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Renagade vs Paragon - "Whats the Beef?"


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#326
krossbow

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jreezy wrote...

Seboist wrote...

kumquats wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
KotOR had its own Paragon/Renegade system. It was called Lightside and Darkside.


But you do understand that Kotor and ME are different alignment systems, right?


"Different" in theory but in practice? Nope.

I think the difference between the two is that the Darkside alignment seems to be a more viable option compared to Renegade. It seems a lot of people feel that they've been indirectly told the Renegade path is the "wrong" path. I think that feeling is absent in KOTOR.



In all fairness, its hard for any path not be "Viable" when you can mind control people into doing anything you want or agreeing with your choices. Reneshep doesn't have that power.

#327
DPSSOC

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In my view the Paragon vs Renegade arguments stem from two simple factors; validation and tone. Paragon decisions are regularly validated by the game, even if there is no actual impact. I'll keep it to the big ones for ME1 the Rachni and the Council. The messenger on Illium validates the Rachni choice; they're thriving, they're willing to help, and they seem to have peaceful intentions. The Council decision is also validated with the Council agreeing to meet with you and expressing that they do, to an extent, have faith in your judgement.

This is great, it is fantastic that the player's choices are validated, even if actual consequences seem lacking. However it also creates a problem because these invalidate the Renegade choices. While you can play these as "KILL D'EM 4 TEH LULZ!!" the choices seem to focus around risk. Given the damage the Rachni Wars caused letting the Rachni go free is too big of a risk and you terminate them. With the Council the risk of not having enough firepower to take down Sovereign before he overrides Vigil's block and opens the relay is too great so you abandon them to their fate. The Paragon choices turning out well entirely invalidates these choices because it renders the sacrifice unnecessary.

This brings us to the issue of tone; again while the choices we made don't have any real impact on the game the tone they set does have an effect on the player. The tone of the Paraverse is almost entirely positive; The Council races love humanity, the possible return of the Rachni doesn't seem to have upset anyone, and the Alliance doesn't seem any worse for the loss of 8 cruisers. This is in contrast to the Reneverse which is very much negative; The Council races hate humanity, there seems to be a Cold War brewing between the Alliance and the Turians, and for all we're told there's a human run/controlled Council there's nothing that actually suggests the Alliance is any more powerful than they were.

In fact if you look at how all the ME1 Renegade choices are presented in ME2 they all carry this tone; the player is lead to feel that their actions had no upside to them and the sacrifices they made were completely pointless.

Fixes to the tone actually wouldn't have been that hard, since most of it comes from primarily passive interaction with the game world. For the Paragons just throw in a few downers; imply that the Alliance is still recovering from the loss of the cruisers used to save the Council, suggest there's unrest amongst the populace over Alliance kowtowing to the aliens, give us a news report that people are militarizing and hunting in response to the possible return of the Rachni. Keep the positive outcomes of the choices (Good relations with the aliens and Rachni allies), but give the player the impression that they, or the Alliance, have paid for these.

And do the same thing for the Renegade, keep the consequences (dead rachni, anti-human sentiment) but give the player some indication that they got something out of it. A stronger Alliance military, some examples of humanity brow beating the other races, just little things that effect nothing (now or later) but let the player say, "Well at least I got something."

And fixing the tone almost completely solves the validation issue, because while the Paragon players may be considered to have gotten the better deal there was a cost to it which the player can assign as the value of the sacrifice they made. Both players feel as though they've made gains and taken losses as opposed to one player feeling as though they've gained nothing while another player has gained much at no cost. You can't make it perfect without making all choices meaningless, whenever you have two options one of them has to be the better one, but you can make it better.

#328
Mr. Gogeta34

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In fact if you look at how all the ME1 Renegade choices are presented in ME2 they all carry this tone; the player is lead to feel that their actions had no upside to them and the sacrifices they made were completely pointless.

Compared to the Paragon alternative choice... ding ding ding, we have a winner.Image IPB

#329
AlexXIV

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Oh look ...

#330
Cultist

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The end justifies the means.
Some people don't care how many batarians, asari or other aliens will die as long as Reapers are defeated.
Some people don't care about racchni race.
Some people don't care about eco-protestors and angry colonists.
Some people don't care about killing thousands with friendly fire if lives of millions are at the stake.
Some people will abuse their powers to get advantage over Reapers.
Some people will abuse their power because they can.
http://t2.gstatic.co...U27TC-pXk4bdj65

#331
Windninja47

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 This is actually one of the things dragon age does better than mass effect. Especially Dragon Age 2. In that game I sided with the templars and I have no doubt that if there was a good/evil thing in that game I would have earned many an evil point. But I didn't do it because I wanted to be evil- I did it because I honestly thought it was the good and just thing to do. And because of the friendship/rivalry thing being not solely determined by choices made in main quests I could still get Fenris to be full rival and Merrill to be full Friend (and LI).

The problem with the paragon/renegade thing in Mass Effect is that if you want to be able to do certain things (like, say, save Wrex) you really need to stick with one or the other for the vast majority of the game- even if sometimes you have to make the choice you wouldn't want to make. They should have a skill like in DA:O called coercion that you can unlock as you level up. This means that you could make the choices you wanted to make and if you are willing to spend your level-up points or whatever they are called on it you could still do the things you want to.

#332
nitefyre410

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LeVaughnX wrote...

DCarter wrote...

You're just speculating about the rachni choice. Granted your outcomes seem plausible but you can't state them as definitive facts until we actually see them unfold as we play through the game.

Moving on, paragon vs renegade was never meant to equate to good vs bad. You play commander shepard an elite soldier saving the galaxies advanced species from doom at the hands of the reapers. Your a god damn hero regardless of whether you smile or scowl at people.

I agree with you that your actions should have consequences but the common theme with renegade choices in ME1 is that you end up with less content in ME2 (emails or characters).



Lets play the logic game! 

Bioware showed Rachni Reaper Hybrids (Rachni Husks). They've said a lot of Paragon choices have the chance to really screw us over (no I'm not bothering to get proof I'm lazy - get it yourself if you direly need it). Its only LOGICAL to assume that the Rachni surviving would be the reason we fight Rachni Husks / possibly a Rachni Reaper! Why? Because we let the Queen of one loose! We told her ""go - be free - rebuild"" which basically gives the Reapers more ammo!

Renegades killed her - thus giving them less of a foe to fight in the long run! Why? SHE COULDN'T BRING HER PEOPLE TOGETHER AND REBUILD THEM! Durp!

 


This works under the assumption  that the Reapers did not  all ready have those husk  from when they drove the Rachni crazy for the Rachni...  either way... A husk is a husk and most will be dust  when I'm done, I don't give a good damn anyway.   


Honestly Paragon and Renegade are joke of a choice system  because Bioware has boiled Renegade down to sound like a roid raging manic(hyperbole) and Paragon to a not balls having  whipping boy/girl(hyperbole).  When really  it should look more like  this :  Paragon - a sliding scale between  Lawful Good and Neutral Good.   Renegade - a sliding scale between  Chaotic Good and Neutral Good. 

Lets take the Rachni Choice.... now why would killing the Rachni  Queen be a Renegade choice it falls in line with prescedent that  Rachni are threat to galaxy and Council would not mind wiping them out... more of a cold calcuated  Paragon choice. Where the Renegade would be letting the Rachni Queen go because Shepard letting the Rachni Queen go  because he takes her at her word thus  rebellioning against the prescedent that is set as the Rachni being the enemy.

#333
Seboist

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nitefyre410 wrote...

LeVaughnX wrote...

DCarter wrote...

You're just speculating about the rachni choice. Granted your outcomes seem plausible but you can't state them as definitive facts until we actually see them unfold as we play through the game.

Moving on, paragon vs renegade was never meant to equate to good vs bad. You play commander shepard an elite soldier saving the galaxies advanced species from doom at the hands of the reapers. Your a god damn hero regardless of whether you smile or scowl at people.

I agree with you that your actions should have consequences but the common theme with renegade choices in ME1 is that you end up with less content in ME2 (emails or characters).



Lets play the logic game! 

Bioware showed Rachni Reaper Hybrids (Rachni Husks). They've said a lot of Paragon choices have the chance to really screw us over (no I'm not bothering to get proof I'm lazy - get it yourself if you direly need it). Its only LOGICAL to assume that the Rachni surviving would be the reason we fight Rachni Husks / possibly a Rachni Reaper! Why? Because we let the Queen of one loose! We told her ""go - be free - rebuild"" which basically gives the Reapers more ammo!

Renegades killed her - thus giving them less of a foe to fight in the long run! Why? SHE COULDN'T BRING HER PEOPLE TOGETHER AND REBUILD THEM! Durp!

 


This works under the assumption  that the Reapers did not  all ready have those husk  from when they drove the Rachni crazy for the Rachni...  either way... A husk is a husk and most will be dust  when I'm done, I don't give a good damn anyway.   


Honestly Paragon and Renegade are joke of a choice system  because Bioware has boiled Renegade down to sound like a roid raging manic(hyperbole) and Paragon to a not balls having  whipping boy/girl(hyperbole).  When really  it should look more like  this :  Paragon - a sliding scale between  Lawful Good and Neutral Good.   Renegade - a sliding scale between  Chaotic Good and Neutral Good. 

Lets take the Rachni Choice.... now why would killing the Rachni  Queen be a Renegade choice it falls in line with prescedent that  Rachni are threat to galaxy and Council would not mind wiping them out... more of a cold calcuated  Paragon choice. Where the Renegade would be letting the Rachni Queen go because Shepard letting the Rachni Queen go  because he takes her at her word thus  rebellioning against the prescedent that is set as the Rachni being the enemy.


Yeah, my original Shepard let the Queen go becuase they're an enemy of the council and wanted to undermine them.  A lot of these so-called "renegade" actions are awfuly pro-establishment like killing the queen,boming the heretics and destroying the genophage data while Paragon seems intent on creating as much chaos as possible.

Speaking of lawful good and loyalty to the council, what's the logic behind Paragon Shepard supporting the Krogan? Doesn't he know he's undermining his beloved council by wanting to cure them? And for what, an ultra-violent race of reptiles that love war,killing and mutiliation that are completely at odds with his moral compass and detest the establishment he serves? The LOTSB vids show Parashep's Urdnot buddies burning prisoners alive and feeding them to Varren but I guess that's what he wants there to be more of in the galaxy.

Modifié par Seboist, 02 janvier 2012 - 11:52 .


#334
nitefyre410

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Seboist wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

LeVaughnX wrote...

DCarter wrote...

You're just speculating about the rachni choice. Granted your outcomes seem plausible but you can't state them as definitive facts until we actually see them unfold as we play through the game.

Moving on, paragon vs renegade was never meant to equate to good vs bad. You play commander shepard an elite soldier saving the galaxies advanced species from doom at the hands of the reapers. Your a god damn hero regardless of whether you smile or scowl at people.

I agree with you that your actions should have consequences but the common theme with renegade choices in ME1 is that you end up with less content in ME2 (emails or characters).



Lets play the logic game! 

Bioware showed Rachni Reaper Hybrids (Rachni Husks). They've said a lot of Paragon choices have the chance to really screw us over (no I'm not bothering to get proof I'm lazy - get it yourself if you direly need it). Its only LOGICAL to assume that the Rachni surviving would be the reason we fight Rachni Husks / possibly a Rachni Reaper! Why? Because we let the Queen of one loose! We told her ""go - be free - rebuild"" which basically gives the Reapers more ammo!

Renegades killed her - thus giving them less of a foe to fight in the long run! Why? SHE COULDN'T BRING HER PEOPLE TOGETHER AND REBUILD THEM! Durp!

 


This works under the assumption  that the Reapers did not  all ready have those husk  from when they drove the Rachni crazy for the Rachni...  either way... A husk is a husk and most will be dust  when I'm done, I don't give a good damn anyway.   


Honestly Paragon and Renegade are joke of a choice system  because Bioware has boiled Renegade down to sound like a roid raging manic(hyperbole) and Paragon to a not balls having  whipping boy/girl(hyperbole).  When really  it should look more like  this :  Paragon - a sliding scale between  Lawful Good and Neutral Good.   Renegade - a sliding scale between  Chaotic Good and Neutral Good. 

Lets take the Rachni Choice.... now why would killing the Rachni  Queen be a Renegade choice it falls in line with prescedent that  Rachni are threat to galaxy and Council would not mind wiping them out... more of a cold calcuated  Paragon choice. Where the Renegade would be letting the Rachni Queen go because Shepard letting the Rachni Queen go  because he takes her at her word thus  rebellioning against the prescedent that is set as the Rachni being the enemy.


Yeah, my original Shepard let the Queen go becuase they're an enemy of the council and wanted to undermine them.  A lot of these so-called "renegade" actions are awfuly pro-establishment like killing the queen,boming the heretics and destroying the genophage data while Paragon seems intent on creating as much chaos as possible.

Speaking of lawful good and loyalty to the council, what's the logic behind Paragon Shepard supporting the Krogan? Doesn't he know he's undermining his beloved council by wanting to cure them? And for what, an ultra-violent race of reptiles that love war,killing and mutiliation that are completely at odds with his moral compass and detest the establishment he serves? The LOTSB vids show Parashep's Urdnot buddies burning prisoners alive and feeding them to Varren but I guess that's what he wants there to be more of in the galaxy.

 


Thus why I don't like the whole system at all... I just go with blue most of the time because its my favoraite color and not because  Bioware  basis of morality.  As far as Urdnot burning of prisioners... the Council  is not any better  with the whole... "Oh we're the beacon of hope for the Galaxy ...except of you guys... yeah you the Quarians... lost you planet... Oh well not my problem wander space for the next  300 plus years even through we have nice space station that can offer some refuge for you. While we look at the Geth Delemia  how to deal with the problem that  was an unintended fallout of your creation."  Because  god lord forbid the Council have re-examine some of the laws.. .cause according them things don't change. 

#335
Kaiser Arian XVII

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@Windninja47 , since when the Templars are evil? Are they worse than NWN and Elder Scrolls necromancers?!

@Cultist, Rachni is now history!
We don't kill people to satisfy your end-means line. If there is no other way and lots of important things are in danger, we might choose the 'let the crowd die' option because they are not more important than Elites, Huge Structures and Fleets in the war. And when the war is lost, everything is lost.

#336
Guest_simfamUP_*

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Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

@Windninja47 , since when the Templars are evil? Are they worse than NWN and Elder Scrolls necromancers?!

@Cultist, Rachni is now history!
We don't kill people to satisfy your end-means line. If there is no other way and lots of important things are in danger, we might choose the 'let the crowd die' option because they are not more important than Elites, Huge Structures and Fleets in the war. And when the war is lost, everything is lost.


Necromancers in the Elder Scrolls aren't evil. Infact there are two seperate groups. The Black Worm is evil. These are the Necromancers led by Mannimarco King of Worms (who we killed in Oblivion) and worship Mannimarco GOD of Worms (the guy in Daggerfall.) Yeah, they have a bad history with the Mages guild. The way Oblivion presented Necromancy was really crappy.

But in general Necromancers are a lot like Mages in the Circle, opressed because a bunch of bad apples. They left the Guild after our useless Arch-Mage with his grand Black Soul Gem theory banned it.

Necromancy is anatomy with magic in the Elder Scrolls, I don't think it should be compared to the DnD view on it, because it is in no way evil unless the intentions of the usage is.

#337
Guest_TheDaniellasaur_*

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I prefer Paragons but i find it more fun to play as a Renegade.

#338
Dean_the_Young

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DPSSOC wrote...

In my view the Paragon vs Renegade arguments stem from two simple factors; validation and tone. Paragon decisions are regularly validated by the game, even if there is no actual impact. I'll keep it to the big ones for ME1 the Rachni and the Council. The messenger on Illium validates the Rachni choice; they're thriving, they're willing to help, and they seem to have peaceful intentions. The Council decision is also validated with the Council agreeing to meet with you and expressing that they do, to an extent, have faith in your judgement.

This is great, it is fantastic that the player's choices are validated, even if actual consequences seem lacking. However it also creates a problem because these invalidate the Renegade choices. While you can play these as "KILL D'EM 4 TEH LULZ!!" the choices seem to focus around risk. Given the damage the Rachni Wars caused letting the Rachni go free is too big of a risk and you terminate them. With the Council the risk of not having enough firepower to take down Sovereign before he overrides Vigil's block and opens the relay is too great so you abandon them to their fate. The Paragon choices turning out well entirely invalidates these choices because it renders the sacrifice unnecessary.

This brings us to the issue of tone; again while the choices we made don't have any real impact on the game the tone they set does have an effect on the player. The tone of the Paraverse is almost entirely positive; The Council races love humanity, the possible return of the Rachni doesn't seem to have upset anyone, and the Alliance doesn't seem any worse for the loss of 8 cruisers. This is in contrast to the Reneverse which is very much negative; The Council races hate humanity, there seems to be a Cold War brewing between the Alliance and the Turians, and for all we're told there's a human run/controlled Council there's nothing that actually suggests the Alliance is any more powerful than they were.

In fact if you look at how all the ME1 Renegade choices are presented in ME2 they all carry this tone; the player is lead to feel that their actions had no upside to them and the sacrifices they made were completely pointless.

Fixes to the tone actually wouldn't have been that hard, since most of it comes from primarily passive interaction with the game world. For the Paragons just throw in a few downers; imply that the Alliance is still recovering from the loss of the cruisers used to save the Council, suggest there's unrest amongst the populace over Alliance kowtowing to the aliens, give us a news report that people are militarizing and hunting in response to the possible return of the Rachni. Keep the positive outcomes of the choices (Good relations with the aliens and Rachni allies), but give the player the impression that they, or the Alliance, have paid for these.

And do the same thing for the Renegade, keep the consequences (dead rachni, anti-human sentiment) but give the player some indication that they got something out of it. A stronger Alliance military, some examples of humanity brow beating the other races, just little things that effect nothing (now or later) but let the player say, "Well at least I got something."

And fixing the tone almost completely solves the validation issue, because while the Paragon players may be considered to have gotten the better deal there was a cost to it which the player can assign as the value of the sacrifice they made. Both players feel as though they've made gains and taken losses as opposed to one player feeling as though they've gained nothing while another player has gained much at no cost. You can't make it perfect without making all choices meaningless, whenever you have two options one of them has to be the better one, but you can make it better.


This one understands.