58 réponses à ce sujet

[The Xand]

Rifneno wrote...

There's no doubt in my mind that the ancient elves weren't all that innocent. First, look at the codex for Sundermount. The reason it's the way it is is because that's where the Arlathan Empire made its last stand against the Tevinter Imperium there and both sides unleashed unspeakable horrors (i.e. hordes of demons). Both sides. Another thing is the fact they sunk Arlathan. Think about that for a minute. If you're looking to conquer and enslave a people, you don't destroy their capital so utterly. Part of the point of conquering is to take their cool toys, which you don't get if they're in the center of the goddamn planet. You do that kind of thing when you're terrified of the powers that lie within it.

That's a very good point actually. The elves created the Varterrals as well, and if the Dwarven golems and Harvesters are anything to go by creating dangerous constructs is steeped in blood magic.

[IanPolaris]

The Xand wrote...

Surface dwarves are every bit as innately magic resistant as their subterranean brethren, hence no dwarven mages even on the surface.

Not according to any lore I remember.  I remember that Dwarves are innately magic resistant due to their exposure and resistance to Lyrium, and that this (called Stone Sense) fades as you stay on the surface.  I'd really like you to check that again.

As for surface dwarves not having mages, this is true, but according to Ancient Tevinter (that did these studies) NO dwarven bloodline had the magical spark, ergo no Dwarven mages.  You seem to be conflating the lack of Dwarven mages with Dwarven magic-resistance and they are two different things.

To be fair I think Flemeth could feasibly get preggers...but why would she want to do that just for a host? I mean that's an entirely unecessary level of pain if she can take over the body of anyone.

Not just that but Morrigan refers to it.  When the warden in DAO asks if Flemeth could 'replace' her (Morrigan) when Morrigan tells him of the grimoire, she says "not by any natural means" referring to the withered state of Flemeth's current body.  That conversation does at least imply to me that at one tim Flemeth could (and did) get preggers.

Why?  Risk.  I think the risk of childbearing for such a powerful creature as Flemeth is likely minimal, but there is a low but non-zero risk in abducting people....so it's better to abduct occassionally and get pregnant and control the child from conception to take-over, rather than take chances on increased abduction attempts (since we knew Flemeth steals men to get her rocks off per Morrigan) and the randomness of a wild draw from an abducted child or infant.

-Polaris

[The Xand]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Surface dwarves are every bit as innately magic resistant as their subterranean brethren, hence no dwarven mages even on the surface.

Not according to any lore I remember.  I remember that Dwarves are innately magic resistant due to their exposure and resistance to Lyrium, and that this (called Stone Sense) fades as you stay on the surface.  I'd really like you to check that again.

As for surface dwarves not having mages, this is true, but according to Ancient Tevinter (that did these studies) NO dwarven bloodline had the magical spark, ergo no Dwarven mages.  You seem to be conflating the lack of Dwarven mages with Dwarven magic-resistance and they are two different things.
-Polaris

I disagree, I don't believe it was ever even hinted at. Dwarves don't become mages because they are naturally immune to magic, being naturally immune to magic means that they are much more resistant to the effects of lyrium and are therefore better suited to mining it. They *do not* get their innate magical resistance because they mine a lot of lyrium; they mine a lot of lyrium solely because they are naturally more resistant to it's effects. However exposure to lyrium does eventually begin to have negative effects on a dwarve because even they aren't immune to it forever.

There is no physical difference between surface dwarves and subterranean dwarves.

IanPolaris wrote...

To be fair I think Flemeth could feasibly get preggers...but why would she want to do that just for a host? I mean that's an entirely unecessary level of pain if she can take over the body of anyone.

Not just that but Morrigan refers to it.  When the warden in DAO asks if Flemeth could 'replace' her (Morrigan) when Morrigan tells him of the grimoire, she says "not by any natural means" referring to the withered state of Flemeth's current body.  That conversation does at least imply to me that at one tim Flemeth could (and did) get preggers.

Why?  Risk.  I think the risk of childbearing for such a powerful creature as Flemeth is likely minimal, but there is a low but non-zero risk in abducting people....so it's better to abduct occassionally and get pregnant and control the child from conception to take-over, rather than take chances on increased abduction attempts (since we knew Flemeth steals men to get her rocks off per Morrigan) and the randomness of a wild draw from an abducted child or infant.

-Polaris

Hurm, makes sense. Actually come to think of it, going back to my earlier point about her offspring having draconic characteristics, Morrigan *does* have the same eyes and presumably a child born from Flemeth would be a much more suitable host since it would carry her blood and be a much more compatible vessel. Not to mention it would make it easier to morph into a dragon lol. Also as you said sleeping with a guy and getting pregnant is a safe and fairly innocuous means of acquiring a child.

Modifié par The Xand, 06 septembre 2011 - 05:06 .

[whykikyouwhy]

*clears throat*

I'm going to step in here to clear up the Flemeth debate.

Flemeth is...............me.

Simple as that. *points to avatar*



Anyhow, here's the thing - we don't know enough. We know legends (some), we know conjecture, we know rumors, we know theories from other characters. The Witch of the Wilds herself has said little. Morrigan, wise though she may be, does not know all of the secrets of the woman she refers to as "mother." And why would she? Why would Flemeth divulge everything - all that could make her vulnerable? She already know that Morrigan planned to take the grimoire and hence, did her little "insurance policy" amulet trick. No...her secrets will probably always remain her secrets.

Morrigan could be an aspect of Flemeth - an avatar. She could be Boba Fett to Flemeth's Jango Fett. She could be a young woman that Flemeth has inhabited partially in spirit - hence the eyes. The eyes really mean little though as far as direct genetic line - they could be indicative of a shapeshifter, or some older magicks that both women have been in congress with.

The army of Morrigans from the trailer has yet to be seen. The daughters of Flemeth (other than Morrigan) have yet to be seen. The men that Flemeth supposedly abducted - again, yet to be seen. Unless there is some graveyard with the bones of lost paramours somewhere in the Wilds, it's rumor. Urban legend. Besides, maybe Flemeth just had to quell some urges, not necessarily start having witch babies.

Bottom line - we don't know enough. We can guess. we can postulate, we can parry with speculation, but we cannot definitively say that Flemeth is any one single thing, until such time as it is revealed to us in-game, or the devs make some declaration.

But....to tie this all back to the elves...Flemeth was, I believe, around at the time of the fall of Arlathan. She makes a comment to Merrill on Sundermount about the "people" bending their knee too quickly.



(And she is me.)

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 06 septembre 2011 - 09:43 .

[Macropodmum]

I have to wonder though that if Flemeth kidnaps all these men to use as *ahem* donors, and is so fertile, then where are all these children? Surely Morrigan would have witnessed Flemeth with child? I don't doubt that Morrigan is her daughter but I'm thinking that these men that were used may have been used for something far more sinister than fathering children...

Modifié par Macropodmum, 06 septembre 2011 - 11:53 .

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

There's no doubt in my mind that the ancient elves weren't all that innocent. First, look at the codex for Sundermount. The reason it's the way it is is because that's where the Arlathan Empire made its last stand against the Tevinter Imperium there and both sides unleashed unspeakable horrors (i.e. hordes of demons). Both sides. Another thing is the fact they sunk Arlathan. Think about that for a minute. If you're looking to conquer and enslave a people, you don't destroy their capital so utterly. Part of the point of conquering is to take their cool toys, which you don't get if they're in the center of the goddamn planet. You do that kind of thing when you're terrified of the powers that lie within it.

Assuming Tevinter did sink Arlathan... what if the elves did it themselves because they were terrified of the Tevinters getting their hands on whatever was inside?

[jbrand2002uk]

Macropodmum wrote...

I have to wonder though that if Flemeth kidnaps all these men to use as *ahem* donors, and is so fertile, then where are all these children? Surely Morrigan would have witnessed Flemeth with child? I don't doubt that Morrigan is her daughter but I'm thinking that these men that were used may have been used for something far more sinister than fathering children...

Well the reason being is that having looked into it it goes something like this The flemmeth you see in DA2 isnt actually the original flemmeth, for what she does is raise a daughter then at the right moment uses her vast experiance of magic to transfer her own soul into her daughters body using her daugter as a host for the nex 80 yrs or so and repeating that process time an again over the centuries when required much like she transfered a portion of her soul into that amulet she gives to hawke as a backup incase all does not go well and morrigan kills the real flemmeth 

[Macropodmum]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Macropodmum wrote...

I have to wonder though that if Flemeth kidnaps all these men to use as *ahem* donors, and is so fertile, then where are all these children? Surely Morrigan would have witnessed Flemeth with child? I don't doubt that Morrigan is her daughter but I'm thinking that these men that were used may have been used for something far more sinister than fathering children...

Well the reason being is that having looked into it it goes something like this The flemmeth you see in DA2 isnt actually the original flemmeth, for what she does is raise a daughter then at the right moment uses her vast experiance of magic to transfer her own soul into her daughters body using her daugter as a host for the nex 80 yrs or so and repeating that process time an again over the centuries when required much like she transfered a portion of her soul into that amulet she gives to hawke as a backup incase all does not go well and morrigan kills the real flemmeth 

Yeeeessss....She HAS Morrigan.  Morrigan was taught to help her lure these men to her bed, so surely Morrigan would have WITNESSED Flemeth being pregnant with OTHER children

[The Xand]

Macropodmum wrote...

Yeeeessss....She HAS Morrigan.  Morrigan was taught to help her lure these men to her bed, so surely Morrigan would have WITNESSED Flemeth being pregnant with OTHER children

Morrigan isn't that old, and wasn't she only taught to lure those men as practice for luring the warden? Been a while since I played DA: Origins.