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[TJPags]

Morroian wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Flemeth is fertile?

Not that I really want to dwell on this, but . . . . we know that how?

Where did Morrigan come from then?

We have as much evidence that Flemeth gave birth to Morrigan and all those other "daughters" as we do that she stole babies.

As pointed out, Morrigan doesn't know which is true.

While it's certainly possible Flemeth gave birth to her (and possibly others) it's equally likely she was stolen.

That doesn't equate to "we know Flemeth is fertile".

We know Morrigan is . . . that's about it.

[IanPolaris]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Morroian wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Flemeth is fertile?

Not that I really want to dwell on this, but . . . . we know that how?

Where did Morrigan come from then?

Even Morrigan does not know. There is no proof that Morrigan is Flemeth's biological daughter. 

It's very strongy implied from the Chasind legends that DO say that the Witch of the Wild spawns her daughters by seducing Chasind men, and then eating their hearts.  We know that Flemeth frequently invited Chasind men for sex-stays before killing them and expected the same from Morrigan as soon as she was old enough.   There also seems to be at least some passing similarity (esp the eyes) between the two.

I think DAO very strongly implies that Flemeith is fertile and that Morrigan is one her of (many) daughters.

-Polaris

[TJPags]

Chasind legends = "we know".

Okay.

Got it.

[Blacklash93]

IanPolaris wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Flemeth was apparently an embodied spirit of some sort and she'd definately fertile.  I don't see any a priori reason an emboided spirit could not be fertile.

-Polaris

Except Flemeth isn't an embodied spirit of any sort. Has that not been beaten over our heads enough? Morrigan says she's not an abomination. Flemeth scoffs at Ander's consideration of her being one. Fenris highly doubts she is one.

Actually Morrigan alludes to the notion that she is earlier.  Morrigan apparently changes her mind over time.  Assuming the legends are even partially true, it seems clear to me that Flemeth was once at least in part an embodied spirit.  We know, for example, the Guardian of the Forest was.  I don't know if the Guardian was fertile, but she seemed to have all the working parts.

-Polaris

Morrigan, in Origins, was basing her belief that Flemeth was an abomination on what Flemeth told her of her life. It's quite clear that she found out this wasn't the case sometime after Origins.

Everything we've heard in WH and DA2 alludes to the legends of her not being accurate on that detail. The writers wouldn't hint at this so strongly if it wasn't the case.

[RagingCyclone]

IanPolaris...legends are poor sources for facts. To get the facts of history from legends takes gathering those from several accounts and locales, and then discerning what is consistant. And even then those commonalities cannot be accepted as fact, but more as "most probable".

[TJPags]

Don't the Chasind legends also talk about Flemeth raising an army of Chasind people at one point? Something that Flemeth explicitly denied occurred, according to Morrigan?

[Blacklash93]

I'm in the camp that believes Flemeth is related to the Old Gods. I think her turning into a dragon isn't just for show, but rather a hint at her true nature.

If I were to delve a little deeper into my theories, I'd say Flemeth is one of the Old Gods' first children. A mage-dragon capable of shapeshifting.

[DarkDragon777]

I still think she's Fen'Harel, but whatever.

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

Don't the Chasind legends also talk about Flemeth raising an army of Chasind people at one point? Something that Flemeth explicitly denied occurred, according to Morrigan?

No Fereldan legends do.  Flemeth points out that the hero in question had to unite a divided and disunited people.


Don't turn your noses up at legends, people.  They might not be right, but many have at least a grain of truth.  As for Morrigan, I still contend the game makes it VERY clear that they are biological mother and daughter without actually explicitly saying so.

-Polaris

[RagingCyclone]

IanPolaris, my degree is in history...legends are never accepted at face value. NEVER!

[IanPolaris]

RagingCyclone wrote...

IanPolaris, my degree is in history...legends are never accepted at face value. NEVER!

Please say anywhere where I said "Face Value"

I said they often had a grain of truth to them and should not be disregarded.  Try talking to an anthropologist.

-Polaris

[RagingCyclone]

IanPolaris, earlier you were trying to use legends as proof that Flemeth sired children, and that is or is not the case. Yes, some legends have some truth to them, but only after using more than one, likely dozens if possible, archeological records and artifacts, and getting the commonalities from as many sources as possible will you find the most probable truth. To say Flemeth is fertile because legends say she is only accepts the legends at face value. Are they wrong? Possibly. Are they right? Possibly. Without further evidence or sources are discovered/exposed one cannot say for certain.

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Don't the Chasind legends also talk about Flemeth raising an army of Chasind people at one point? Something that Flemeth explicitly denied occurred, according to Morrigan?

No Fereldan legends do.  Flemeth points out that the hero in question had to unite a divided and disunited people.


Don't turn your noses up at legends, people.  They might not be right, but many have at least a grain of truth.  As for Morrigan, I still contend the game makes it VERY clear that they are biological mother and daughter without actually explicitly saying so.

-Polaris

Ehhh, fair enough on the army legend.

But what is your evidence that Morrigan is her biological daughter?  What things make it VERY clear?

[IanPolaris]

RagingCyclone wrote...

IanPolaris, earlier you were trying to use legends as proof that Flemeth sired children, and that is or is not the case. Yes, some legends have some truth to them, but only after using more than one, likely dozens if possible, archeological records and artifacts, and getting the commonalities from as many sources as possible will you find the most probable truth. To say Flemeth is fertile because legends say she is only accepts the legends at face value. Are they wrong? Possibly. Are they right? Possibly. Without further evidence or sources are discovered/exposed one cannot say for certain.

I was using the legends as EVIDENCE for a position.  I never actually said for an unvarishned fact that it was so, only what I tended to believe.  Please read my posts with a little (or a lot) more care before leaping to conclusions.

-Polaris

[TJPags]

Ian, you stated definitively that she is fertile:

IanPolaris wrote...

The Xand wrote...

That last bit about the dwarves living on the surface losing their innate resistance to magic is false btw.

I'd check that again, becuase I'm very sure it's quite true.  It's gradual process through.

But in regards to the elves being embodied spirits I don't think that would be the case, there's never been any examples of Fade spirits being fertile and capable of breeding so that wouldn't explain the existence of contemporary elves.

Flemeth was apparently an embodied spirit of some sort and she'd definately fertile.  I don't see any a priori reason an emboided spirit could not be fertile.


-Polaris

That's making a definitive statement, typo and all.  So let's not jump on people who question your statement of fact.

What is your evidence for it?

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

Ehhh, fair enough on the army legend.

But what is your evidence that Morrigan is her biological daughter?  What things make it VERY clear?

In addition to the sex references (and Morrigan confirms that part of the Chasind Legend is true...Flemeth really does kidnap and rape Chasind men and in DAO at least with the explicit desire of begetting children), there is also the simple physical appearence.  Yellow eyes is rare.  Having both Flemeth and Morrigan both have the same basic facial features (as Alistair comments much  to Morrigan's anger) AND both having yellow eyes, seems very unlikely if they aren't biologically related somehow.  In fact Morrigan is very sensitive to looking like Flemeth (and she does) which may explain part of her denials later.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

That's making a definitive statement, typo and all.  So let's not jump on people who question your statement of fact.

What is your evidence for it?

We learn from Morrigan in DAO that Flemeth is apparently fertile.  The legends of her kidnapping mates are also confirmed by Morrigan, and Morrigan openly admits that she probably does have sisters but Flemeth refuses to talk about them.

I think peple are putting just a bit too much stock in WH to the expense of established lore elsewhere.

-Polaris

[RagingCyclone]

IanPolaris...the apperance thing can be misleading. While Morrigan states she does not take the form of other people does not mean it's not impossible. Perhaps Flemeth is one shapeshifter who does? Plus are the yellow eyes a result of genetics? or the result of being shapeshifters? Too much is unknown.

Edit: As for her sisters, Morrigan states that Flemeth talks of many daughters, but Morrigan has never seen any of them. That's not WH, but DAO.

Modifié par RagingCyclone, 06 septembre 2011 - 03:17 .

[TJPags]

When does Morrigan say she's fertile? When does Morrigan say she's Flemeth's biological daughter? And how the hell would she know, even if she did say it?

There are legends. Okay, those may be true or not. We've certainly seen legends that are not true.

They look alike - umm, okay. Flemeth is a shapeshifter. DA2 Flemeth looks almost nothing like DAO Flemeth - because she's a shapshifter (as all those of us who complained about her new look were told time and again). So . . even assuming they look somewhat alike (and it wasn't just Alistair teasing Morrigan, because that never happens) how do we know that wasn't contrived by Flemeth?

It's fine if you think she's fertile and all that. Let's just not go stating it as fact.

[IanPolaris]

Edit: As for her sisters, Morrigan states that Flemeth talks of many daughters, but Morrigan has never seen any of them. That's not WH, but DAO.

DAO also says that the reason Morrigan never sees her sisters is because they ARE Flemeth.  IE Flemeth body-hops into one of her own daughter.

IMHO what's happening here is the writers have decided to retcon Flemeth into something different than they originally intended, and we are arguing over the rough edges of that.

-Polaris

[RagingCyclone]

IanPolaris...that is exactly what it says about her sisters, they are all Flemeth, but nowhere does it say that any of them are biologically related. Fertility may or may not exist once Flemeth body hops. Why do you think Flemeth wants to send Morrigan to perform the DR before taking her over? It's entirely possible that once Flemeth took over Morrigan's body she would not be able to perform the DR. Again there is too much unknown even from the context of DAO.

[TJPags]

RagingCyclone wrote...

IanPolaris...that is exactly what it says about her sisters, they are all Flemeth, but nowhere does it say that any of them are biologically related. Fertility may or may not exist once Flemeth body hops. Why do you think Flemeth wants to send Morrigan to perform the DR before taking her over? It's entirely possible that once Flemeth took over Morrigan's body she would not be able to perform the DR. Again there is too much unknown even from the context of DAO.

Exactly.

There's nothing to say Flemeth gave birth to Morrigan or any of those other girls.  The legends say - and Morrigan seems to accept - that Flemeth body-hops into these "daughters".  Maybe she does.  Where is the requirement that they be biological to do that?  In all those thousands of years, isn't it possible Flemeth body-hopped into an infertile child?  What then?  Cycle ends?  Cycle didn't end.  What are the odds that not one of those girls was infertile?

Sure, it's completely possible Flemeth IS Morrigan's biological mother.  I'm certainly not saying she's definitely not. 

We don't know.  I see no retcon of anything in that.

[IanPolaris]

RagingCyclone wrote...

IanPolaris...that is exactly what it says about her sisters, they are all Flemeth, but nowhere does it say that any of them are biologically related. Fertility may or may not exist once Flemeth body hops. Why do you think Flemeth wants to send Morrigan to perform the DR before taking her over? It's entirely possible that once Flemeth took over Morrigan's body she would not be able to perform the DR. Again there is too much unknown even from the context of DAO.

Why wouldn't they be fertile?  We are given no reason to think that swapping souls affects the woman's plumbing to put it crudely.  No reason at all.  I think it would be an extraordinary assumption and leap from the available facts to assume they weren't.

-Polaris

[Rifneno]

There's no doubt in my mind that the ancient elves weren't all that innocent. First, look at the codex for Sundermount. The reason it's the way it is is because that's where the Arlathan Empire made its last stand against the Tevinter Imperium there and both sides unleashed unspeakable horrors (i.e. hordes of demons). Both sides. Another thing is the fact they sunk Arlathan. Think about that for a minute. If you're looking to conquer and enslave a people, you don't destroy their capital so utterly. Part of the point of conquering is to take their cool toys, which you don't get if they're in the center of the goddamn planet. You do that kind of thing when you're terrified of the powers that lie within it.

[The Xand]

IanPolaris wrote...


I'd check that again, becuase I'm very sure it's quite true. It's gradual process through.

But in regards to the elves being embodied spirits I don't think that would be the case, there's never been any examples of Fade spirits being fertile and capable of breeding so that wouldn't explain the existence of contemporary elves.

Flemeth was apparently an embodied spirit of some sort and she'd definately fertile. I don't see any a priori reason an emboided spirit could not be fertile.


-Polaris

Surface dwarves are every bit as innately magic resistant as their subterranean brethren, hence no dwarven mages even on the surface.

In regards to Flemeth, I don't think she's an abomination since I don't believe that she is a spirit of the Fade, but rather an OId One, given that they were dragons capable of speech and the ability to transfer their essence into human bodies. I don't believe that her "daughters" were biological offspring either, or else they'd display rather more draconic attributes and be much more powerful.

IanPolaris wrote...

Why wouldn't they be fertile?  We are
given no reason to think that swapping souls affects the woman's
plumbing to put it crudely.  No reason at all.  I think it would be an
extraordinary assumption and leap from the available facts to assume
they weren't.

To be fair I think Flemeth could feasibly get preggers...but why would she want to do that just for a host? I mean that's an entirely unecessary level of pain if she can take over the body of anyone.

Modifié par The Xand, 06 septembre 2011 - 04:10 .