337 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Arcian wrote...

I thought the privilege of getting funny oneliners and being a douche with no consequences would outweigh the whole "no one loves me for being the hero who saved the day"-deal. Mostly because ReneShep is a hero in name only.

But what do you know, f***ing darkside kiddies, f***ing darkside kiddies everywhere.

Your implied solution of "just always pick the Paragon choice" if you want the best outcome because all other choices are comparatively irrelevant is exactly the problem.

Being the "Saint" and the "Sinner" is its own reward... has nothing to do with the actual choices.

I'd prefer to actually have choices... ones where I don't know which choice the best outcome will stem from... thank you though.

And guess what... I'm not a "darkside kiddie" but Paragon favoritism has nothing to do with that.

[GodWood]

Arcian wrote...
I prefer psychological terms. All paragon choices are sane. All renegade choices are insane.

Continually risking the entire galaxy and sacrificing its safety and well being for the sake of satisfying ones own kindergarten morality.

Yup, paragon choices sure are sane.

[Seboist]

jreezy wrote...

So…Death to Paragon favoritism? I can dig it.

I can too.

[GodWood]

¡Viva la Revolución!

[mauro2222]

GodWood wrote...

Arcian wrote...
I prefer psychological terms. All paragon choices are sane. All renegade choices are insane.

Continually risking the entire galaxy and sacrificing its safety and well being for the sake of satisfying ones own kindergarten morality.

Yup, paragon choices sure are sane.

This is the best anti-paragon remark? It's getting old. Paragon being selfish does not apply.

[GodWood]

mauro2222 wrote...
This is the best anti-paragon remark? It's getting old.

Of course not. I imagine Seboist has said something much better. 

Paragon being selfish does not apply.

Sure it does.

[GodWood]

Arcian wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Your implied solution of "just always pick the Paragon choice" if you want the best outcome because all other choices are comparatively irrelevant is exactly the problem.

How you choose to interpret my words is your business, but I have implied nothing of the sort.

The concept of a best outcome is subjective: for a xeno-loving loveydovey peace warrior like myself, the "all humans and aliens win together and sing kumbayah"-ending is the best oucome. But for an alien-hating cigar-chewing i-don't-take-crap-from-nobody badass, the same ending is obviously very bad.

Your attitude so far suggests you suffer from what I just decided to name "paragon envy". Basically, you want the "good ending" (good as in morally good, not qualitative good) without having to play like a loveydovey kumbayah singer. A significant portion of the renegade fanbase on the BSN suffers from P. envy. Sadly.

In other words, renegades suffering from P. envy isn't satisfied with the gritty bitter renegade cake - they want the sweet paragon cake, but withou having to stop being a renegade. When BioWare indirectly says "If the renegade cake isn't to your liking, you shouldn't have picked it", the P. envy renegades throws a hissy fit and makes threads about how stupid BioWare is for giving the sweet cake to the paragons, and that they should really be switched out because paragons are stupid anyway.

But then there's the problem of renegades who doesn't suffer from P. envy and who actually likes the gritty bitter renegade cake because they're not keen on too much sweetness like in the paragon cake. But you insist - the cakes should be switched around, because paragons are stupid and being catered to.

So BioWare meets you halfway and says "Add some sugar to your renegade cake to sweeten it. Obviously doing that will deprive you of the full experience of either cake, but perhaps that will be more to your liking? We have a lot of paragons who adds salt to their paragon cakes to make them less sweet since the original cake is a bit too sweet for their liking."

But you remain adamant. "Switch out the cakes, or you're making the renegade cake irrelevant."

At this point BioWare are getting quite annoyed. "We're not doing that. A lot of people like the renegade cake just the way it is. We're not going to disappoint them AND the paragon fans by switching the cakes JUST to cater to you."

"Why not?" you ask. "You're already catering to the paragons."

"No", they patiently reply. "The majority of renegade fans are perfectly content with the taste of the renegade cake as it is."

"They are stupid loyalists", you say. "I'm your only good customer. If you want to make good cakes, you should listen to me."

"Sten, will you do us the honor?"

Sten nods their way, then turns to you. "No," he says.

"You guys are stupid. I'm never buying cakes from you ever again. In fact, I'm cancelling my order."

Three months later, you come back and say, "Oh man the renegade cake tasted sooo bad, BioWare are catering to paragons soooo much, oh my god."

At which point I ask, "Aren't you that guy who said you weren't buying cakes from BioWare ever again?"

To which I get the eloquent response that I am being a spoiled and stupid paragon who is constantly being pandered to, even though I occasionally try out the renegade cake and find it tasty even though sweetness is more to my liking.

Yes, it's a strawman argument. Does it really look like I give a f**k? It accurately describes the BSN, and that's all that matters.

Gogeta's paragon.

Modifié par GodWood, 26 décembre 2011 - 04:11 .

[Swampthing500]

My personal opinion is that Renegade vs Paragon was never a case of wrong choice vs right choice, but a philosophical/moral approach that resulted in different, but never negative, outcomes.

Paragon/Renegae was always about solving situations in different ways.

[Another_Golden_Dragon]

Sigh.

Paragon is Not Paladin. Paragon/Renegade, to use D&D terms, would be more Lawful (Paragon)/ Chaotic (Renegade) than anything else, tho even that doesn't do justice to it. Paragons try to work within the system to get the most favourable results, while Renegades more try to burn thru the system.

Lets look at this: the Quarian Homeworld, ME 3 time.

Is Tali'Zorah alive? Is Legion still Operational (Geth equivalent of still living)?

If Legion is dead (whatever the means (not activated/sold to Cerberus, Died during SM, whatever)) then all you can do is Destroy the Geth. Legion would not be around for the alternative, since Legion is not likely to have a replacement if destroyed. However, you are CERTAIN to have the Migrant Fleet's assistance, since they have a place to send the non-combatants for safety, and the Fleet itself will go wherever needed. NOTE: This can be followed by Paragons, since you are not forced to activate Legion, as well as the fact that Legion can die in the Suicide Mission.

If Tali'Zorah is dead: She is (most likely) replaced by another Admiral. This Admiral will NOT have had the benefit of "cooperating temporarily" with Legion (if alive). IF Legion is dead, the above happens. If Legion Lives, then you are faced with a chioce: Either the Migrant Fleet or the Geth "Collective". The other will not assist beyond the cluster (or else is destroyed), unless you can REALLY pull out the charms. Even then it's not likely.

If both Tali'Zorah and Legion survive: with both having "cooperated temporarily" thru the Suicide Mission, they have a slight bit of trust (note: Tali would still put a bullet into Legion's CPU if the safety of the Migrant Fleet were comprimised), therefore creating a peace between the two factions gives the best possible result: the Migrant Fleet and the Geth "Collective" assisting against the Reapers. Paragon ending, but you REALLY worked for this.

I'm not saying that Bioware will do this (or anything like this), but for working harder, shouldn't you get greater rewards?

Modifié par Another_Golden_Dragon, 26 décembre 2011 - 04:32 .

[GodWood]

Swampthing500 wrote...
My personal opinion is that Renegade vs Paragon was never a case of wrong choice vs right choice, but a philosophical/moral approach that resulted in different, but never negative, outcomes.

Paragon/Renegae was always about solving situations in different ways.

Unfortunately after reading the ME3 spoilers it's clear that's not the stance Bioware has on the issue.

Turns out Paragon is always the better choice and anything else is inferior. I myself would have preffered if they had some renegade choices turn out better and some paragon choices turn out better but apparently that's crazy talk around these parts.

Arcian wrote...
Thankfully, people with your twisted sense of morality are about as rare as helium3 on this planet.

So continually risking the entire galaxy and sacrificing its safety and well being for the sake of satisfying ones own selfish ideals is the better morality?

That's sick man. You should be locked up.

[GodWood]

Another_Golden_Dragon wrote...
I'm not saying that Bioware will do this (or anything like this), but for working harder, shouldn't you get greater rewards?

The paragon choice rarely requires the player to work harder. It's simply a matter of do you pick P and win or do pick R and get less content and worse outcomes.

Anyways in the sitution you just put forth that's not even the paragon 'working harder' as keeping everyone alive on the SM was not a paragon nor renegade action. And the final ending of the scenario that you dubbed 'the paragon ending' shouldn't have the 'best consequences' if Bioware wants to even try to maintain some semblance of real-world-moral greyness'. Instead I'd have it as they work together against the Reaper threat (a plus) but down the line the species resentment of one another rears its ugly head, hostilities begin and war breaks out between the two.

That's what makes a believable setting.

[Another_Golden_Dragon]

GodWood wrote...
Turns out Paragon is always the better choice and anything else is inferior. I myself would have preffered if they had some renegade choices turn out better and some paragon choices turn out better but apparently that's crazy talk around these parts.

I agree, but my post above shows a reason why this is so.  Paragons go the extra mile, and so are rewarded.

Renegades take the quick and easy path, and so miss out (do I need to say "Fall to the Dark SIde"?  No...  Good).

[Labrev]

GodWood wrote...

Unfortunately after reading the ME3 spoilers it's clear that's not the stance Bioware has on the issue.

Great, another BSN forumite who can't read.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

GodWood wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Your implied solution of "just always pick the Paragon choice" if you want the best outcome because all other choices are comparatively irrelevant is exactly the problem.

How you choose to interpret my words is your business, but I have implied nothing of the sort.

The concept of a best outcome is subjective: for a xeno-loving loveydovey peace warrior like myself, the "all humans and aliens win together and sing kumbayah"-ending is the best oucome. But for an alien-hating cigar-chewing i-don't-take-crap-from-nobody badass, the same ending is obviously very bad.

Your attitude so far suggests you suffer from what I just decided to name "paragon envy". Basically, you want the "good ending" (good as in morally good, not qualitative good) without having to play like a loveydovey kumbayah singer. A significant portion of the renegade fanbase on the BSN suffers from P. envy. Sadly.

In other words, renegades suffering from P. envy isn't satisfied with the gritty bitter renegade cake - they want the sweet paragon cake, but withou having to stop being a renegade. When BioWare indirectly says "If the renegade cake isn't to your liking, you shouldn't have picked it", the P. envy renegades throws a hissy fit and makes threads about how stupid BioWare is for giving the sweet cake to the paragons, and that they should really be switched out because paragons are stupid anyway.

But then there's the problem of renegades who doesn't suffer from P. envy and who actually likes the gritty bitter renegade cake because they're not keen on too much sweetness like in the paragon cake. But you insist - the cakes should be switched around, because paragons are stupid and being catered to.

So BioWare meets you halfway and says "Add some sugar to your renegade cake to sweeten it. Obviously doing that will deprive you of the full experience of either cake, but perhaps that will be more to your liking? We have a lot of paragons who adds salt to their paragon cakes to make them less sweet since the original cake is a bit too sweet for their liking."

But you remain adamant. "Switch out the cakes, or you're making the renegade cake irrelevant."

At this point BioWare are getting quite annoyed. "We're not doing that. A lot of people like the renegade cake just the way it is. We're not going to disappoint them AND the paragon fans by switching the cakes JUST to cater to you."

"Why not?" you ask. "You're already catering to the paragons."

"No", they patiently reply. "The majority of renegade fans are perfectly content with the taste of the renegade cake as it is."

"They are stupid loyalists", you say. "I'm your only good customer. If you want to make good cakes, you should listen to me."

"Sten, will you do us the honor?"

Sten nods their way, then turns to you. "No," he says.

"You guys are stupid. I'm never buying cakes from you ever again. In fact, I'm cancelling my order."

Three months later, you come back and say, "Oh man the renegade cake tasted sooo bad, BioWare are catering to paragons soooo much, oh my god."

At which point I ask, "Aren't you that guy who said you weren't buying cakes from BioWare ever again?"

To which I get the eloquent response that I am being a spoiled and stupid paragon who is constantly being pandered to, even though I occasionally try out the renegade cake and find it tasty even though sweetness is more to my liking.

Yes, it's a strawman argument. Does it really look like I give a f**k? It accurately describes the BSN, and that's all that matters.

Gogeta's paragon.

Predominantly... but I like picking from all of the options... so more of a Paragade.  Either way, good checkmate on Arcian there Godwood.

Again... (how many times should I say this...)... the issue is FAVORITISM, not that one choice is (subjectively) better than the other at any given time (or some deep-seeded wish that I picked a different option over another).  It's that the outcomes are ALWAYS skewed in favor of Paragon choices to the point where you know what kind of outcome you'll get before even having to make a choice.  That's the problem.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 26 décembre 2011 - 04:51 .

[GodWood]

Arcian wrote...
Good luck finding someone who'd be willing to lock me up for wanting to save an orphanage set on fire by an arsonist instead of letting it burn down with all the children inside so I can capture him.

No need to draw up some 'I win scenario' Arcian.
The actions you value in ME (the actions we're talking about and the actions I'm criticising) are what proves your moral retardedness, the ones where you, ya know, continually risk the entire galaxy and sacrificing its safety and well being for the sake of satisfying your own morality.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

GodWood wrote...

Arcian wrote...
Good luck finding someone who'd be willing to lock me up for wanting to save an orphanage set on fire by an arsonist instead of letting it burn down with all the children inside so I can capture him.

No need to draw up some 'I win scenario' Arcian.
The actions you value in ME (the actions we're talking about and the actions I'm criticising) are what proves your moral retardedness, the ones where you, ya know, continually risk the entire galaxy and sacrificing its safety and well being for the sake of satisfying your own morality.

Also not sure why Arcian doesn't understand that "the entire galaxy" includes the Council....

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 26 décembre 2011 - 04:54 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Saving the Council was "morally ideal" but "ethically wreckless" and put the entire galaxy (including the Council) at risk.

[GodWood]

Arcian wrote...
@GodWood: You think that is believable? Man, you are so obviously tainted by grimdark fiction that it's not even funny.

Far more believable then "...and then they got over their 300 year feud where one side commit complete and total genocide against billions of non-combatants and lived happily ever after".