146 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

Dariuszp wrote...

@Someone With Mass, your signature is creepy You know it's a game right ?

So? I've seen worse.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 06 septembre 2011 - 08:28 .

[azerSheppard]

ME Vanguard, nuff said.

It was THE MOST ridiculously broken class around, you where nearly unkillable. Tech became useless in insanity due to immunities, but biotics, goddamn, what a cheat.

[No Snakes Alive]

jreezy wrote...

I don't understand how ANYONE could think of the Adept as the worst class in ME1. Adept was the definition of "overpowered" in the first game.

Did you even play the other classes though? Tech mines were better than Biotics because they left enemies standing there unable to do anything rather than sending them flying off into the stratosphere which at times got annoying. Plus Immunity took about 5 times amount as damage as Barrier. So I'd say Infiltrator was the definition of OP (and even Vanguards before Adepts because they had all the major Biotics that Adepts did plus the ability to reset them).

Truth be told though, almost every class in ME did end up OP, including Adepts. And that's why enemy protections were successfully introduced in ME2 and are being kept around for ME3.

[No Snakes Alive]

[quote]Ahglock wrote...

[quote]Mand0l1n wrote...

 On the other hand I do agree with spamming in that it is a kind of crude and lazy way to balance the difficulty levels and the game would be better if difficulty scaled in a different way while leaving classes in a position where they continued to play like their class.  Somehow I think infiltrators would be upset if cloaking was seen through by all enemies who had their defenses still up, or you couldn't lock onto targets with a charge if shields were still up etc.  Those features are core elements to the class and are integral to how the class plays.  CC is the adepts integral element and while it is easy to overcome, blocking it is a ham handed way to balance the higher difficulties.  

[/quote]

I think it's a bit of a slap in the face to Bioware to call the protection system they worked hard on crude and lazy, especially when the gameplay of Mass Effect 2 is universally lauded for its improvements over ME's gameplay and that protection system plays a central role in that improvement.

We're talking about a multi-layered system that every power and gun in the game revolves around. Just the fact that some attacks (both Tech and Biotic) don't work against protected enemies whereas some are intended to strip Armor and some Shields and so on and so forth in an overall well-balanced manner indicates to me that the protections system is far from crude or lazy. I'm glad they're keeping it around for ME3, personally; it added so much strategic and tactical depth to all of my playthroughs.

And the points about Cloak and Charge were a little bit apples and oranges, IMO. The game allows you to throw a Singularity at a group of armored enemies just the same as it lets you Charge into them. Both attacks will only stagger the enemies instead of reaching their full effect. Plus I guarantee you die if you try using Charge on a group of protected enemies. And same goes for Cloak (unless you're cowering behind cover sniping the whole time) - if you don't use these powers strategically against protected enemies you'll die quickly.

Modifié par No Snakes Alive, 06 septembre 2011 - 11:16 .

[Someone With Mass]

In some levels, there wasn't even any ledges/cliffs to throw the enemies off of. Which made biotics a little useless.

[Bozorgmehr 2.0]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

the soldier is prolly the best at removing protections, having much better weapons and all the ammo powers to take out said protections. GPS/mattock/widow > locust/whatever, wouldnt you agree?

The Widow will kill enemies (protected or not) which makes a biotic follow-up rather pointless

The other weapons are available to all classes.

The Soldier, Infiltrator, Vanguard, and Adept have no powers they can use to remove shields - all they can do is use weapons > no difference whatsoever between those classes when it comes to shield-stripping.

BTW, what's the point in a defense stripping power anyways? A Sentinel or Engineer (the only classes who can remove shields with powers) can cast Overload, but they will be unable to use their other powers for 6 seconds. They can only shoot the enemy (who will be returning the favor). Sentinels and Engineers will be more effective warriors when they ignore Overload, use their weapons to remove shields (which go down much faster than health), then hit them with a Throw or Cryo Blast > You'll kill faster, take less damage, and use less ammo.

The only times defense-stripping powers are useful are to setup power combos (but since you need help from your squad, it's irrelevant whether Shep or someone else casts Overload); or when fighting one of the few bosses who are immune to all other powers (casting Warp against a Preatorian is better than doing nothing). 

[RedCaesar97]

Bozorgmehr 2.0 wrote...

BTW, what's the point in a defense stripping power anyways? A Sentinel or Engineer (the only classes who can remove shields with powers) can cast Overload, but they will be unable to use their other powers for 6 seconds. They can only shoot the enemy (who will be returning the favor). Sentinels and Engineers will be more effective warriors when they ignore Overload, use their weapons to remove shields (which go down much faster than health), then hit them with a Throw or Cryo Blast > You'll kill faster, take less damage, and use less ammo.

The only times defense-stripping powers are useful are to setup power combos (but since you need help from your squad, it's irrelevant whether Shep or someone else casts Overload); or when fighting one of the few bosses who are immune to all other powers (casting Warp against a Preatorian is better than doing nothing). 

My thoughts exactly. I used to focus my Engineer and Sentinel builds on stripping defenses, but then trying to kill them quickly became an absolute chore, especially on some Loyalty missions where you have to take a squadmate that does not have pull or Cryo Blast. It makes things very difficult to kill.

Now I just run around with an SMG or Pistol to strip protections and I am having a lot more fun, and more squadmates become more useful.

[KevShep]

Someone With Mass wrote...

In some levels, there wasn't even any ledges/cliffs to throw the enemies off of. Which made biotics a little useless.

You dont need cliffs. Ive use Adept on insanity and a lot of the time I would not even fire a single shot. Warp works good on even shields. Its not recommended by the game but it works all the same still. I will use it once on an enemy shield and it takes it down about 60-70% (somethimes even 80-90% on some enemys), then it recharges quickly enough that I can cast another one (while behind cover) and problem solved. I can survive this way even being overwelmed on insanity. 

I dont know why poeple are trying to find the fastest way to kill a target when ALL targets go down basicly around the same time anyway reguardless of class or fashion. I like to find combos and how to survive with what ive got.

You dont need cliffs with an adept like I said. You can just pull them up in the air and when there are hanging there you hit them in mid air with a push and just throw them off the map completely. 

Modifié par KevShep, 06 septembre 2011 - 01:03 .

[The Spamming Troll]

Bozorgmehr 2.0 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

the soldier is prolly the best at removing protections, having much better weapons and all the ammo powers to take out said protections. GPS/mattock/widow > locust/whatever, wouldnt you agree?

The Widow will kill enemies (protected or not) which makes a biotic follow-up rather pointless

The other weapons are available to all classes.

The Soldier, Infiltrator, Vanguard, and Adept have no powers they can use to remove shields - all they can do is use weapons > no difference whatsoever between those classes when it comes to shield-stripping.

BTW, what's the point in a defense stripping power anyways? A Sentinel or Engineer (the only classes who can remove shields with powers) can cast Overload, but they will be unable to use their other powers for 6 seconds. They can only shoot the enemy (who will be returning the favor). Sentinels and Engineers will be more effective warriors when they ignore Overload, use their weapons to remove shields (which go down much faster than health), then hit them with a Throw or Cryo Blast > You'll kill faster, take less damage, and use less ammo.

The only times defense-stripping powers are useful are to setup power combos (but since you need help from your squad, it's irrelevant whether Shep or someone else casts Overload); or when fighting one of the few bosses who are immune to all other powers (casting Warp against a Preatorian is better than doing nothing). 

a little nit picky here but not ALL the other weapons are available, only one. mattock =/= mattock/GPS/widow. hell widow is better then all the guns combined including heavys. but the widow also isnt available to all classes either, only 2 of em. the mantis is tho if your into crappy bolt action sniper rifles.......

so what your saying is enemy protections arent even worth useing a debuff on? i thought that protections were supposed to be the most tactical aproach to a third person shooter EVAR? weapons are the best protection strippers, and having a shotty, AR, and sniper with ammo powers make it all the more easier. but i agree, the whole debuff/protections rock/paper/scissors thing is kindof pointless. we didnt want more health to make the game harder like ME1, and bioware gives us more health, with different colors for ME2.

anyways, just wanted  to say hi again bozo!

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 06 septembre 2011 - 05:55 .

[lazuli]

@The Spamming Troll: Defenses are not just technicolor health. Unlike in ME1, we are given many options to immediately strip or severely damage defenses. Your problem with ME2 largely stems from your unwillingness to accept defenses as part of the game.

Modifié par lazuli, 06 septembre 2011 - 05:57 .

[lazuli]

jreezy wrote...

lazuli wrote...

Defenses are not just technicolor health. Unlike in ME1, we are given many options to immediately strip or severely damage defenses. Your problem with ME2 largely stems from your unwillingness to accept defenses as part of the game.

I hope that isn't in response to me.

No, sorry.  I'll edit it to clarify.

[The Spamming Troll]

lazuli wrote...

Defenses are not just technicolor health. Unlike in ME1, we are given many options to immediately strip or severely damage defenses. Your problem with ME2 largely stems from your unwillingness to accept defenses as part of the game.

i accept them, i have to. thers no such thing as ammo powers if theres no enemy protections. they could be bettered for ME3 tho. dont you agree?

what if ME3 features 6 layers of protections just to make the game harder? or does 3 seem just about right? i mean ive never played rock/paper/scissors/bulldozer/claw/spear, but maybe that would be even better! or maybe not.

whatever, im pretty sure you know my prerogative here, laz.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 06 septembre 2011 - 05:59 .

[lazuli]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

lazuli wrote...

Defenses are not just technicolor health. Unlike in ME1, we are given many options to immediately strip or severely damage defenses. Your problem with ME2 largely stems from your unwillingness to accept defenses as part of the game.

i accept them, i have to. thers no such thing as ammo powers if theres no enemy protections. they could be bettered for ME3 tho. dont you agree?

what if ME3 features 6 layers of protections just to make the game harder? or does 3 seem just about right?

Three is a magic number for many things.  I don't think any more defenses are necessary, as the three we have in ME2 pretty much cover everything that's been presented in the lore thus far.

I don't know that you do have to accept defenses, Troll.  I hate Hammerhead combat, so I drop the difficulty down to Casual whenever it comes up.  It hurts my pride a little, but I've beaten all of those fights on Insanity and hated them so it doesn't really matter.

If I didn't enjoy tackling defenses, I'd probably play on a lower difficulty level than Insanity or Hardcore.  I know this suggestion comes up all the time, though, and that you and others have repeatedly rejected it.

In any event, there has been discussion of more difficulty options for ME3, so players can create a more custom-tailored experience.

[Heather Cline]

I have to say the Adept was by far in ME2 the best class for combat wise at least in my opinion especially on the higher difficulties. You could dish out damage from afar quite handily. In ME1 they weren't the best class, the powers took too long to cool down, and you always had to bring a tech along. *shrugs* I dunno each to their own.

[MELTOR13]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

im glad with what
ive seen with the adepts in ME3. it makes me feel like the complaining
was warranted, and it makes alot of other people look foolish, thinking
ME2s aproach was actually the best.

Nobody ever said that ME2 was "the best"...most just didn't agree with your ideas, which, frankly, would break the combat system. Judging from what I've seen from ME3 demos, BioWare has improved upon the Adept, but has done it in a way that won't break their implemented combat system. Protections still exist, and they still stop biotic powers. Giving Adepts more tools to deal with protections (ie, what BioWare looks to be doing) is a good idea....Allowing Adepts to bypass all protections (which is pretty much what you've said you've always wanted) is a bad idea. 

[Bozorgmehr 2.0]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

a little nit picky here but not ALL the other weapons are available, only one. mattock =/= mattock/GPS/widow. hell widow is better then all the guns combined including heavys. but the widow also isnt available to all classes either, only 2 of em. the mantis is tho if your into crappy bolt action sniper rifles.......

You can only use one at a time. The Widow is not very Adept'ish (who like to play with their enemies before killing em); the Mattock or GPS is more than enough for an Adept imho (the Vindi or another shottie would be cool too).

so what your saying is enemy protections arent even worth useing a debuff on? i thought that protections were supposed to be the most tactical aproach to a third person shooter EVAR? weapons are the best protection strippers, and having a shotty, AR, and sniper with ammo powers make it all the more easier. but i agree, the whole debuff/protections rock/paper/scissors thing is kindof pointless. we didnt want more health to make the game harder like ME1, and bioware gives us more health, with different colors for ME2.

Protection does make things more complicated, but they are not nearly as important as you make them. And yes, I only consider using defense-stripping powers worth their while to setup combos (with your squadmates).

anyways, just wanted  to say hi again bozo!

Cheers man. I see you haven't changed

[The Spamming Troll]

MELTOR13 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

im glad with what
ive seen with the adepts in ME3. it makes me feel like the complaining
was warranted, and it makes alot of other people look foolish, thinking
ME2s aproach was actually the best.

Nobody ever said that ME2 was "the best"...most just didn't agree with your ideas, which, frankly, would break the combat system. Judging from what I've seen from ME3 demos, BioWare has improved upon the Adept, but has done it in a way that won't break their implemented combat system. Protections still exist, and they still stop biotic powers. Giving Adepts more tools to deal with protections (ie, what BioWare looks to be doing) is a good idea....Allowing Adepts to bypass all protections (which is pretty much what you've said you've always wanted) is a bad idea. 

nope, never suggested that. i think the impresion ive made over the last year has maybe led you to beleive that, but thats not the case. the idea is simple. i just want my adept to play like an adept on all difficulties, not a singularity warpsloder. consistancey. its a really good thing ME3 combat will be far superior to ME2s so i wont have that artificial challenge anymore. id even suggest enemy protections be on all difficulties, but tweak them or add different demensions to the game rather then forcing my adpet to spam certain abilities. again, consistancy. is that weird, i actually want enemy protections, just not the current enemy protections. im very much over it, becauase i dont play ME2 anymore, good ridance. ME3 is doing alot of good things with what ive been complaining about ,so its very much a discusion ender for me.

ME3 adepts will be more in line with being an ADEPT, which is what i want!

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 06 septembre 2011 - 07:51 .

[The Spamming Troll]

lazuli wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

lazuli wrote...

Defenses are not just technicolor health. Unlike in ME1, we are given many options to immediately strip or severely damage defenses. Your problem with ME2 largely stems from your unwillingness to accept defenses as part of the game.

i accept them, i have to. thers no such thing as ammo powers if theres no enemy protections. they could be bettered for ME3 tho. dont you agree?

what if ME3 features 6 layers of protections just to make the game harder? or does 3 seem just about right?

Three is a magic number for many things.  I don't think any more defenses are necessary, as the three we have in ME2 pretty much cover everything that's been presented in the lore thus far.

I don't know that you do have to accept defenses, Troll.  I hate Hammerhead combat, so I drop the difficulty down to Casual whenever it comes up.  It hurts my pride a little, but I've beaten all of those fights on Insanity and hated them so it doesn't really matter.

If I didn't enjoy tackling defenses, I'd probably play on a lower difficulty level than Insanity or Hardcore.  I know this suggestion comes up all the time, though, and that you and others have repeatedly rejected it.

In any event, there has been discussion of more difficulty options for ME3, so players can create a more custom-tailored experience.

lore will change in ME3, im almost sure of it.

i do play on a lower difficulty. i play on veteran, but i dont upgrade my weapons, i dont upgrade my health, i dont take more heavy weapon ammo, i dont upgrade my squadmates. i play as vanilla as possible, on veteran, just so i can see the toughest challenge without enemy protections. it sucks becaseu ME2 ripped out alot of RPG mechanics, then i refuse to use the ones they did provide me, just becasue of my distaste for enemy protections. im very much playing a standard shooter in ME2, but i get biotics, so that makes me happy.

[Skullheart]

The main problem with the biotics is that they were so nerfed in ME1.

[RedCaesar97]

Skullheart wrote...
The main problem with the biotics is that they were so nerfed in ME1.

I do believe that is the first time I have seen someone write that biotics were nerfed in the first game.

[The Spamming Troll]

he prolly meant ME4.