337 réponses à ce sujet

[Bleachrude]

Not going to talk about ME3 but I'm not seeing how renegades got disadvantaged.

Let's talk about the council for example.
Saving the council provided exactly WHAT benefit to paragons? Did paragons get more missions from the council? Did paragons get more money from the council? Did paragons get better gear from the council? Did paragons get more xp for saving the council?

To my knowledge, no and not just from the council itself...The turian shopkeeper would've named his first born after us if we asked (paragons didn't get to ask this though) but other than a feel good feeling, did paragons get any benefit?

What paragons got from the council is the opportunity to have "ah reapers" become a meme?
Are you really saying that THIS is an advantage compared to renegades not meeting the council?

Modifié par Bleachrude, 26 décembre 2011 - 10:22 .

[GodWood]

Ok, from your own words you got:
~ Extra content and dialogue.
~ Praise.
~ A feel good feeling.

We got, nothing. There was a brief time where a news-report implied we'd have a bigger army due to the arms race the turians and humans were having due to the growing 'cold war' between them, but then that was invalidated in a later Cerberus News thing where Bioware said "Oh you get that big force anyway if you save them".

So effectively we got nothing, except for less content and constant scorn. Now honestly, the scorn itself doesn't bother me so much, I do like having negative repercussions as much as positive ones it's just that negative repercussions and scorn is ALL we get.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Arcian wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Saving the Council was "morally ideal" but "ethically wreckless" and put the entire galaxy (including the Council) at risk.

My choice to save the Council was an assessment of probability and not an act of morality. I came to the conclusion that it was possible to both save the DA and stop Sovereign in time. That is because I'm not driven by paralyzing fear and paranoia like GodWood and the TIM cult.

Possible? Maybe. But you're risking the entire galaxy on that "maybe"

[Bleachrude]

Extra content that was the council insulting us? That is considered a plus? Really?

Praise from one shopkeeper which didn't offer any tangible benefit?

And the "feel good" feeling (hmm...is that proper English anyway?) which didn't make for an easier game?

You know what...I'll agree with you if you agree with paragon players feeling shortchanged in not having ANY tangible benefits unlike Renegades (going renegade in ME2 makes for an easier game - various renegade interrupts, not choosing paragon options will result in easier opponents and more money)

[Lotion Soronarr]

CSunkyst wrote...

Risk the Galaxy??? Choosing to let the Destiny Ascension perish and waiting to attack Sovereign is quite possibly the DUMBEST choice you could make. There is a giant Geth fleet in play here, how does it make any sense to try attacking Sovereign with a giant dangerous fleet of Geth battleships at your unguarded rear? Geth ships that are now no longer distracted by the Destiny Ascension, and already have you caught in the crossfire. The galaxy should have been doomed when the Renegades caused their fleet to get obliterated by the combined firepower of Sovereign and the Geth fleet.

Did the proud and mighty warrior Renegades fail at basic tactics 101??? You're going to HAVE to deal with that Geth fleet, it's far better to do it by surprise when their attention is elsewhere.

There is also a giant Citadel fleet there. And the Geth are quite busy with them. Since they are already engaged, they can't jsut turn on a dime..you can't break off an engagement in space that easily. If they were to turn to face the human fleet, they'd exposes their asses to the Citadel fleet.
Saving hte DA is a dumb choice, as it risks both ships and time, when time could be essential to survival of everyone.

Also, since when is the 5th fleet caught in crossfire? If you go after Sovereign, the 5th fleet don't loose a single ship to geth (that we can see).

Also, Sovereign is hte priority, not the geth. The geth can be taken care of far easier than a reaper fleet. Did you fail basis tactics 101?

[GodWood]

Bleachrude wrote...
You know what...I'll agree with you if you agree with paragon players feeling shortchanged in not having ANY tangible benefits unlike Renegades (going renegade in ME2 makes for an easier game - various renegade interrupts, not choosing paragon options will result in easier opponents and more money)

No as you're free to take renegade interrupts if you want to.
I do agree that Bioware's railroading with the Cerberus plot was handled pretty poorly if that makes you feel better.

[Exia001]

while I enjoy listening to this debate, you do have to admit that making the renegade choices does more often than not leave you in a weaker position.

You kill Wrex - no one to help unify the Krogan
You Kill the Council - Other races hate you
Killing the Queen is ambiguous

Destroying the collector base - leaves new technology for Mr Harper
deleting Geth - Unlikely the Geth will aid you

What I don't understand is how some people think that conducting an action which obviously has a negative consequence can somehow be turned around to be a positive, and let's not forget that you are a new player in the galaxy so every negative thing you do is going to ****** somone off, how can being a complete douche to everyone make them go ' he's awesome, let's help him' I'm not saying it's right or wrong choices or whatever I'm just saying that you should expect positive consequences out of something that clearly is negative in the context of the ME universe.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

CSunkyst wrote...

Risk the Galaxy??? Choosing to let the Destiny Ascension perish and waiting to attack Sovereign is quite possibly the DUMBEST choice you could make. There is a giant Geth fleet in play here, how does it make any sense to try attacking Sovereign with a giant dangerous fleet of Geth battleships at your unguarded rear? Geth ships that are now no longer distracted by the Destiny Ascension, and already have you caught in the crossfire. The galaxy should have been doomed when the Renegades caused their fleet to get obliterated by the combined firepower of Sovereign and the Geth fleet.

Did the proud and mighty warrior Renegades fail at basic tactics 101??? You're going to HAVE to deal with that Geth fleet, it's far better to do it by surprise when their attention is elsewhere.

There is also a giant Citadel fleet there. And the Geth are quite busy with them. Since they are already engaged, they can't jsut turn on a dime..you can't break off an engagement in space that easily. If they were to turn to face the human fleet, they'd exposes their asses to the Citadel fleet.
Saving hte DA is a dumb choice, as it risks both ships and time, when time could be essential to survival of everyone.

Also, since when is the 5th fleet caught in crossfire? If you go after Sovereign, the 5th fleet don't loose a single ship to geth (that we can see).

Also, Sovereign is hte priority, not the geth. The geth can be taken care of far easier than a reaper fleet. Did you fail basis tactics 101?

What is dumb is to think that Shepard would have an overview of the battle and be in a position to make tactical calls. The Alliance fleet is led by Admirals who probably have more experience and overview over the current situation. So why ask Shepard anyway? And why would they listen to Shepard if they thought it was the wrong call? Ever wondered about that? Hackett could just do what he thinks best and ignore Shepard. Shepard is a Spectre, not the commander of the Alliance fleet.

Point is, it is not a tactical decision, never was. Shepard is telling them to save the council for diplomatic/political reasons. To show that humans are not all selfish and willing to sacrifice for the better of all. Saving the council is supposed to help humankind to be accepted.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 26 décembre 2011 - 03:16 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Bleachrude wrote...

Extra content that was the council insulting us? That is considered a plus? Really?

Of course. You got additional information as well.

Antagonism as well as praise are content.

Praise from one shopkeeper which didn't offer any tangible benefit?

Content is content.

Of course, the real question to be asked is why weren't there people who were angry at you for any Paragon choices, and why weren't there people happy for Renegade choices? 

And the "feel good" feeling (hmm...is that proper English anyway?) which didn't make for an easier game?

Tone is a critical aspect of storytelling, which a key part of the Mass Effect games. A game is more than gameplay difficulty, but also the narrative that surrounds it.

This is why we have dialogue and relationships at all, instead of one shooting gallery after another.

You know what...I'll agree with you if you agree with paragon players feeling shortchanged in not having ANY tangible benefits unlike Renegades (going renegade in ME2 makes for an easier game - various renegade interrupts, not choosing paragon options will result in easier opponents and more money)

Extra content is a tangible benefit.

If you know anything about ME3, you can also be aware that various paragon choices in ME1 and ME2 do bring extra war assets that their Renegade alternatives don't.

[Dean_the_Young]

GodWood wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...
You know what...I'll agree with you if you agree with paragon players feeling shortchanged in not having ANY tangible benefits unlike Renegades (going renegade in ME2 makes for an easier game - various renegade interrupts, not choosing paragon options will result in easier opponents and more money)

No as you're free to take renegade interrupts if you want to.
I do agree that Bioware's railroading with the Cerberus plot was handled pretty poorly if that makes you feel better.

Personally, I've always wondered why people consider Renegade and Paragon interrupts as choices. You don't get points in the other direction if you pass on them, they have no larger effect on the story, and they are always better than/equal to the alternative of not using them in terms of results.

Interrupts aren't Paragon/Renegade choices. They're alignment/netural choices, just like how many of ME2's dialogue options only had an alignment and neutral option, rather than both alignments.

They're functionally dialogue options, not P/R choices.

[Labrev]

Exia001 wrote...

while I enjoy listening to this debate, you do have to admit that making the renegade choices does more often than not leave you in a weaker position.

You kill Wrex - no one to help unify the Krogan
You Kill the Council - Other races hate you
Killing the Queen is ambiguous

Destroying the collector base - leaves new technology for Mr Harper
deleting Geth - Unlikely the Geth will aid you

Wrex: can be saved as a renegade with Intimidate, can also be lost as a paragon (Ashley shoots him).
Council: alien backlash is reflected in a grand total of... one alien, and various throwaway lines. This supposed hostility does not hinder Shepard in the slightest at any turn in the game.
Queen: unknown outcome, decision is acknowledged in ME2 even if killed.
Base: not sure what you're saying here.
Geth: will still help you, you just lose 5% with no added risk of losing 100%.

When I came to this site, I too thought renegade players had valid gripes. Then I played that way myself and ultimately came to think of these complaints to be pretty vastly overblown. Let me go on the record for saying that my most enjoyable ME career is VERY red (renegade) - no extra content aside from Conrad Verner iirc. Then ultimately the leaked script came out, which despite showing some renegade outcomes as decidedly positive, has still drawn negative response from the usual suspects.

It just goes to show what those people are: whiners. Whilst they claim to be merely pointing out "criticism" of the game, their euphemism for their whining isn't fooling anyone. Not when their "criticism" is made up of (1) insults toward the developers; (2) personal attacks toward other users on this site for merely disagreeing with their opinions; (3) bashing the game, in many cases, completely off-topic in threads (thus killing the quality of discussion on this site).

The real problem is the fact that phony renegades on this site can't find the victory in their outcomes. Playing renegade is not for the faint of heart, but that's exactly what the people on this site who play that way are. But what do you expect, they don't want to accept consequences for their actions in real life, what to say of the game. They are the chief instigators of personal attacks on this site, then plunge into emo misery when they are called out themselves (looking at you: Seboist, laecraft...)

The only thing that would satisfy them at this point would be explicitly "here, have your cake and eat it too!" outcomes. They can kid themselves otherwise all they want, but up to now, everything less has not been good enough.

[krossbow]

LeVaughnX wrote...

DCarter wrote...

You're just speculating about the rachni choice. Granted your outcomes seem plausible but you can't state them as definitive facts until we actually see them unfold as we play through the game.

Moving on, paragon vs renegade was never meant to equate to good vs bad. You play commander shepard an elite soldier saving the galaxies advanced species from doom at the hands of the reapers. Your a god damn hero regardless of whether you smile or scowl at people.

I agree with you that your actions should have consequences but the common theme with renegade choices in ME1 is that you end up with less content in ME2 (emails or characters).

Lets play the logic game! 

Bioware showed Rachni Reaper Hybrids (Rachni Husks). They've said a lot of Paragon choices have the chance to really screw us over (no I'm not bothering to get proof I'm lazy - get it yourself if you direly need it). Its only LOGICAL to assume that the Rachni surviving would be the reason we fight Rachni Husks / possibly a Rachni Reaper! Why? Because we let the Queen of one loose! We told her ""go - be free - rebuild"" which basically gives the Reapers more ammo!

Renegades killed her - thus giving them less of a foe to fight in the long run! Why? SHE COULDN'T BRING HER PEOPLE TOGETHER AND REBUILD THEM! Durp!

Obviously, the presence of any species of husks indicates that that species is too weak to fight off the reapers and is a liability to the forces fighting the reapers; Genocide of that species si the only logical conclusion to prevent the reapers from gaining extra soldiers.


Alright, we need to go exterminate all of humanity, Baatarians, Asari and elkor before the reapers get here; GO! GO! Time is of the essence!

[kumquats]

GodWood wrote...

So effectively we got nothing, except for less content and constant scorn. Now honestly, the scorn itself doesn't bother me so much, I do like having negative repercussions as much as positive ones it's just that negative repercussions and scorn is ALL we get.

L2p
If you play your Renegade like a retard, it's not BWs fault.

[Draco Knight 77]

that is the problem with a RPG having a new game in the time line right after the first because there needs to be canon for the new players and maybe bio-ware choose rengande as the canon for new players

Sorry for the spelling and you only lose 6 ships and gain a half broken ship with 7000 more people on it than died getting it but strangely you don't lose any time just 6 ships

[Mr. Gogeta34]

CSunkyst wrote...
Did the proud and mighty warrior Renegades fail at basic tactics 101??? You're going to HAVE to deal with that Geth fleet, it's far better to do it by surprise when their attention is elsewhere.

Of course not.  You just fail to realize that Geth fleets are fighting all over the Citadel.  You think the entire Geth threat is over just by stopping the small pocket that was attacking the Ascension?  And what are the Citadel Defense force?  Chopped liver?  They weren't annihilated, they suffered losses, but they heard the Council's call for help just like Shepard had.

Tactics 101... is "Cut the head off the snake, and the body will die." 

And when Sovereign could summon the Reapers at any time while you're fighting that pocket of Geth (who could then call reinforcements and keep you fighting there at nauseum (or perhaps even wipe out your human fleet)... how is stopping the galaxy's greatest threat as priority 01 dumb?  Easy answer, it is not.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 26 décembre 2011 - 08:51 .

[Random citizen]

One of the problems is that the system encourage chasing renegade or paragon points to get benefits instead of having benefits from solving problems in certain ways (giving you rep). This result in Shepard behaving strange and sometimes crazy. Role-playing your character is not rewarded.

I would also like to see a better "four fielder" personality scale. As it is now, Shepard is either more or less renegade/paragon (ruthless) or more or less a combination.

You could have: Benign renegade/Malign renegade and Empathic Paragon/Red-tapist paragon.

Benign Renegade (opposite of red-tapist paragon and Malign renegade) Do things her way and is out to protect the innocent (think Dirty Harry)

Malign Renegade (opposite of Benign renegade and empathic paragon) is a bully who enjoys it.

Empathic paragon (opposite of malign renegade and red-tapist paragon) is a caring individual with highly developed emotional intelligence and understanding.

Red-tapist paragon (opposite of benign renegade and empathic paragon) is an individual who primarily is concerned with order, legitimizing authority and doing things by the book.

It could create an interesting space between the four corners.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Some major Renegade actions aren't favorable at all. Like killing Wrex in ME1 and destroying the heretic geth base. I like to put Udina as the head of Council and save the base for T.I.M.
And who doesn't like to punch and kick the ass of criminals in renegade way?!
Be the bad Cop ...

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
Wrex: can be saved as a renegade with Intimidate, can also be lost as a paragon (Ashley shoots him).
Council: alien backlash is reflected in a grand total of... one alien, and various throwaway lines. This supposed hostility does not hinder Shepard in the slightest at any turn in the game.
Queen: unknown outcome, decision is acknowledged in ME2 even if killed.
Base: not sure what you're saying here.
Geth: will still help you, you just lose 5% with no added risk of losing 100%.

//snip

Your whole arguement boils down to.  "Real Renegades don't mind having decisions that don't turn out to be the suprerior alternative at any point (as far as being a hero is concerned).  You do still know that Renegades are heroes too right? (their job is to save the day as well as possible... they just use their own methods to bring that about).  Having a jerk-ish attitude has nothing to do with the actual choices (so that whole "have cake and eat it too" bit is frankly nonsense.  Being a "saint" and being a "sinner" are both their own rewards in games.. that shouldn't justify the actual choice's outcome.

ex)  Gregory House and Jack Bauer are tv show chars that could easily be considered "Renegades."  Bad things always happen to them personally... but they also (on multiple occasions) devise solutions that no other alternative could've done better and gain praise/respect from their peers (whether they like them on a personal level or not).  Their actions have also saved more lives and yielded more positive results than their "Paragon" counterparts in the series on multiple occassions...
 
That's realistic.  Favoritism toward either side is unrealistic... which is the problem.

Council:  The "alien backlash" is anti-human riots (with no human strengths to show for it), no demonstration of increased human presence or human power (compared to the Paragon or even Neutral alternative), stressed inter-species relations (store owner/salarian accusing humans of using "gunboat diplomacy") with nothing to show for it.  And of course we also never get to actually "see" the Council (I personally would've loved to see an epic Renegade arguement with them... but no such content).  Not to mention that Renegade Shepard replaced the old Council to see a change... and no such payoff ever occured.  Neutrals did what they had to do and picked a chairman who (in ME2) can't even call the Council to a meeting... how are they a chairman then?  The Paragon outcome gave Anderson more power as a normal member than Renegade/Neutrals as a chairman... wut?

It's that kind of favoritism that doesn't make sense.

Queen:  Provided extra content for Paragons with no equivalent encounter for Renegades.  What acknowledgement was given for Renegades btw in ME2 concerning the Rachni (out of curiosity)?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Saphra Deden wrote...
This time, you get to meet the new Council even if it is just so they can tell you to your face to ****** off. After all, you, the player, helped create that Council, so don't you think you should at least be able to see it?

There's tons more you can do with Renegade. There is no reason Renegade should mean less content. Both Paragons and Renegades, when importing, should get exclusive content that you otherwise miss by not importing a Shepard from the previous game.

Exactly.

[Dean_the_Young]

Just because it's fun, why don't we pose a challenge.

What was a P/R decision in ME1 in which the Renegade choice couldn't have had a Carryover Consequence?

[Random citizen]

laecraft wrote...

Random citizen wrote...

Empathic paragon (opposite of malign renegade and red-tapist paragon) is a caring individual with highly developed emotional intelligence and understanding.

I'm not sure how realistic that would be. It's hard to remain empathetic when you're killing hundreds every day, face to face. A caring and empathetic Shepard would feel every bullet he drives into his enemies.

He could learn to desactivate the empathy for the enemies and activate it for allies (or he could just keep suffering each time afresh he kills someone throughout the war), but that wouldn't make him that different from a Shepard who saves his empathy for his inner circle.

Paragon Shepard already display strong empathic qualities and often a good social understanding.
Empathic paragon would try and prefer solving problems without violence but would still be a N7marine. Remember that these four corners of personality would only be the corners of the "square" which would define Shepards position.
Kinda like the well know "political compass".

Modifié par Random citizen, 26 décembre 2011 - 09:59 .

[Seboist]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Just because it's fun, why don't we pose a challenge.

What was a P/R decision in ME1 in which the Renegade choice couldn't have had a Carryover Consequence?

The Lord Darius mission....... because it's bugged.