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[Dunmer of Redoran]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Prothy the Prothean wrote...

There are two reasons why seemingly ineligible individuals are raised to stations above their competence: nepotism or covert internal investigation.

So Ashley is actually Col. Campbell's daughter?

Which would in turn mean that we're going to have to save her from an unconscious, naked guard at some point in the game.

[Dean_the_Young]

Badpie wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

They discuss Shep's qualifications in the opening scene of the game, don't they?

And so?  That's an entirely different scene, and one in which Shep did NOT become a Spectre.

Yes but they were discussing the qualifications he had that were the entire reason they put him forth for SpecTRe candidacy.  The Council is well aware of his accompliments and record.  It doesn't matter that they didn't read them off a list at his induction.  Shepard had all the makings of being the first human SpecTRe, but his induction at the time of it was kind of forced and a political necessity.

The Alliance didn't put Shepard forward for Spectre because they thought he would do a swell job. They put Shepard forward for Spectre because they wanted a Spectre, and Shepard was a convenient person to be one. And the Council didn't put Shepard on the Spectre track because Shepard was good, but because the Alliance was pushing for it. And in the end, Shepard's skills or qualifications weren't what got him the status: Udina did.

No one gave Shepard Spectre status in particular because he earned it. Shepard got spectre status because others wanted a Spectre in general.

I feel like Ashley or Kaidan, while qualified, which certainly went a long way toward it are mainly convenient candidates for SpecTRe consideration because of their affiliation with Shepard.

I still think either of them would do a great job though.

And Shepard was a convenient candidate for Spectre consideration because of Akuze/Torfan/Ellysium.

Shepard is good, but being good wasn't what got him selected by the Alliance. Getting noticed by an exceptional event was. That's not changed for Ash or Kaiden simply because Shepard was also in the vicinity: no one has ever claimed Shepard didn't likewise need the support of other members of his squad/command in the career history.

[Dean_the_Young]

TheDarkRats wrote...

Personally, I don't like the idea of VS becoming a Spectre. Neither seem to have the abilities or personality to be a Spectre.

Is this because you believe they aren't Paragon enough? Or because they aren't Renegade enough?

[Dean_the_Young]

Since when were Spectres leaders by qualification?

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Since when were Spectres leaders by qualification?

Considering their powers and mandates? They need to be leaders.

I disagree. They need to be persuasive, to an extent, but that's it. Shepard's the anomoly in being a fire team leader. (And a pretty poor one by other standards for the rest of the game: I mean really, sleeping with the team, Commander?)

[essarr71]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Since when were Spectres leaders by qualification?

Considering their powers and mandates? They need to be leaders.

I'd say their only qualification for the job is being able to get the job done.  Leadership qualities might stem from it, but I'd hardly call Spectres leaders.  Hell, they're introduced as very shadowy figures.  Not sure where you're basing your judgement.

[capn233]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Alliance didn't put Shepard forward for Spectre because they thought he would do a swell job. They put Shepard forward for Spectre because they wanted a Spectre, and Shepard was a convenient person to be one. And the Council didn't put Shepard on the Spectre track because Shepard was good, but because the Alliance was pushing for it. And in the end, Shepard's skills or qualifications weren't what got him the status: Udina did.

I think that is an interesting interpretation.  However the whole point of the opening of ME is that Shepard is someone they think is qualified to be a Spectre due to whatever in his background.  Udina then "makes the call" to the council.  It is at that point they send Nihlus to watch Shepard in action.

Now whether or not the Council would have ever actually made him a Spectre if the events of the first game turned out differently is unknown.  Certainly the only reason the council was considering a human Spectre before the events of the game was to appease the Alliance... which was pushing in order to eventually get a seat on the Council.  Saying the Alliance just randomly picked someone out of a hat when they certainly knew that it would be difficult to get the Council to even approve a human Spectre doesn't make much sense.

Now as to the timing of Shepard becoming a Spectre, perhaps you could say that was somewhat a political convenience.  But Udina would not have even been able to get status for him had Shepard not exposed Saren.  And it wasn't as if Eden Prime was as complete a disaster as it could have been.  Had it not been for Shepard, they wouldn't have learned anything about Saren's involvement, and the spaceport would have been nuked.

Modifié par capn233, 08 septembre 2011 - 10:24 .

[The Interloper]

I like it. It'll be interesting to see how their releationship with Shep changes. Sort of like Garrus and Tali-they came into their own between games.

[Captain Crash]

I think the VS will be the first to admit they cant match Shepards raw talent and ability.  That doesnt mean they will be bad Spectre agents though.  Saren was supposedly the best and was no match for Shepard in the end.  Tela Vasir was clearly an highly trained Asari Commando and again was no match.  

Point being Shepard is unique, to such acclaim the Collectors want her alive for study!  Comparing her and the VS seems a futile arguement.    Yes the VS may be inexperienced, but they do have worthwhile qualities that make them stand out and put them ahead of most other people.

[Dean_the_Young]

capn233 wrote...

I think that is an interesting interpretation.  However the whole point of the opening of ME is that Shepard is someone they think is qualified to be a Spectre due to whatever in his background.  Udina then "makes the call" to the council.  It is at that point they send Nihlus to watch Shepard in action.

And? That's not a contradiction. No one is denying that Shepard is eligable. If Shepard were not qualified, he would not be selected. But he is not selected because he is qualified. It's correlation versus cause and effect.

Shepard is not the only Human qualified to be Spectre. How do we know this? Because we know there are other Humans alive who meet the Council/Alliance's standards for Specters. The reasons Shepard is selected (by the Alliance, by the Council) and others are not is... politics. Shepard gets a nod past other candidates within the Alliance in large part because of the fame and noteriety that accompany the service history, the familiarity to Anderson (who apparently has a say). Shepard gets appointed by the Council for far more basic reasons than that: the reason there's any Human spectre at all is because the Alliance is applying pressure, not because there are qualified Humans out there.

Saying the Alliance just randomly picked someone out of a hat when they certainly knew that it would be difficult to get the Council to even approve a human Spectre doesn't make much sense.

Fortunately, no one is saying that.

Now as to the timing of Shepard becoming a Spectre, perhaps you could say that was somewhat a political convenience.  But Udina would not have even been able to get status for him had Shepard not exposed Saren.

Which was... politics! 

Shepard's value didn't go up because he proved himself a super-capable person by taking down a bar of thugs. Shepard's value changed because the political situation changed (proving Saren's involvement despite the Council's prior defense of him, proving the legitimacy of the overall Human concern).

  And it wasn't as if Eden Prime was as complete a disaster as it could have been.  Had it not been for Shepard, they wouldn't have learned anything about Saren's involvement, and the spaceport would have been nuked.

Different mission. Shepard's spectre mission was to get the beacon. That's the mission for Spectres and Spectre-wannabes. Collateral to human colonies... well, Feros shows what the Council places on that.

[Elanareon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I disagree. They need to be persuasive, to an extent, but that's it.

No. Spectres need to make serious decisions concerning life and death and the law. Followers, enlisted men, don't do that except under unusual circumstances. A Spectre needs to be an officer, a leader. 

They may not lead in all things, like in the engineering bay, or during a medical emergency, or when piloting a ship, but ultimately they need to be capable of leadership when it comes to resolving their missions.

That's not say a non-leader couldn't be made a Spectre. I agree that Shepard was largely made one due to politics. It could be the same for the VS, which would explain Ashley being a Spectre.

I thought Spectres work alone... Shepard was just an exception.

[essarr71]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Considering their powers and mandates? They need to be leaders.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Followers, enlisted men, don't do that except under unusual circumstances. A Spectre needs to be an officer, a leader. 

That's not say a non-leader couldn't be made a Spectre.

Are you talking about rank or qualities?

I just think that if it came down to some jerk who could get a job done vs someone who can lead a squad or platoon, they jerk is the one who'll end up a spectre.

Ashley, regardless of her views/history, would make an excellent spectre because she's capable, efficient and willing to go it alone.  Spectres aren't supposed to be the poster boys for the council.. quite the opposite, I'd gather.

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I disagree. They need to be persuasive, to an extent, but that's it.

No. Spectres need to make serious decisions concerning life and death and the law. Followers, enlisted men, don't do that except under unusual circumstances. A Spectre needs to be an officer, a leader.

Saphara, as someone with a tad more experience and exposure to military officers and non-officers than you, and I only say this because I do consider you a friend and we have talked about such things in private...

That's full of ****.

That's not say a non-leader couldn't be made a Spectre. I agree that Shepard was largely made one due to politics. It could be the same for the VS, which would explain Ashley being a Spectre.

Ignorring that Ashley, as a senior non-com, has more direct leadership experience over soldiers than most officers?

[didymos1120]

Elanareon wrote...

I thought Spectres work alone... Shepard was just an exception.

Codex:

Spectres are agents from the Office of Special Tactics and Reconnaissance and answer only to the Citadel Council. They are elite military operatives, granted the authority to deal with threats to peace and stability in whatever way they deem necessary.

They operate independently or in groups of two or three. Some are empathetic peacekeepers, resolving disputes through diplomacy. Others are cold-blooded assassins, ruthlessly dispatching problem individuals. All get the job done, one way or another, often operating outside of the bounds of galactic law.

[Heimdall]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I disagree. They need to be persuasive, to an extent, but that's it.

No. Spectres need to make serious decisions concerning life and death and the law. Followers, enlisted men, don't do that except under unusual circumstances. A Spectre needs to be an officer, a leader. 

They may not lead in all things, like in the engineering bay, or during a medical emergency, or when piloting a ship, but ultimately they need to be capable of leadership when it comes to resolving their missions.

That's not say a non-leader couldn't be made a Spectre. I agree that Shepard was largely made one due to politics. It could be the same for the VS, which would explain Ashley being a Spectre.

  I disagree that a Spectre must be a leader.  One doesn't have to be a leader to make decisions and many Spectre's are lone operators (As Saren and that Asari were).  That said, I'm fairly certain Ashley would have been an officer already were her family not blacklisted.

[Heimdall]

didymos1120 wrote...

Elanareon wrote...

I thought Spectres work alone... Shepard was just an exception.

Codex:

Spectres are agents from the Office of Special Tactics and Reconnaissance and answer only to the Citadel Council. They are elite military operatives, granted the authority to deal with threats to peace and stability in whatever way they deem necessary.

They operate independently or in groups of two or three. Some are empathetic peacekeepers, resolving disputes through diplomacy. Others are cold-blooded assassins, ruthlessly dispatching problem individuals. All get the job done, one way or another, often operating outside of the bounds of galactic law.

  Then it seems Shepard is still a bit of an exception.  Nobody else seems to go around with an entire posse of non spectres.

[Lord Jaric]

I think some of you are letting your personal feeling/opinions get in the way of rational thinking, there are many factors that can go into this, their pier service that made their career before joining shepard could have gave them some good marks, then there is their actions on Vermire (regardless of who you set up to do what) and being part of the team that helped take down Saren and the geth were big feats, who knows what they have been doing between ME1 and ME3 (besides Horizon), regardless of what you personally think of them, there is evidence that supports them becoming a Spectre.

Modifié par Lord Jaric, 08 septembre 2011 - 10:54 .

[Iakus]

essarr71 wrote...

I'd say their only qualification for the job is being able to get the job done.  Leadership qualities might stem from it, but I'd hardly call Spectres leaders.  Hell, they're introduced as very shadowy figures.  Not sure where you're basing your judgement.

This.  Spectres get a job done.  How is immaterial.  Some Spectres are bad**** soldiers that can take on an entire company all by themselves.  Some are persuasive diplomats.  Others are sneaky assassins.  Or information brokers, or spin doctors, or whatever.  Even though there's only about a hundred Spectres, I'm willing to bet they represent a wide pool of skills and talents

[WolfForce99]

This thread is giving me a headache.

[Killjoy Cutter]

didymos1120 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

They discuss Shep's qualifications in the opening scene of the game, don't they?

And so?  That's an entirely different scene, and one in which Shep did NOT become a Spectre.

It's clear from that scene and additional scenes that Shep was being considered for Spectre induction before Eden Prime, before Saren, before any of it. 

[Badpie]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Since when were Spectres leaders by qualification?

Considering their powers and mandates? They need to be leaders.

Not necessarily.  It seems SpecTRes are a variety of different types.  Saren was a loner and a ruthless results at all costs type of guy.  Vesir may have seemed shady and villainous but she was doing her job as a SpecTRe.  Are there SpecTRes that are good leaders and follow the rules?  Probably.  There are also those that get the job done with a certain degree of stealth I'd imagine.  Maybe some of them aren't even military.  Many could be ambassadors for peaceful discussion, etc. on behalf of the council.  I don't think there's a set list of requirements for them.  Just qualities they each seem to possess that could be useful to the Council.

[capn233]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And? That's not a contradiction. No one is denying that Shepard is eligable. If Shepard were not qualified, he would not be selected. But he is not selected because he is qualified. It's correlation versus cause and effect.

Correlation?  Sure there is a correlation that 100% of the Spectres were considered qualified by the councils and the races they were drafted from.  He wouldn't have been selected if he weren't qualified.  They weren't advancing names of unqualified people to the council.  And clearly the whole point of having an active Spectre evaluate Anderson and then Shepard was to verify that they had what it took to become one.

Shepard is not the only Human qualified to be Spectre. How do we know this? Because we know there are other Humans alive who meet the Council/Alliance's standards for Specters.

You mean one other one as far as we know, Anderson.  Who was then deamed not qualified by the Council.

The reasons Shepard is selected (by the Alliance, by the Council) and others are not is... politics. Shepard gets a nod past other candidates within the Alliance in large part because of the fame and noteriety that accompany the service history, the familiarity to Anderson (who apparently has a say).

That's actually speculation in that we don't actually know anything about other people that they may have been discussin before the intro starts. 

Shepard gets appointed by the Council for far more basic reasons than that: the reason there's any Human spectre at all is because the Alliance is applying pressure, not because there are qualified Humans out there.

So I guess in your copy of ME Shepard went to get a soda, then the council gave into the Alliance and made a token Spectre out of Shepard.

Fortunately, no one is saying that.

Really?  So saying the only reason he was appointed was politics does not negate other reasons for appointment?

Back to reasoning...

The Alliance didn't put Shepard forward for Spectre because they thought
he would do a swell job. They put Shepard forward for Spectre because
they wanted a Spectre, and Shepard was a convenient person to be one.
And the Council didn't put Shepard on the Spectre track because Shepard
was good, but because the Alliance was pushing for it. And in the end, Shepard's skills or qualifications weren't what got him the status: Udina did.

He was convenient?  How exactly?  How does his history only make him politically convenient?  That makes little sense.  It wasn't like any of those backgrounds had him saving Turian babies, or driving old Asari matriarchs to church on Sunday.  And you imply they don't care how well he will do as Spectre... that might as well be selecting someone at random.  Past events (Anderson / Saren) would have made them highly critical of all of the candidates making selection based on merit and not convenience important.  This was their second chance, the first being an utter failure, and took a major effort to obtain.  They weren't going to put forth a half assed candidate.

Which was... politics! 

It was politics that they made a human a Spectre, or considered doing it.  That doesn't mean that selecting Shepard was simply politics or even simply convenient which is your whole argument.

Shepard's value didn't go up because he proved himself a super-capable person by taking down a bar of thugs. Shepard's value changed because the political situation changed (proving Saren's involvement despite the Council's prior defense of him, proving the legitimacy of the overall Human concern).

So his value went up because he proved Saren was a traitor, but not because he proved Saren was a traitor.

Different mission. Shepard's spectre mission was to get the beacon. That's the mission for Spectres and Spectre-wannabes. Collateral to human colonies... well, Feros shows what the Council places on that.

All together that comes off as utter nonsense.  You are essentially claiming Shepard was made Spectre because he happened to be on the Citadel after Saren was exposed... and that the Council did not care about his previous history.  And they weren't just "different missions."  If not for Shepard's involvement at Eden Prime, there would have been no attempt to expose Saren.