34 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadison]

Arkalezth wrote...

Ok, maybe I wasn't clear in my first post and looked like a direct response to yours, but it wasn't. Let me explain myself because I think you misunderstood me:

I never said that arabics are black. I said that there were many arabics in Spain, period. It wasn't a response to anything, nor I used it in any context. It was just an example of non-European people in Europe.

I know you didn't that’s my point.

Arkalezth wrote...
I said that slaves could be from anywhere, meaning that they could be white, black or of any other color. Maybe I should have never mentioned slaves, but please, point me to where I said (where I said, not where you interpreted) that most were black, because I can't see it. I saw that SOME could be from non-white races (I didn't even say black), but I never spoke of mass black enslaving. I said that there were many arabics in Spain, you interpreted that I said that all arabics are black and they were massively enslaved.

I think that what I tried to say should be clearer now, if not, I'll try to explain it again. But I'm not the one making assumptions here.

Let me explain. Heres my first post.

Skadison wrote...

there were lots of black people in Spain. .

You then try to correct me.

Arkalezth wrote...

There were many arabic people in Spain. And slaves and such could be from anywhere.

You're trying to downplay the black presence in Spain and trying to imply that the black people in Spain were only slaves. Now you're going to try and deny this but I can make that assumption based on something you say later.

Arkalezth wrote...

I just meant that arabic people were common, and probably more common than blacks in Spain. They dominated most of the country for 700 years, after all...

Exactly there were more Arabs than blacks in Spain because they dominated the country and black people didn't. The only time you mention blacks is in the context of slavery.

Arkalezth wrote...


I just mentioned slaves (no matter their color) because they count as people living in a country, but probably not as adventurers, which is what you play in the game. And some of those slaves were foreigners, and probably non-white. Not all, but some.

When you said non-white you meant black you just didn't have the guts to say it. Arabs are white Europeans are white. Where are non-white slaves gonna come from? India and China are a million miles away. Common sense indicates that non-white slaves most likely are going to be black.

So from the beginning you've tried to downplay the black presence in Spain. It's not just you when I discuss this topic with white people they frequently try to emphasise the Arabs and not the blacks. Also Spanish people don't want to admit they were conquered by black people and try to forget that part of their history.

As I mentioned earlier a lot of the Arabs were mixed race, mixed race is usually considered to be black. Y'know Obama looks nothing like a white guy. The people in Spain were called 'Moors' and some of those people came from black Africa and would have been black. So Arabs dominated Spain and so did black people.

Mirri Greenleaf wrote...

The Islamic Empire had alot of white slaves, the only time that black people got enslaved in mass was due to the Transatlantic slave trade.

The Islamic Empire was an equal-opportunity enslaver; they enslaved everyone they conquered. Where do you think Central and North American slavers got all those slaves? Send the ship's company off into the bush to round up docile blacks? No, they got them from Arab slave traders and other black tribes, who had no moral problem with selling their own race into slavery as long as they were from a different tribe. Don't get me wrong, slavery is the most heinous of evils, but let's at least get the facts straight. Even the short-lived Confederate States of America (you remember, American Civil War, 1861-1865; it was a big deal at the time) had a clause in it's Constitution prohibiting the import of slaves.

My very first PC in NWN2, Mpigani kwa' Mani, was a black eldrich knight. If I got the Swahili right (doubtful), that means Warrior of Peace.

Not sure what you're point is. You haven't contradicted anything I said.

kamal_ wrote...

Neither of those has any bearing on making black characters in nwn2, so please stop it before a mod decides they need to step in.

My point is this. People have argued that there were not many black people in medieval Europe, fantasy games are based on medieval Europe and hence the lack of black characters.

I'm just informing the people that make these games that it's not true there were alot of black people in medieval Europe so please don't make that assumption. Arkalezth is trying to downplay the black presence in Europe and hence the argument.

Anyway don't want to talk about it anymore.

Modifié par Skadison, 07 octobre 2011 - 02:38 .

[dunniteowl]

Okay, let's keep this to a general discussion and not politicize with polemics. In other words SKadison, take it down a notch. No-one's downplaying anything and your efforts to bring this to a new height of tension for whatever reason is wholly inappropriate to this (or any other) NWN2 discussion or the creation of a Black Character.

Okay? Let's leave that one for some other forum.

dno

[Arkalezth]

Well, I think I explained myself already, and DNO's post proves it.

If Skadison doesn't want to understand my explanations and prefers polemizing and invent some false motives behind my words, there's not much else I can do.

Just one thing (really :innocent:) and I'm out, which is what I tried to explain in my previous post. This:

Arkalezth wrote...

There were many arabic people in Spain.

was a response to The Fred:

The Fred wrote...

Yeah, to be fair, the Sword Coast is a
generic quasi-medieval fantasy setting, and in medieval Europe meeting
someone of basically any non-European ethnicity was either very rare, or
they were an infidel you were about to kill (or be killed by) or
something.

I understand that it could be confusing since I didn't quote him the first time, but my post was mainly a reply to his. That's all. Sorry for the off-topic, I'm finished with it now. *Runs away from the moderator stick*

Modifié par Arkalezth, 07 octobre 2011 - 03:50 .

[dunniteowl]

Oooh, you're just a tad too fast for me. [whiffing sound of a moderator slapstick coming close to a head.]

Yes, let's best just drop it.

[The Fred]

(Anti-mod-stick-note: I'm not trying to keep any arguments going, I think we should all cool down a bit, but I'm genuinely interested in discussing game-developer motivations and suchlike)

Skadison wrote...
My point is this. People have argued that there were not many black people in medieval Europe, fantasy games are based on medieval Europe and hence the lack of black characters.

I'm just informing the people that make these games that it's not true there were alot of black people in medieval Europe so please don't make that assumption.

Define "a lot" (side not). I'm pretty sure there were people of many ethnicities in medieval Europe, but how many? And what period are we talking here anyway?

Apparently, according to the 2001 Census (see Wikipedia), over 85% people in the UK today are White British and over another 5% are White "other". Looking at that table, would you say there were "a lot" of Black people living in the UK today? Well, there are 100s of thousands, so in that sense it's a lot, but it's only a few percent, so you could argue it's really not. All I'm saying is, even the amount of people of a given demographic living in a country where we know the statistics is something of a judgement call, so how would one expect people to do better at judging what medieval demographics were like?

From a game design point of view, I can completely see why they wouldn't have a large number of characters of, let's say any "non-European-equivalent-ethnicity". Regardless of exact figures, there is a definate perception that there weren't large numbers of those people living in medival European countries (depending exactly on the country - I fancy the Sword Coast is based more off England, maybe north-west Europe somewhat). However, one thing you have to take into account is that whilst these games are based on real life, they're not. Yes, most in-game countries have real-world equivalents, but that doesn't mean they're in the same geographical locations or political settings.

Consider this:
In the Baldur's Gate game, you can a guy who says he's visited Neverwinter (it's an illusion to the then-upcoming NWN1) and express disbelief that such a place actually exists. Clearly, there is not a lot of travel between the common people of these locales. Now look at a map of Faerun. If you draw a circle around Neverwinter with radius equal to the distance between it and Baldur's Gate (or even Athkatla, if you're feeling generous), you'll barely even get Evereska in there, if at all. Now look at how far somewhere like Rasheman or Thay is.

The only point I'm making is that we have to take into account certain considerations. I don't think the writers of FR lore themselves, let along the makers of the PC games, actually know how easy travel is between the various locations (you have to consider distance, politics, magic, etc). Also, my FR knowledge is not amazing (I'm not a PnP player or anything), but where in FR do people of various ethnicities come from? You have to remember that the Sword Coast is already pretty multicultural, because it has gnomes, dwarves and elves as well. Someone's skin colour is pretty minor compared with, say, their anatomy.

All that aside, yes, you should be able to make people of different ethnicities better in NWN2 because it's a toolset-driven game anyway, but still, it's an interesting problem.

[dunniteowl]

Those are good points, The Fred. I go it simpler (which, for me, is unusual) in my first response to this issue. As a game player, you should be able to make the avatar of your character as you see fit to the best ability of the game being designed. This is not for PC purposes (Political Correctness) but for purposes of your PC (Player Character.)

As far back as I can recall, the FR is a hodgepodge of ethnicities, races and beings. Sure, there are more of one type in some places than in others and so forth. However, as players in a multiracial, multi-ethnic and relatively cosmopolitan section of Aber-Toril (that would be the Forgotten Realms) it seems silly that the player character creation process is so limited. I can understand placing skin color limits on elves, say, so you don't have a purple meanie running around looking like a grape colored elf (though my argument is that such distinctions and limits are the purview of PWs who wish to 'enforce' stricter ethnicity, race and being "rules" of creature descriptions) or for Gnomes so that they don't have any alabaster white gnomes running around -- or blue gnomes -- yeesh!

As far as the will and desires of players to make their characters, though, this is one of those areas of development that I view as a sort of sacred cow (with apologies to any Hindus out there.) The one thing most players really care about is being able to trick out, design and create their characters. In all other respects, especially in RPGs, character creation is probably one of the most defining points in the overall experience of "getting into" the game (along with a good story, of course) for the player. If you can't create pretty much the character of your ideas, then having a 'toon' that is less than desireable according to one's views, the experience of play can be severely lessened. (I personally am not that outrageous in my character designs, but I would like to make fat characters, skinny characters, ones with old, lined faces, different colors, ages, heights, etc.

I have always been in favor of as much character creation control as possible.

[painofdungeoneternal]

I'm against black characters, i mean drow are evil right?

The thing i love about a fantasy world is that you can have red, blue and green characters, and slavery galore, but i guess that is barsoom more than faerun.

It makes issues we have with black and white seem kind of silly, it really helps i think to require people in fantasy to substitute any real world colors just so they can leave their feelings behind.

United Colors lets you pick any color, and we could always use more heads/models. Everything from Indians, oriental, african tribesmen to zulu kings. More the merrier.

( off to play another drizzt named character )

[Dann-J]

We obviously need more Darfellans in these games.



Ebony and ivory, living together in perfect harmony...

[Skadison]

I guess I better not post in here for awhile. 

Modifié par Skadison, 10 octobre 2011 - 10:25 .

[dunniteowl]

Guys, let's not keep up with the joking around. I think at this point it's not in very good taste. Let's do please attempt to stay on point and without the (oh so difficult to parse through text) attempts at humor.

Thanks.