58 réponses à ce sujet

[The Xand]

So I got to wondering about the Elves and their immortality. It seems to me that the Elves are far too seemingly innocent given the dark and gritty nature of the Dragon Age universe, and in light of much lore gorging I've come up with a few theories. First is that given that both the Elves and Tevinters weren't averse to blood magic, the Elves had been utilising blood magic to prolong their lives and that they had never been truly immortal, especially given that Uthenera sounds very much like a funeral. Given that the Elves had been using magic for much longer than the Tevinters and had in fact taught them how to enter the Fade through use of Lyrium it's not implausible that the Elves would already have been well versed in blood magic too, also as evidence of the Elven superiority with magic are the Eluvians, which even the Tevinter Magisters couldn't utilise.

Oh, and since Flemeth is a giant talking dragon that can possess people it's nearly certain that she's an Old One, and it was the Old Ones that had first taught blood magic to the Tevinters and Flemeth had ties to the Dalish and had taught them magic that could return life to her she may very well have taught the Elves life prolonging blood magic.

Another reason that the Elves might have ceased to be immortal was because the Tevinter magisters had learned how to strip them of their immortality, for whatever reasons they might have had, perhaps as a means of fuelling their blood magic.

In regards to the Golden City, if you have played the Legacy dlc for DA2 you would have met Corypheus, one of the original Tevinter Magisters that had breached Golden City and been tainted and cast down. However Corypheus claims that the city had already been black and corrupted when they reached there and it had corrupted them before casting them down.

[Torax]

All that Gaider stated is that the Elves believe they were once immortal and that they quickened over time thanks to proximity and likely mating with humans. But they claim they were once immortal or at the very least extremely long lived. Meanwhile the Tevinter Imperium just simply claims that is not true. So it's basically the equivalent of "He said, She said". Take that as you will. Anything past that is just assumptions or theories on your part and not supported by Gaider and or any of the writing.

[The Xand]

"a few theories" Ergo not fact. Hypotheses if you will. Well done for picking up on that though. Cookie?


I forgot to mention that the Elves' belief that they lost their immortality through physical contact and proximity with humans sounds like poppycock to me though and will hopefully be delved into further in future games.

Also, not sure about this but I think the Elves do live longer than humans.

Modifié par The Xand, 05 septembre 2011 - 09:56 .

[whykikyouwhy]

@The Xand - I think you've posed some very interesting theories there. Similar lines of thought have been touched upon in a few threads that have been slowly migrating to page 2 of this forum ("The Primeval Thaig Mystery" is one, "Speculations" is another...there are a couple more.) I only point this out in case you want to skim those - lots of good juicy stuff there.

I wonder if the immortality of the elves came not from the hands of the Tevinter Imperium, but from the elves themselves. Maybe they dabbled in something they shouldn't have. Or perhaps when Arlathan fell, so did the source of that particular magic/ability/quality.

So too, was it true immortality or "perceived" immortality? Did they just live a really long long time, and maybe as wars, pestilenece and the like started invading the borders of the elven kingdoms, their natural immunities wavered (much like the European settlers bringing various diseases to the North American native peoples)?

[phaonica]

I like the theory that the elves were once also a nation of blood mages. We've been told often that the Uthenera ritual is funereal, but we use it as a resurrection ritual for Flemeth, which could allude to Uthenera being more like an immortality ritual. I think it is possible that the Tevinters didn't destroy Arlathan at all, but perhaps that the elves did it to themselves on accident. Or perhaps elves once used a type of lost magic that caused them to become tainted (perhaps darkspawn) for some reason.

Either way, I agree that the history of the elves is suspiciously pristine and could use some scandal to liven it up.

Modifié par phaonica, 05 septembre 2011 - 09:58 .

[The Xand]

Ahh, now there's an interesting thought actually, it never occurred to me that Arlathan might have been the source of their immortality and whatever they might have been doing there. Perhaps something to do with the Eluvians and their ability to transmit things? And as Phaonica said, Arlathan had been sunk under mysterious circumstances and it's whereabouts unknown, so it's unlikely that the Tevinters would just have forgotten where it was and it's natural for the Elves to blame them for it being lost.

Modifié par The Xand, 05 septembre 2011 - 10:01 .

[Torax]

Careful Filament. Starting to make my mind all confused like in the Pon Pon Pon kind of way.

[The Xand]

Filament wrote...


Hmm... what if Flemeth is... a Fex.

Are you a Fex, Whykikyouwhy?

Fex you.

[whykikyouwhy]

Filament wrote...


Hmm... what if Flemeth is... a Fex.

Are you a Fex, Whykikyouwhy?

Oh Ser Cannibal Flan...I will not divulge my secrets so easily. *evil throaty laugh*

[IanPolaris]

The Xand wrote...

"a few theories" Ergo not fact. Hypotheses if you will. Well done for picking up on that though. Cookie?


I forgot to mention that the Elves' belief that they lost their immortality through physical contact and proximity with humans sounds like poppycock to me though and will hopefully be delved into further in future games.

I don't think so.  There is precious little evidence for it true, but considering the magical nature of elves and of Thedas itself, it's not impossible that the ancient elves had magical qualities that simply could not survive sustained human contact, and 'immortality" was one of these.

Also, not sure about this but I think the Elves do live longer than humans.

The Dalish certainly seem to and they are the most isolated from humans...but they are also the most isolated from disease and have a much, much better diet than city elves (and that alone may explain the increase in lifespan).

Given the discussion at once, I wonder if the ancient elves were embodied spirits of some kind (which would explain the ancient blood magic btw), that left their physical bodies after a period of time (i.e. got tired of it) hence Uethenara...and that contact with humans slowly cut off this close and innate contact with the fade (just as Dwarves living on the surface lose their innate resistance to magic).

-Polaris

[andraip]

This kinda reminds mind of the story of the Elves from Azeroth (Warcraft Universe), I'm to lazy to seek the story out and read it some years ago so it's paraphrased. The Elves had an energy source (well of something) where they build their capital around, this energy source provided them immortality. It atracted demons. The energy source got destroyed, the capital and the region around it sunk down (creating an ocean). The Elves lost their immortality.
This sounds similar to what we know about DA Elves, they also where immortal until their capital sunk into the ground, and Arlathan felt to an army of demons + Tevinters (so basicly also demons XD).

So maybe the source of Elvhen immortality really came from Arlathan.

[The Xand]

IanPolaris wrote...

I don't think so.  There is precious little evidence for it true, but considering the magical nature of elves and of Thedas itself, it's not impossible that the ancient elves had magical qualities that simply could not survive sustained human contact, and 'immortality" was one of these.
-Polaris

I'd be very surprised and disappointed if that turned out to be true and that the elves lost their imortality because of human cooties. Knowing Bioware there must be a darker reason for it.

IanPolaris wrote...
The Dalish certainly seem to and they are the most isolated from humans...but they are also the most isolated from disease and have a much, much better diet than city elves (and that alone may explain the increase in lifespan).

Given the discussion at once, I wonder if the ancient elves were embodied spirits of some kind (which would explain the ancient blood magic btw), that left their physical bodies after a period of time (i.e. got tired of it) hence Uethenara...and that contact with humans slowly cut off this close and innate contact with the fade (just as Dwarves living on the surface lose their innate resistance to magic).

-Polaris

That last bit about the dwarves living on the surface losing their innate resistance to magic is false btw.

But in regards to the elves being embodied spirits I don't think that would be the case, there's never been any examples of Fade spirits being fertile and capable of breeding so that wouldn't explain the existence of contemporary elves.

I do wonder if the "immortal" elves weren't perhaps abominations of some kind though, because while that would grant them long life it might not grant them full immortality, with their bodies eventually wearing out. For example even Flemeth kept needing to transfer her spirit to newer bodies.

andraip wrote...

This kinda reminds mind of the story of
the Elves from Azeroth (Warcraft Universe), I'm to lazy to seek the
story out and read it some years ago so it's paraphrased. The Elves had
an energy source (well of something) where they build their capital
around, this energy source provided them immortality. It atracted
demons. The energy source got destroyed, the capital and the region
around it sunk down (creating an ocean). The Elves lost their
immortality.
This sounds similar to what we know about DA Elves, they
also where immortal until their capital sunk into the ground, and
Arlathan felt to an army of demons + Tevinters (so basicly also demons
XD).

So maybe the source of Elvhen immortality really came from Arlathan.

Aye, I'm beginning to think maybe there's something to that, though it's worth bearing in mind that according to elven legends the decline of elven immortality came about after contact with humans so it was likely something that the humans did that brought it about. Maybe whatever it was that the elves used to maintain their immortality the humans found abhorrent and destroyed, blood magic shrines and daily sacrifices for example.

Modifié par The Xand, 06 septembre 2011 - 01:58 .

[IanPolaris]

The Xand wrote...

That last bit about the dwarves living on the surface losing their innate resistance to magic is false btw.

I'd check that again, becuase I'm very sure it's quite true.  It's gradual process through.

But in regards to the elves being embodied spirits I don't think that would be the case, there's never been any examples of Fade spirits being fertile and capable of breeding so that wouldn't explain the existence of contemporary elves.

Flemeth was apparently an embodied spirit of some sort and she'd definately fertile.  I don't see any a priori reason an emboided spirit could not be fertile.


-Polaris

[TJPags]

Flemeth is fertile?

Not that I really want to dwell on this, but . . . . we know that how?

[Morroian]

The Xand wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I don't think so.  There is precious little evidence for it true, but considering the magical nature of elves and of Thedas itself, it's not impossible that the ancient elves had magical qualities that simply could not survive sustained human contact, and 'immortality" was one of these.
-Polaris

I'd be very surprised and disappointed if that turned out to be true and that the elves lost their imortality because of human cooties. Knowing Bioware there must be a darker reason for it.

I'd agree with this, losing it through simple contact doesn't fit the overall atmosphere of the games or what they appear to be doing with the lore.

[Morroian]

TJPags wrote...

Flemeth is fertile?

Not that I really want to dwell on this, but . . . . we know that how?

Where did Morrigan come from then?

[DarkDragon777]

TJPags wrote...

Flemeth is fertile?

Not that I really want to dwell on this, but . . . . we know that how?

She must be if she's constantly stealing younger bodies.

[Blacklash93]

IanPolaris wrote...

Flemeth was apparently an embodied spirit of some sort and she'd definately fertile.  I don't see any a priori reason an emboided spirit could not be fertile.

-Polaris

Except Flemeth isn't an embodied spirit of any sort. Has that not been beaten over our heads enough? Morrigan says she's not an abomination. Flemeth scoffs at Ander's consideration of her being one. Fenris highly doubts she is one.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 06 septembre 2011 - 02:22 .

[RagingCyclone]

Morroian wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Flemeth is fertile?

Not that I really want to dwell on this, but . . . . we know that how?

Where did Morrigan come from then?

Even Morrigan does not know. There is no proof that Morrigan is Flemeth's biological daughter. 

[Satyricon331]

Morroian wrote...

The Xand wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
I don't think so.  There is precious little evidence for it true, but considering the magical nature of elves and of Thedas itself, it's not impossible that the ancient elves had magical qualities that simply could not survive sustained human contact, and 'immortality" was one of these.
-Polaris

I'd be very surprised and disappointed if that turned out to be true and that the elves lost their imortality because of human cooties. Knowing Bioware there must be a darker reason for it.

I'd agree with this, losing it through simple contact doesn't fit the overall atmosphere of the games or what they appear to be doing with the lore.

I for one would be happy if that idea turned out to be true simply because it's dark in its own way; humans are an awful species in many ways (not just in the game world, either) and it would embody that fact rather directly.  To me that innate harmfulness would be an extremely dark idea for other reasons too.  Thedas could never have harmonious racial coexistence then, for instance.  However I agree it seems unlikely Bioware will take it in that direction.

[Morroian]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Even Morrigan does not know. There is no proof that Morrigan is Flemeth's biological daughter. 

OK but there's no proof she isn't either. IMHO its more likely that she is because Flemth needs that biological connection to steal the body.

Modifié par Morroian, 06 septembre 2011 - 02:26 .

[IanPolaris]

Blacklash93 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Flemeth was apparently an embodied spirit of some sort and she'd definately fertile.  I don't see any a priori reason an emboided spirit could not be fertile.

-Polaris

Except Flemeth isn't an embodied spirit of any sort. Has that not been beaten over our heads enough? Morrigan says she's not an abomination. Flemeth scoffs at Ander's consideration of her being one. Fenris highly doubts she is one.

Actually Morrigan alludes to the notion that she is earlier.  Morrigan apparently changes her mind over time.  Assuming the legends are even partially true, it seems clear to me that Flemeth was once at least in part an embodied spirit.  We know, for example, the Guardian of the Forest was.  I don't know if the Guardian was fertile, but she seemed to have all the working parts.

-Polaris

[RagingCyclone]

Morroian wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

Even Morrigan does not know. There is no proof that Morrigan is Flemeth's biological daughter. 

OK but there's no proof she isn't either. IMHO its more likely that she is because Flemth needs that biological connection to steal the body.

But in WH Morrigan states that she does not even think Flemeth is human any more, and in DA2 Flemeth even hints that she is more than human or demon. She can split herself...her essence...into several places like the amulet Hawke takes to Kirkwall. Until the dev's tell us otherwise I am inclined to err on the side that Morrigan was a Chasind child Flemeth stole at an early age. And what Flemeth truly is I have no idea. Perhaps she is what she joked at...