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[Killjoy Cutter]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ignorring that Ashley, as a senior non-com, has more direct leadership experience over soldiers than most officers?

I'm talking about more than just leading a fire team.

A Spectre needs to think and Ashley isn't trained or told to think. She's told to follow orders.

Ashley doesn't seem the dumb grunt... she seems very educated in ME1.

(Try to ignore Horizon...  )

[ubermensch007]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

My guess why Jacob isn't considered a candidate?

He is, by Citadel law, a terrorist.

Does he come across better in MEG?  Because in ME2, he's such a doopy second fiddle to whoever he's with.

I haven't actually played Mass Effect Galaxy... So that has no barring on why I like Jacob.But it does add to his credentials as a potential Spectre canidate.You should go over to his  Fan Thread to see why many of us like him  so much.

Modifié par ubermensch007, 09 septembre 2011 - 01:10 .

[essarr71]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ignorring that Ashley, as a senior non-com, has more direct leadership experience over soldiers than most officers?

I'm talking about more than just leading a fire team.

A Spectre needs to think and Ashley isn't trained or told to think. She's told to follow orders.

So was Kaiden.  And so was Shepard at some point.  Been a long time since then for Shep.. has potentially been that way too for the VS.  And seeing as the only mission we know the VS to be on was a clandestine one in deep space, on their own in deep cover.. i'd say they fit the bill for Spectre assignments. 

And where does being your own boss translate to being able to inspire and coordinate others?  Some can excel at managing their own time and total fall apart in a group.  Feels like you're grasping at straws now.

[Heimdall]

ubermensch007 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

ubermensch007 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Are you just going to spam the thread with campaigning for other characters to become Spectres? Well, it's a bit too late for you to even hope to have an effect, and it's also annoying, so please knock it the hell off.

No I'm not going to "spam"... this thread.Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it about the next human Spectre.It has not to my knowledge been confirmed by BioWare that the Virmire Survivor is a Spectre.(Maybe I missed that though)

I am merely stating that I think that there are two other humans in the Mass Effect Universe, who would make far better Spectre canidates than either Kaidan or Ashley....

Someone here has the word "VERSIMILITUDE" in their signature: I get this... Why my first two post in this thread are here.Is in part to show my reasons for why if the Virmire Survivor is a Spectre in ME 3.While Operative Jacob Taylor and Miranda Lawson are around.

I will not be able to "supspend my disbelief"  on that one... <_< Because the idea that the VS is more Spectre qualified than Jacob or Miranda is just preposterous !   I won't be able to take either Kai or Ash seriously as a Spectre...

  They have confirmed it. yes.  How can you possibly think that the Alliance and the Council would consider Cerberus or former Cerberus agents for Spectre status over skilled soldiers that have been loyal to their cause.

I guess b/c I give the Citadel Council more credit for being pragmatic and politically savy than they deserve.I see no reason why the Systems Alliance should be viewed by the Council as the only human organization that they can aquire talented and skilled operatives from.Neither Miranda or Jacob are still with Cerberus in many peoples playthroughs.The STG may not even know much of anything that either Taylor or Lawson did while working for Cerberus.

I don't care what anyone says... The Alliance is NOT HUMANITY - They are just another human instituition with (supposedly humanities best interest in mind) Although if what's on Keiji's greybox is discovered.The Systems Alliance is going to have alot of explaining to do.And the Council may distance themselves from it...

But should the Council ever reject the "best and the brightest" ?

Should the Council ever reject the "creme of the crop"? Like Jacob and Miranda are.I sure as hell wouldn't...

  Well gee, I guess the Council may have a thing against pro-human (At the expense of aliens) terrorist groups.  And any pragmatic person with reason to oppose Cerberus would not fully trust anyone that would willingly work for the Illusive Man.

What you need to understand is that the Systems Alliance is humanities representative outside earth and that the Alliance is a member of the Citadel, not humanity as a group.  Those human colonists in the Terminus?  Outside Alliance and Council juristiction.  The Turian species is not part of the Council, the Turian Hierarchy is.  Humanity is not part of the Citadel Council, the Systems Alliance is.  They are the only relevant human organization when it comes to Spectre selection and neither Miranda nor Jacob are considered friendly.

You can trust Miranda and Jacob all you like, the Alliance and the Council has no reason to.

[Heimdall]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

 I disagree that a Spectre must be a leader.  One doesn't have to be a leader to make decisions and many Spectre's are lone operators (As Saren and that Asari were).  That said, I'm fairly certain Ashley would have been an officer already were her family not blacklisted.

Spectres are expected to operate largely independently. That in itself requires independence and to be truly independent you have to be your own boss. That means having some qualities of leadership. Spectres are not followers who trapse around the galaxy following orders. They create their own missions and carry them out.

Thus need to be leadership material.

  Being capable of independant thought and decision making isn't a quality exclusive to leadership at all.  Leaders should have it, but a lone agent needn't be a leader and they can still have it.

[ubermensch007]

Lord Aesir wrote...Well gee, I guess the Council may have a thing against pro-human (At the expense of aliens) terrorist groups. And any pragmatic person with reason to oppose Cerberus would not fully trust anyone that would willingly work for the Illusive Man.

What you need to understand is that the Systems Alliance is humanities representative outside earth and that the Alliance is a member of the Citadel, not humanity as a group. Those human colonists in the Terminus? Outside Alliance and Council juristiction. The Turian species is not part of the Council, the Turian Hierarchy is. Humanity is not part of the Citadel Council, the Systems Alliance is. They are the only relevant human organization when it comes to Spectre selection and neither Miranda nor Jacob are considered friendly.

You can trust Miranda and Jacob all you like, the Alliance and the Council has no reason to.

Fair enough... You make good points here.I'll give you that... But the Alliance and Council didn't "trust" Commander Shepard about the Reapers.And look where they are now... 

And I guess i should have added that Commander Shepard.The first human Spectre.Captain of the Normandy.Savior of the Battle of the Citadel, should be the one to recommend Jacob and Miranda as Spectre candidates to the Council in Mass Effect 3.His words, his endorsements have wait.He is the one who helped get Anderson or Udina there new job.And he is a Spectre and worked with Ashley/Kaidan and Miranda/Jacob...

If anyone knows what these four characters are capable of its him...

Modifié par ubermensch007, 09 septembre 2011 - 01:27 .

[Heimdall]

ubermensch007 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...Well gee, I guess the Council may have a thing against pro-human (At the expense of aliens) terrorist groups. And any pragmatic person with reason to oppose Cerberus would not fully trust anyone that would willingly work for the Illusive Man.

What you need to understand is that the Systems Alliance is humanities representative outside earth and that the Alliance is a member of the Citadel, not humanity as a group. Those human colonists in the Terminus? Outside Alliance and Council juristiction. The Turian species is not part of the Council, the Turian Hierarchy is. Humanity is not part of the Citadel Council, the Systems Alliance is. They are the only relevant human organization when it comes to Spectre selection and neither Miranda nor Jacob are considered friendly.

You can trust Miranda and Jacob all you like, the Alliance and the Council has no reason to.

Fair enough... You make good points here.I'll give you that... But the Alliance and Council didn't "trust" Commander Shepard about the Reapers.And look where they are now... 

And I guess i should have added that Commander Shepard.The first human Spectre.Captain of the Normandy.Savior of the Battle of the Citadel, should be the one to recommend Jacob and Miranda as Spectre candidates to the Council in Mass Effect 3.His words, his endorsements have wait.He is the one who helped get Anderson or Udina there new job.And he is a Spectre and worked with Ashley/Kaidan and Miranda/Jacob...

If anyone knows what these four characters are capable of its him...

  Well, I assume that you mean that to happen further into the plot ME3.   Because Shepard words don't really have much weight when he's being tried for killing upwards of 300,000 batarians.

Who really knows what will happen after the invasion?  I was under the impression that the Citadel races would be up to their necks in issues.

Once Shepard saves their entire races, I'll grant that this may be enough to get them to consider Jacob and Miranda.  I still think they'll be edgy on anything that once bore a Cerberus label, but there is a chance.

[ubermensch007]

@Lord Aesir: I guess I was primarily thinking Pre-Arrival (BullSH!T) DLC,  Post- Collector Base.You know, back when Commander Shepard didn't have the blood of hundreds of thousands of men women and children on his hands. All thanks to Admiral (I can't get anyone else to do this but Shepard) Hackkett... <_<

I'm glad that the Reaper invasion was put off for awhile.Due to destroying the Alpha-Relay.But the mark on Shepard's honor may not come off... Before Arrival... Commander Shepard could have had a virtually spotless service record.He is renown all over the galaxy.But now many see him as a war criminal.And if the Reapers are victorious than all those batarians will have died in vain... I hate the Arrival DLC

But I digress... Your post-Reaper War scenario could work as well...

Modifié par ubermensch007, 09 septembre 2011 - 01:50 .

[sesheta255]

The problem being that Shepard has not had his/her spectre status reinstated in everyone's playthrough. As far as the Council are concerned Shepard is now working for a known terrorist organisation so Shepard's word really doesn't mean anything, just like it hasn't meant anything to the Council all along. Not to mention that Shepard is now on trial for killing 300000 batarians and destroying a Mass Relay, so I can't see the Council suddenly gaining any more confidence or trust in Shepard's word.

[Heimdall]

sesheta255 wrote...

The problem being that Shepard has not had his/her spectre status reinstated in everyone's playthrough. As far as the Council are concerned Shepard is now working for a known terrorist organisation so Shepard's word really doesn't mean anything, just like it hasn't meant anything to the Council all along. Not to mention that Shepard is now on trial for killing 300000 batarians and destroying a Mass Relay, so I can't see the Council suddenly gaining any more confidence or trust in Shepard's word.

As I said, that's really only a possibility once Shepard saves their collective asses from the Reapers.  Even then Shepard's word might not be enough considering what Cerberus may or may not do in ME3.

[Killjoy Cutter]

ubermensch007 wrote...

@Lord Aesir: I guess I was primarily thinking Pre-Arrival (BullSH!T) DLC,  Post- Collector Base.You know, back when Commander Shepard didn't have the blood of hundreds of thousands of men women and children on his hands. All thanks to Admiral (I can't get anyone else to do this but Shepard) Hackkett... <_<

I'm glad that the Reaper invasion was put off for awhile.Due to destroying the Alpha-Relay.But the mark on Shepard's honor may not come off... Before Arrival... Commander Shepard could have had a virtually spotless service record.He is renown all over the galaxy.But now many see him as a war criminal.And if the Reapers are victorious than all those batarians will have died in vain... I hate the Arrival DLC

But I digress... Your post-Reaper War scenario could work as well...

If the Reapers are victorious, all those Batarians are dead anyway.  In fact, if Shep doesn't destroy the Alpha Relay, all those Batarians are dead no matter what. 

[ubermensch007]

You make a good point Killjoy Cutter: I hadn't thought of that...

Thanks...

Modifié par ubermensch007, 09 septembre 2011 - 02:07 .

[essarr71]

laecraft wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

 I'll just point out that the Council would never give Spectre status to members or former members of a terrorist organization, much less a pro-human terrorist organization.

They already did so. They reinstated Shepard as a Spectre with the full knowledge of his associations.

Reinstated, begrudgingly, as a show of support in light of shep's past, and as a political compromise.  That's a bit different then handing the title to members of an enemy of the citadel.  Shep's a hero and famed spectre, jacob and miranda are simply terrorist operatives in their eyes.

Just pointing out the difference.

[Heimdall]

essarr71 wrote...

laecraft wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

 I'll just point out that the Council would never give Spectre status to members or former members of a terrorist organization, much less a pro-human terrorist organization.

They already did so. They reinstated Shepard as a Spectre with the full knowledge of his associations.

Reinstated, begrudgingly, as a show of support in light of shep's past, and as a political compromise.  That's a bit different then handing the title to members of an enemy of the citadel.  Shep's a hero and famed spectre, jacob and miranda are simply terrorist operatives in their eyes.

Just pointing out the difference.

  Couldn't have said it better

[essarr71]

Saphra Deden wrote...

essarr71 wrote...

And where does being your own boss translate to being able to inspire and coordinate others?  Some can excel at managing their own time and total fall apart in a group.  Feels like you're grasping at straws now.

At straws? What straws? Are you denying that Spectres need to be their own boss?

Ashley doesn't speak with confidence. She doesn't illicit respect. Spectres need to be able to assert their authority without just drawing a gun.

Read my previous posts.  I've (and a few others) mentioned a few times that Spectres are designed to be self-sufficent - their own bosses.  I was pointing out that being able to control yourself doesn't equal being able to control/organize/inspire others.  I mention grasping because instead of defending your opinions, you hop to another line of reasoning.

And I'm not sure where the anti-Ash is coming from.  Her dialogue is only slightly different from Kaidens, and the fact that she can stand up to her former commander (and potential lover) and tell them they can't follow them shows maybe a hint of self-confidence and self-respect.

And I'll agree that Spectres need to be more than simply good shooters, but I ask then what indication you have that Kaiden is any more stable than Ash?  The only history we have with him is how he lost his cool that caused a political disaster that nearly stopped human biotic development cooperation.

The VS are two sides of the same coin.. both slightly broken, with troubled pasts, trying to do the best they can despite their faults/histories.  The fact that they're Spectres in 3 shows they've stepped out from Shep's shadow and HAVE grown.  You won't be seeing the same Kaiden/Ash as in 1 or 2.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Ashley doesn't seem the dumb grunt... she seems very educated in ME1.

I didn't say she was a "dumb grunt", nor did I imply grunts were dumb. I just don't think that as of ME2 she has really displayed the qualities of an independent operative. I might be wrong, as we have only a couple of minutes of her presence in ME2. However she didn't seem to have changed much from her depiction in ME1 and in ME1 I saw potential, but she wasn't there yet.

Your comment that seemed to say that she takes orders, and doesn't think, was where I was starting from on that.  

[1136342t54_]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I didn't say she was a "dumb grunt", nor did I imply grunts were dumb. I just don't think that as of ME2 she has really displayed the qualities of an independent operative. I might be wrong, as we have only a couple of minutes of her presence in ME2. However she didn't seem to have changed much from her depiction in ME1 and in ME1 I saw potential, but she wasn't there yet.

Nihlus basically started off as a talented hot headed grunt in the Turian military and was chosen as a spectre candidate by Saren. Ashley was put in special ops it seems as of ME2 and isn't dead yet. I'd say by ME3 she is qualified to be a spectre. A lot can happen in that time period.

[marshalleck]

Kaidan is a paragon Spectre. "By the book" 
Ashley is a renegade Spectre. "Shoot first, ask questions later."

/can of worms? 

Modifié par marshalleck, 09 septembre 2011 - 04:31 .

[Iakus]

marshalleck wrote...

Kaidan is a paragon Spectre. "By the book" 
Ashley is a renegade Spectre. "Shoot first, ask questions later."

/can of worms? 

Not really.  It's a pretty good, if rather basic, summary of their personalities.

One thing, though:  If you romance them, you can make Kaidan more renegade and Ash more paragon.  I wonder if that's taken into account in ME3?

[mango smoothie]

I think it would have been interesting if only Kaiden was made a Spectre.

[Badpie]

iakus wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Kaidan is a paragon Spectre. "By the book" 
Ashley is a renegade Spectre. "Shoot first, ask questions later."

/can of worms? 

Not really.  It's a pretty good, if rather basic, summary of their personalities.

One thing, though:  If you romance them, you can make Kaidan more renegade and Ash more paragon.  I wonder if that's taken into account in ME3?

Interesting possibilities here!

[Golden Owl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

essarr71 wrote...

And where does being your own boss translate to being able to inspire and coordinate others?  Some can excel at managing their own time and total fall apart in a group.  Feels like you're grasping at straws now.

At straws? What straws? Are you denying that Spectres need to be their own boss?

Ashley doesn't speak with confidence. She doesn't illicit respect. Spectres need to be able to assert their authority without just drawing a gun.

This...Neither Ash or Kaidan really have what it takes.