geth's help when recruiting Legion.

From: Illusive Man



Shepard,



I'm pleased that you were able to recover the Reaper IFF, and I've sent
EDI all the necessary protocols to get it integrated successfully into
the Normandy's systems. With luck, this will give us the ability to get
through the Omega-4 relay and take the fight to the Collectors on our
own terms.



I've been notified about the geth and your decision to keep it. If you
believe it can be trusted, then go ahead and activate it. Just make sure
that EDI is adequately protected against any hacking attempts.



It's not necessarily the decision I would have made, Shepard, but this
is your call. You've already cast a wide net in your recruiting efforts,
and if the geth are willing to fight the Collectors, then we can use
them on the team. I trust you to get the job done, whatever it takes.

And again with the rewrite of the Heretics.

Paragon Route: Rewriting of geth heretics will make main geth
faction significantly more powerful. Given perception of Reapers, they
may be possible allies, though long-term cooperation remains unlikely.
Regardless, data recovered from geth station offered valuable insight
into AI social and technological processes. Legion should be committed
to the mission after Shepard's help with the geth heretics.

Finally here we have TIM expressing support of curing the genophage in order to recruit the Krogans as very valuable shock troops against the Reapers(which makes the Sur'Kesh mission in ME3 completely nonsensical).

Data Saved: Troubled by Clan Weyrloc’s progress toward genophage
cure without Cerberus knowledge. Cure data may prove useful. Krogan
dangerous, but if recruited as shock troops against Reapers, extremely
valuable.

So yeah, ME2 established that TIM wanted to revive Shepard in order for him/her to recruit a broad coaliton against the Reapers.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

[quote]breakdown71289 wrote...

Yeah, makes you wonder how much of the originally planned storyline Bioware Edmonton's going to use for ME3, seeing as how all those story files got leaked not too long ago.[/quote]
Plenty probably. They are using a much tighter development process than they did for ME1. They aren't spending 4 years and releasing a buggy product, that's for sure.
[/quote]The general parts that aren't used will probably the be exception. I wouldn't put it past them to do a good deal of tweaking on the final script and context, for example: a lot of situations can be painfully dumb in abstract, but make perfect sense in execution when new context is added.


[quote]Mesina2 wrote...
I'm surprised it still become a great story.[/quote]
I don't actually really like the story that much, until the end at least. What made it for me was the universe, which shouldn't have changed that much.
[/quote]Compared to ME2?

Personally, I always felt it was a shame what Bioware did with the Terminus. Instead of some intimidating force of consequence and rival to the Council, it turned out to be one crime-ridden station only loosely controlled by a pirate queen, three mercenary groups of no real consequence, and exists as the place to be colonized by Citadel species.

Where were the Terminus empires? The warlords and dictators and species of every stripe and ideology? Why was Omega even presented as important to the Terminus, when it's just a small space colony?

[Phaedon]

[quote][quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
Plenty probably. They are using a much tighter development process than they did for ME1. They aren't spending 4 years and releasing a buggy product, that's for sure.
[/quote]The general parts that aren't used will probably the be exception. I wouldn't put it past them to do a good deal of tweaking on the final script and context, for example: a lot of situations can be painfully dumb in abstract, but make perfect sense in execution when new context is added.[/quote][/quote]
I had to work with script before. A lot of it. Never on a professional level, though.
No idea is dumb by itself, really. That's what people don't get. I do hope that no one has to narrate Y: The Last Man to anyone.



[quote]Compared to ME2?

Personally, I always felt it was a shame what Bioware did with the Terminus. Instead of some intimidating force of consequence and rival to the Council, it turned out to be one crime-ridden station only loosely controlled by a pirate queen, three mercenary groups of no real consequence, and exists as the place to be colonized by Citadel species.

Where were the Terminus empires? The warlords and dictators and species of every stripe and ideology? Why was Omega even presented as important to the Terminus, when it's just a small space colony?
[/quote]
Because trade cities work that way. Refer to early ancient colonialism.

They definitely hit the spot with the Bladerunnerish feeling though. But I am still wondering what your post has to do with mine, at all.

Modifié par Phaedon, 27 décembre 2011 - 09:50 .

[DiebytheSword]

Pure Paragon or Renegade playthroughs rarely appeal to me. Instead, I enjoy picking from the veiwpoint of a particular Commander Shepard I am trying to play. I get why the Renegades are annoyed, I get why the Paragons attack Renegades who deflect their rage at the state of the game at other players who made different choices.

Its a sad state of affairs, because both sides have smart people and both sides have good ideas, but netiher side can admit that outside of a PM.

[Dean_the_Young]

Phaedon wrote...
I had to work with script before. A lot of it. Never on a professional level, though.
No idea is dumb by itself, really. That's what people don't get. I do hope that no one has to narrate Y: The Last Man to anyone.

Hm. Not so sure myself. I suppose there are a lot of ideas that have a high chance of being dumb in practice, but can be saved in execution. Likewise ideas that sound good in theory, but come out dumb in execution.

While there are plenty of things that I have high hopes for in ME3, there are others where I am not an optimist.

Compared to ME2?

Personally, I always felt it was a shame what Bioware did with the Terminus. Instead of some intimidating force of consequence and rival to the Council, it turned out to be one crime-ridden station only loosely controlled by a pirate queen, three mercenary groups of no real consequence, and exists as the place to be colonized by Citadel species.

Where were the Terminus empires? The warlords and dictators and species of every stripe and ideology? Why was Omega even presented as important to the Terminus, when it's just a small space colony?

Because trade cities work that way. Refer to early ancient colonialism.

That would have been a start, but there was never any real emphasis on it. Omega wasn't portrayed as some economic miracle of trade and commerce: it was a disease-ridden slum of poverty, with a dirty nightclub. Trade cities of prominence also had other things that made them prominent: governance, naval power, outreach.

If Omega had been, say, industrial-revolution New York, a place where millions migrate in hopes of striking it rich but most just toil away in poverty, that'd be one thing. But there never was any sense of social mobility to Omega, nor industrius commerce or direction. No one wanted to be there, besides Aria and some. And they weren't visibly successful either.

Illium makes a better trade city portrayal than Omega, but it's Asari and halfway in Council space as it is. And Illium took away from prospective Terminus empires. Heck, so did the focus on Human colonies. That could have been readjusted, if it were more along the lines of 'someone is paying slavers to target Humans across the Terminus.'

They definitely hit the spot with the Bladerunnerish feeling though. But I am still wondering what your post has to do with mine, at all.

I'd agree that ME1 had a great world-building, but not that ME2 did. I couldn't tell which you were referring to.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 décembre 2011 - 11:21 .

[Sisterofshane]

Seboist wrote...

You do realize that certain choices like killing the Queen, bombing the heretics and destroying genophage cure fit the bill of a council loyalist than the Paragon alternatives,no? That is, if one's not trying role play a blubbering idealist who wants to be a space jesus and have everyone hold hands and sing kumbaya or a space troll who wants to kill/destroy things just for the lulz.

My original Shepard let the Queen go and kept the genophage data because she wanted to undermine the council races by empowering it's long time enemies. You seem to be under the impression that playing "renegade" or "humancentric/nationalist" is just mindlessly picking every lower right option.  Even my most Renegade Shepard is one third Paragon as the choices per alignment are all over the place.

In regards to the first bolded sentence, these things may appear this way to you, but are not actually how the story plays out.  Bioware created a morality system, and assigned choices to either "Paragon" or "Renegade".  I'm sure every person here can twist every decision to be of the
opposite morality if given the opportunity to provide their own reasons.  But while you can make up your own reasons for your choices, don't THEN become upset when susbequent games don't pander out the way you expected - it was not how the entire story was intended to be written.  I would liken it to someone saying that Juliet killed herself not because of Romeo's death, but because her father was abusive.  Sure, you can say that, but it's clearly not the way Shakespeare had written it.

As for the second bolded sentence, I wasn't refering to the Renegade player, but rather the renegade options.  The bottom right option usually plays Shepard out as human-centric, paranoid jerk (Forever Alone Shepard).  That doesn't necessarily mean that is the way every renegade plays THEIR Shepard.

*snip*
So yeah, ME2 established that TIM wanted to revive Shepard in order for him/her to recruit a broad coaliton against the Reapers.

Yeah, I never know quite how to take those mission debriefings.  My rensheps usually think that TIM is right on the money with his assessments while my Paragon Sheps tend to dismiss everything he says.  Part of me thinks he is trying to butter Shep up with what they "want" to hear, and it would totally fit his character because he always has an ulterior motive.

[Labrev]

jreezy wrote...

I sympathize with this sentiment even though I play a mixture of Paragon and Renegade more often than just Renegade. I hope BioWare can get their act together in other games after Mass Effect 3.

What is there to sympathize with here exactly?

Using an example of something from KOTOR where some NPC, if left alive, is a companion. If killed, said NPC is talked about. So then what's the problem with the rachni-queen decision, exactly? If you let it live, you might get its assistance. If you killed it, you hear about it in a news report in ME2. I fail to see any difference in these cases. 

Not to mention that the news report, iirc, includes a line like "fortunately, no living rachni were produced." I'd say that constitues a pat-on-the-back. And while we're at it, rememer how one companion expressly tells you that you did the right thing in killing it (Ash), unless she went there with Wrex and thus her opinion gets cancelled. To that end, there was not one iota of praise for the paragon path for that decision in ME1.

Literally the only valid concern about being "robbed" of content is the new council. And I get it, it's more enjoyable to get your own content, and they really should have accomodated other choices better rather than creating a vanilla game completely one-sidedly renegade. I do still think it's overblown a bit, but I get it.

The problem with the leaked script is, it's actually expressly doing the opposite in response, and it's rather pathetic that this is such a big deal. Like "oh noez teh Repaers pult rachni out of derr arse!" What, the masters behind the Citadel, Mass Relays, and cloning Protheans as foot-soldiers have found a way to do the same thing to the rachni as they did the Protheans? Inconceiveable! You think one would be happy that their decision was validated by keeping the rachni out of Reaper hands again and yet not miss out on gameplay content as a result of it. But nope.

Sorry, but I'm not buying the "their story" BS here. The differences are tangible, and balanced for very fair reason (not withholding content). Especially not when said mission ends with the opportunity to make the same decision as you made last time, in spite of supposedly being "railroaded" into the same outcome. That's practically the opposite of conformity.

Again, I'm still waiting to see how BW has ever pushed the message of "Paragon = right choice." I've been down this road with people a few times now, and have never gotten a good explanation to this - merely complaints from jaded gameplayers.


By the way jreezy, I actually have played a serious renegade career, and I found it to be no less enjoyable (in fact, it's my new favorite out of five total!) than any other ME career I've done.

[FearTheLiving]

I've noticed some talking about Zaeed's loyalty mission and how letting Vido get away is a failure which isn't the case. Zaeed's last job was to liberate the refinery from the Blue Suns. Which helping out the workers and scaring the Blu Suns off is a success. Going after Vido is just Zaeed's obsession with revenge for what happened to him.

Shepard standing up to Zaeed and showing him that they were there to save the people from oppression and not for revenge shows that Shepard is a man/women of his/her word in which Zaeed respects; he might not like it but he still respects Shepard.

EDIT Posted too soon Nashiktal said exactly what I did lol

Modifié par FearTheLiving, 28 décembre 2011 - 12:46 .

[Labrev]

Seboist wrote...

Here's all the TIM bits about the Geth,Krogan and Quarians from TIM;

TIM worried about a Geth retaliation agianst the Quarians after Haestrom.

Recruited Tali'Zorah for the team.
Though loyal to Shepard, Tali’Zorah's antagonism toward Cerberus
necessitates observation. Also sending recon units to examine geth
activities in case activities on Haestrom provoke action.

TIM concerned that Quaran political instability will harm the collective war effort against the Reapers and that they're needed.

Tali Cleared without New Evidence: Tali’Zorah has been cleared
of all charges, and her trust in Shepard ensures her loyalty on the
mission. Political ramifications of quarian war efforts against geth are
troubling. Likely to need quarian forces against Reapers. Cannot risk
additional instability.
Tali Cleared with New Evidence: While Tali'Zorah has been
cleared of all charges, she seems traumatized by the public revelation
of her father's crimes. She may not be at full efficiency. Political
ramifications of quarian war efforts against geth are troubling. Likely
to need quarian forces against Reapers. Cannot risk additional
instability.
Tali Convicted: While Tali'Zorah has been exiled, she
remains in good spirits. More importantly, she now trusts Shepard and
has no other ties to confuse issues of loyalty. Political ramifications
of quarian war efforts against geth are troubling. Likely to need
quarian forces against Reapers. Cannot risk additional instability.

TIM being supportive of recruiting the Geth's help when recruiting Legion.

From: Illusive Man

Shepard,

I'm pleased that you were able to recover the Reaper IFF, and I've sent
EDI all the necessary protocols to get it integrated successfully into
the Normandy's systems. With luck, this will give us the ability to get
through the Omega-4 relay and take the fight to the Collectors on our
own terms.

I've been notified about the geth and your decision to keep it. If you
believe it can be trusted, then go ahead and activate it. Just make sure
that EDI is adequately protected against any hacking attempts.

It's not necessarily the decision I would have made, Shepard, but this
is your call. You've already cast a wide net in your recruiting efforts,
and if the geth are willing to fight the Collectors, then we can use
them on the team. I trust you to get the job done, whatever it takes.

And again with the rewrite of the Heretics.

Paragon Route: Rewriting of geth heretics will make main geth
faction significantly more powerful. Given perception of Reapers, they
may be possible allies, though long-term cooperation remains unlikely.
Regardless, data recovered from geth station offered valuable insight
into AI social and technological processes. Legion should be committed
to the mission after Shepard's help with the geth heretics.

Finally here we have TIM expressing support of curing the genophage in order to recruit the Krogans as very valuable shock troops against the Reapers(which makes the Sur'Kesh mission in ME3 completely nonsensical).

Data Saved: Troubled by Clan Weyrloc’s progress toward genophage
cure without Cerberus knowledge. Cure data may prove useful. Krogan
dangerous, but if recruited as shock troops against Reapers, extremely
valuable.

So yeah, ME2 established that TIM wanted to revive Shepard in order for him/her to recruit a broad coaliton against the Reapers.

... all this supposed xenophilia from the guy who's right-hand-man is a human-supremacist/anti-alien zealot who caught his attention for killing a krogan and wanting to eradicate all alien species? The guy that considers Shepard, the one who worked with aliens to complete his Spectre mission, an "idealist" - ?

I'm not buying it. I didn't then and don't now.

I don't know if you noticed, but TIM was supportive toward Shepard on EVERYTHING in ME2, save for the base decision in the end if destroyed. That's because TIM was playing you the whole time. His ego-stroking was just part of it (script leaks explicitly confirm this too, so I'm not just seeing things).

Not that it should have been any suprise since, you know, every other character in the game warned you of "Cerberus betrayal." Like it or not, this was totally planned.

If you read between the lines, it's pretty obvious that TIM was probably not in agreement with Shepard on the notable decisions, like keeping the geth ("it's not what *I* would have done, (idealist)" ... also he is MUCH happier if you make the decision to let him study it instead), rewriting the geth ("long term support unlikely"), genophage cure (troubled by progress, krogan dangerous) <-- and the Sur'Kesh mission just goes to show what he really thinks.

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 28 décembre 2011 - 01:06 .