337 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Bleachrude wrote...

But that's what I mean...

You're stating that Harrowmount is the paragon choice BECAUSE he follows the rules/traditions of a society but what if you don't agree with that society's rules because they are unjust?

(seriously, talk to Harrowmount about the casteless and he quite clearly thinks they deserve all the nastiness of what happens to them JUST because of who their same sex parent was)

As an aside, one runthrough I played an upstanding city elf and chose Bhelen because he saw beyond the caste system and Harrowmount would have seen nothing wrong in what Vaughn did to me...

Hm ... I never got to talk with Harrowmont about Vaughn so I didn't know that. Still doesn't change that probably most dwarves see him as an example. If the most dwarves were opposing the cast system, then it probably had been abolished long ago. The dwarves hardly can afford a civil war fighting the majority of their own citizen. Personally I thought the casteless and surface dwarves are a minority.

[naledgeborn]

What's Beef?

Beef is when you need two gats to go to sleep.
Beef is when your moms ain't safe up in the streets.
Beef is when I see you, guaranteed to be an ICU.

/Christopher Wallace

[Drone223]

http://t1.gstatic.co...xz9xMKWG0WtF_1A

Welcome to BSN where people like to continue beating the dead horse even when there is nothing left

Modifié par Drone223, 25 décembre 2011 - 08:10 .

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Really? I bet before they found the egg they were 100% sure the Rachni were all but wiped out.

They were 100% wiped out unless you count a single surviving egg.

No cities, no planets, nothing. Just one ship drifting through space with an egg on it.

I'm sure we were 100% certain the galaxy wasn't surrounded by gingerbread until we went to the edge and found a galaxy sized wall of gingerbread.

They were beaten. A logical strategy after you get beaten (and surrender is no option) is to hide. Like the Protheans for example successfully did. I'd say chances of wiping the Rachni out completely are even lower than some of them escape and hide somewhere. It doesn't matter because we need not assume that Shepard at that point is a Rachni expert. So whether other Rachni out there actually exist is less important than the fact that Shepard could think so. You're always one of the first who accuses people of metagaming. So how do you know all these things? Is your Shepard perchance a jack of all trades?

Modifié par AlexXIV, 25 décembre 2011 - 08:11 .

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

They were beaten. A logical strategy after you get beaten (and surrender is no option) is to hide.

Except the queen apparently was left out there before the war even started...

Though I would also remind you that a logical strategy when you are beaten is to sue for peace.

Even if there is another egg somewhere out there in this extremely vast galaxy what are the chances of finding one?

Why are you even bringing this up, is it an attempt to justify Bioware once again rendering a significant choice we made meaningless?

I am pretty sure Bioware does not need me to justify their decisions. Or the meanings of our decisions in their game. I am just having a chat here. Nothing of importance. Also I fear if you really think it was a significant choice then you will be disappointed. I can't imagine that the Rachni will decide the war. Actually I think the most imporant choices to make will be in ME3, not ME1/2.

[AlexXIV]

Arcian wrote...

Drone223 wrote...

Welcome to BSN where people like to continue beating the dead horse even when there is nothing left

"NOT EVEN MOLECULES WILL REMAIN!"

BSN, we beat horses back to life.

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

AlexXIV wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Drone223 wrote...

Welcome to BSN where people like to continue beating the dead horse even when there is nothing left

"NOT EVEN MOLECULES WILL REMAIN!"

BSN, we beat horses back to life.

Project Horse Lazarus!

[Mr. Gogeta34]

@OP
The arguement has always been about Paragon Favoritism over ANY other choice... including Renegade ones.  One type of choice... one morality path... ALWAYS provides the most content, most story continuity, most positive praise, most lives saved, and puts the most positive spin on its outcomes than any other option available.

When it's exclusive to that choice line... it's Favoritism... and that's a problem to smart gamers who like a real choice (where the player wants to try and get the best outcome by having to think about the actual situation at hand).  Currently, Paragon gets the best outcome regardless of what the problem or situation is... I don't even have to know what the choices are anymore.  That's where the beef is.  Go get you some.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 25 décembre 2011 - 08:34 .

[AlexXIV]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

@OP
The arguement has always been about Paragon Favoritism over ANY other choice... including Renegade ones.  One type of choice... one morality path... ALWAYS provides the most content, most story continuity, most positive praise, most lives saved, and puts the most positive spin on its outcomes than any other option available.

When it's exclusive to that choice line... it's Favoritism... and that's a problem to smart gamers who like a real choice (where the player wants to try and get the best outcome by having to think about the actual situation at hand).  Currently, Paragon gets the best outcome regardless of what the problem or situation is... I don't even have to know what the choices are anymore.  That's where the beef is.  Go get you some.

Honestly, how was it favoritism so far?

Renegades get renegade results, Paragons get paragon results. If you can't deal with it that people treat you like a jerk, don't go around treating people like a jerk. Some renegade seem to expect that everyone loves them no matter how many teeth they kick in. If you are really a renegade, go kick some ass and deal with it that not everyone loves you. It wouldn't be any beef if renegades didn't want paragon results for renegade choices.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

AlexXIV wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

@OP
The arguement has always been about Paragon Favoritism over ANY other choice... including Renegade ones.  One type of choice... one morality path... ALWAYS provides the most content, most story continuity, most positive praise, most lives saved, and puts the most positive spin on its outcomes than any other option available.

When it's exclusive to that choice line... it's Favoritism... and that's a problem to smart gamers who like a real choice (where the player wants to try and get the best outcome by having to think about the actual situation at hand).  Currently, Paragon gets the best outcome regardless of what the problem or situation is... I don't even have to know what the choices are anymore.  That's where the beef is.  Go get you some.

Honestly, how was it favoritism so far?

Renegades get renegade results, Paragons get paragon results. If you can't deal with it that people treat you like a jerk, don't go around treating people like a jerk. Some renegade seem to expect that everyone loves them no matter how many teeth they kick in. If you are really a renegade, go kick some ass and deal with it that not everyone loves you. It wouldn't be any beef if renegades didn't want paragon results for renegade choices.

Sounds like you haven't been reading the arguements at all.  For an easy example, I said Paragon choices get favored "over ANY other choice... including Renegade ones."  As wrong as your assessment of the Renegade is (not every decision is a jerk decision... just like not every Paragon decision is a naive decision), Neutral decisions don't fare any better... actually they fare worse (and are lumped with the Renegade outcome in ME1/2).

Putting the entire galaxy above a few replaceable top brass is hardly a "jerk" move.  If the entire galaxy was destroyed... the top brass you would try to save would be dead too.  (This is in reference to the Neutral Council decision in ME1).

If you look at the Renegade result, ME1 ended in a very Renegade way... but was essentially castrated in ME2.  Where was the all-human Council?  What happened to the "dark alliance" made at the end of the first game?  Heck, where was the increased human dominance presence?  Where was the increased human dominance percs?  It's a break in story continuity and cut content for not seeing the Council (the only group that Shepard answers to... doesn't make sense).

For Neutrals, you pick the chairman who heads the Council, and not even the chairman can get them in front of Skype to hear what happened to the "hero of the Citadel, thought dead for years, and now back with rumors of Cerberus circulating around his name."

Again, the issue is Favoritism.  Paragon doesn't have those issues at all, the story transition is the smoothest there compared to all the other choices.

That's also just the tip of the Favoritism iceburg.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 25 décembre 2011 - 08:56 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Here's 2 more: 
Zaeed loyalty Mission:
Renegade:  Sacrifice people to gain his loyalty (no, Shepard never cared about Vito and was only going to appease Zaeed).  Innocent people died (Jerk Move)... but Zaeed becomes loyal.

Paragon:  Don't sacrifice people to gain his loyalty (this Shepard also could care less about Vito).  Vito gets away.... Zaeed's mission is a failure... but wait!  No... Favoritism steps in and makes him loyal anyway (making the earlier "sacrifice" completely unnecessary).

Bring Down the Sky:
Renegade:  Kill the terrorist (who also kills his hostages).  The terrorist commits no more crimes and is not heard of again.

Paragon:  Let the terrorist go (save the hostages).  The terrorist commits no more crimes and is not heard of again (making the earlier "sacrifice" completely unnecessary).  More Favoritism.

Plenty more where that came from... the Paragon Favoritism is strong with this game.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 25 décembre 2011 - 09:09 .

[mybudgee]

I prefer kindergarten terms. All paragon choices are NICE. All renegade choices are mean

[Bleachrude]

Actually..there was never an all-human council...Looking at the flags, there's no "all-human council" There's human-led council and then the original council + human...

And again, I'll point out that the renegade path doesnt make sense either since at the time, why would you think sacrificing the council would result in a human-led council and not the council races just appointing another person in that slot?

Unless you metagame, there's no reason to believe that sacrificing the council should change the council itself (it would be akin to the UN permanent members of the security council being wiped out and then Brazil simply moving in and deciding it would be a permanent member and setting the rules)

[Mr. Gogeta34]

If anyone wants more examples, let me know = )

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Bleachrude wrote...

Actually..there was never an all-human council...Looking at the flags, there's no "all-human council" There's human-led council and then the original council + human...

And again, I'll point out that the renegade path doesnt make sense either since at the time, why would you think sacrificing the council would result in a human-led council and not the council races just appointing another person in that slot?

Unless you metagame, there's no reason to believe that sacrificing the council should change the council itself (it would be akin to the UN permanent members of the security council being wiped out and then Brazil simply moving in and deciding it would be a permanent member and setting the rules)

Sacrificing the Council was simply sacrificing the Council.  That's as far as it went...

Udina is the one that pushed for human dominance (arguable more than Shepard).  So it did make sense.

Like I said, they gimped the Renegade outcome in ME2.  ME1 ended with an all-human Council.  ME2... did "something..." with it.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 25 décembre 2011 - 09:26 .

[AVPen]

Nice try Gogeta, but I can find a few flaws with the examples you listed:

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Zaeed loyalty Mission:
Renegade:  Sacrifice people to gain his loyalty (no, Shepard never cared about Vito and was only going to appease Zaeed).  Innocent people died (Jerk Move)... but Zaeed becomes loyal.

Paragon:  Don't sacrifice people to gain his loyalty (this Shepard also could care less about Vito).  Vito gets away.... Zaeed's mission is a failure... but wait!  No... Favoritism steps in and makes him loyal anyway (making the earlier "sacrifice" completely unnecessary).

The Paragon Charm option only works if you have a significant number of Paragon points (although this can be countered if you're using an imported Shepard and/or take Zaeed's LM early in the game), i.e. taking the "Save the Factory Workers" path does not automatically guarantee that you'll be able to earn Zaeed's loyalty at the end.

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Bring Down the Sky:
Renegade:  Kill the terrorist (who also kills his hostages).  The terrorist commits no more crimes and is not heard of again.

Paragon:  Let the terrorist go (save the hostages).  The terrorist commits no more crimes and is not heard of again (making the earlier "sacrifice" completely unnecessary).  More Favoritism.

 
Again utterly wrong - Balak, the terrorist leader, remains at large and uncaught by the Alliance in ME2 and is most likely continuing to commit crimes against the Alliance/human interests (we just never hear about them).

Modifié par AVPen, 25 décembre 2011 - 09:26 .

[Bleachrude]

Yes, I think you might want to show more examples since not one of your examples actually shows favoritism..it shows that no action actually has consequence since you dont gain an advantage, but neither do you gain a disadvantage in those situations....

You point out that you see no perks for human dominance anywhere, but at the same time, you don't net any disadvantages anywhere either...

[Bleachrude]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Actually..there was never an all-human council...Looking at the flags, there's no "all-human council" There's human-led council and then the original council + human...

And again, I'll point out that the renegade path doesnt make sense either since at the time, why would you think sacrificing the council would result in a human-led council and not the council races just appointing another person in that slot?

Unless you metagame, there's no reason to believe that sacrificing the council should change the council itself (it would be akin to the UN permanent members of the security council being wiped out and then Brazil simply moving in and deciding it would be a permanent member and setting the rules)

Sacrificing the Council was simply sacrificing the Council.  That's as far as it went...

Udina is the one that pushed for human dominance (arguable more than Shepard).  So it did make sense.

Like I said, they gimped the Renegade outcome in ME2.  ME1 ended with an all-human Council.  ME2... did "something..." with it.

So if Udina pushes for it, it makes sense?

How and why does it make sense? Most of the inhabitants of the citadel are going to be non0humans and again, the council races should have no problems assigning new members...

At best, the council would exist no more and humanity would be in a cold war with the former council races...

[Mr. Gogeta34]

AVPen wrote...
The Paragon Charm option only works if you have a significant number of Paragon points (although this can be countered if you're using an imported Shepard and/or take Zaeed's LM early in the game), i.e. taking the "Save the Factory Workers" path does not automatically guarantee that you'll be able to earn Zaeed's loyalty at the end.

What does the "amount" of Paragon points have to do with the fact that it was a Paragon choice?  Sorry, that's not a fault of my arguement.  And at the end of the day, you can get his loyalty whether you successfully complete the mission or not.  That's the point.

No fault to speak of.

Again utterly wrong - Balak, the terrorist leader, remains at large and uncaught by the Alliance in ME2 and is most likely continuing to commit crimes against the Alliance/human interests (we just never hear about them).

Again?  No.  And utterly wrong?  Hardly.  He remains at large, uncaught... and as of ME2... harmless.  There's no news of any terrorist attacks linked to Balak, no sign that Balak's even positioning to make an attack, no message from him either.  He's just "still at large..." but that's common sense when you let a criminal go... of course they'd still be at large.

The big issue is that he hasn't done anything.  Simple fact.... and no fault to speak of.

I appreciate your effort though.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 25 décembre 2011 - 09:33 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Bleachrude wrote...
So if Udina pushes for it, it makes sense?

How and why does it make sense? Most of the inhabitants of the citadel are going to be non0humans and again, the council races should have no problems assigning new members...

At best, the council would exist no more and humanity would be in a cold war with the former council races...

That's not how ME1 ended for Renegades.  It ended with an all-human Council... ME2 gimped this ending without a single explaination.  Simple fact.

Paragons kept their ending and got a natural continuation.  Renegades/Neutral got circumstances that didn't make sense compared to how things left off.  Continuity is not as smooth...

Hopefully you're starting to see that.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 25 décembre 2011 - 09:36 .

[Cyberstrike nTo]

Bleachrude wrote...

 Here's a question I always wondered...(and personally why I think the paragon/renegade system falls down)

What is the renegade/paragon choice between Harrowmount and Bhelen from Dragon Age: Origins?

Actually I think that Bhelen is an ultra left-wing moon bat and Harrowmont is an ultra right-wing wing nut.