162 réponses à ce sujet

[Biotic Sage]

Here is the article.  It is focused on Deus Ex but also makes mention of ME2.

To sum this thing up, the article is about how games like Deus Ex, Mass Effect 2, and Gears of War fail to tell stories.  The author claims that there is a difference between a story and a sequence of events, and that just because all of these games have a plot does not mean they tell a story.  The author claims that games such as Portal, Uncharted 2, and Bioshock do have stories.

First of all, I think the author of the article is confusing the definitions of plot, narrative, and story:
Narrative - the work itself; a story created in a certain medium (film, TV, novel, video game, etc.)
Plot - the sequence of events in the order that they are related to us, the audience; the way a story is told
Story -  the chronological sequence of events within the diegesis (the fictional universe)

So if one were to look only at the story of a show like Lost, for example, which is told in an extremely non-linear fashion, things wouldn't be very interesting.  However, when we look at the plot, of Lost, things get a lot more interesting because flashbacks are shown to us in conjunction with Island events, the flashbacks often paralleling the struggles of the characters in the present.

Claiming that Deus Ex or ME2 does not have a story is completely erroneous.  Stories can be anything from a simple nursery rhyme describing Humpty Dumpty's fall to a 1000 page long Novel.  ME2's story isn't nearly as interesting as ME1's story, but both of the narratives are quite sophisticated; there is shot-reverse-shot, interesting mise-en-scene, and exceptional (voice) acting.  Just because the author of this article did not personally enjoy the stories of these games does not mean they do not have stories.  Pretty much every game made today has some sort of story, however terrible it may be.  Older games that are games in the purest sense of the word, like Duck Hunt, do not have a story.  But hell, even Sonic the Hedgehog has a story.

I think the video game medium's distinguishing factor from the film medium is player agency; player agency leads to an entirely new paradigm for judging quality that may be similar to film, but definitely not identical.  The IGN author doesn't realize this, and that is the main problem I have with this article (other than the misuse of plot/narrative/story in an article that is meant to discuss this very thing).

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 07 septembre 2011 - 07:28 .

[AdmiralCheez]

"Good stories give us characters who win our emotional investment, who develop over the course of the narrative, and who shed light on some aspect of ourselves. Good stories have a palpable dramatic arc that builds toward a climax. And by filling out these requirements, good stories also teach us something about the world."

Oh, like the Mass Effect series?

"What we need—what we all crave—are stories that tap into real humanity, stories that drive their ever-developing characters toward climaxes that challenge them as people, providing a resolution that means something."

Wow, he must really like the Mass Effect games.

"Plenty of very good games, like Mass Effect 2, barely even have a plot—just a collection of side quest-ish missions that lead to an end boss."

Oh.

Well... never mind, then.

(What is it with this aversion to episodic storytelling?)

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 07 septembre 2011 - 01:12 .

[100k]

"Good stories give us characters who win our emotional investment, who develop over the course of the narrative, and who shed light on some aspect of ourselves. Good stories have a palpable dramatic arc that builds toward a climax. And by filling out these requirements, good stories also teach us something about the world."

Wait, what? Good characters add to the elements of a good story. They aren't the biggest factor.

I appreciate the effort on IGN's part to tackle such a tough issue with games-- but I'm reading through the article and seeing some odd things.

[Malanek]

I would have read this, but you guys put me off with your comments. Sounds like a load of crap.

[TuringPoint]

I don't even have to read it to know the guy is making stupid arguments. We know he's a fan of bioshock, though.

I wasn't. The plot seemed considerably weaker than any Bioware game I've played.

[RocketManSR2]

It sounds like a load to me, too. I love Uncharted 2, but it's just a series of events leading up to a boss fight. In fact, by the writers definition, no video game tells a story, lol.

- Brb, going to read this drivel.
- Read half of it and couldn't read any more. It just sounds like he's trolling for attention by bashing some well-loved games.

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 07 septembre 2011 - 01:27 .

[Hathur]

It was a "good in theory" article... but poorly executed and poorly thought out by the writer (something I'm a bit familiar with as a writer myself... I've had my fair share of screw-up articles like that when I was a cub reporter years ago).

The premise is sound but it was fudged by citing some bad examples (as Cheez already pointed out in regards to Mass Effect).

A shame, it could have actually been a good article if it was thought out more carefully and the author did a bit more research into his subject matter.

Modifié par Hathur, 07 septembre 2011 - 01:25 .

[Malanek]

Alocormin wrote...

I don't even have to read it to know the guy is making stupid arguments. We know he's a fan of bioshock, though.

I wasn't. The plot seemed considerably weaker than any Bioware game I've played.

Bioshock was pretty good IMO. The plot was interesting but there wasn't a lot of plot compared to the games length, but that's ok if the gameplay is good. The atmosphere was really good, the engine was a little lacking and gameplay got a touch repetitive. Overall good value IMO but never bothered with the sequel.

[NYG1991]

His cases of a good storytelling in games are all games that have a fixed sequence and ending. That just isn't possible in games like ME and DE:HR where it's left more to the player to plot multiple story paths. ME is essentially telling multiple stories with the same protagonist so any character development that takes place is left more to the player.

When people ask me about ME story I describe it as one of those choose your own adventure books only with more action and less dying and back tracking.

[inzesky]

Wow, I mean... wow.

I'm going to hit my head on the desk now in the hopes of erasing any memory from reading that article.

[NYG1991]

I agree with his point about Red Dead Redemption having a great story(which was a huge surprise to me) but I wasn't into bioshocks story. I thought Dead Space had better story than Bioshock

[RocketManSR2]

A lot of players are very emotionally invested in a great number of characters in Mass Effect. Real tears will be shed in 3. The writer also needs to remember that ME2 is the middle of a story arc, not the end.

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 07 septembre 2011 - 01:35 .

[RocketManSR2]

inzesky wrote...

Wow, I mean... wow.

I'm going to hit my head on the desk now in the hopes of erasing any memory from reading that article.

Better now?  *Hands over ice pack*

[spirosz]

Lol, I never take anything seriously by IGN.

Deus Ex gave me an emotional story that I cared about because it had so many controversial topics going on, that it felt so real and that something like an augmented evolution is possible in the near future. Mass Effect also gave me an emotional story, which I freaking loved and never had such attachments to such great characters. Even though I prefer the first story over the second, I can't even describe how much I enjoy the cast that Bioware created in the second, which led me to fall in love with the story regardless.

It really all comes down to what the individual wants out of a story or what makes a story for them. To me, it seemed the person writing it was probably more into the stories from Bioshock and Uncharted (which I love as well) and that's fine, but I disagree with his views towards story.

Bah, I don't even see the point of comparing games, or even music to be honest. Everyone creating something always brings something unique at whatever level they are in any medium.

[inzesky]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

inzesky wrote...

Wow, I mean... wow.

I'm going to hit my head on the desk now in the hopes of erasing any memory from reading that article.

Better now?  *Hands over ice pack*

A bit. Thank you


4 years of studying English literature did not prepare me for such an article.

Modifié par inzesky, 07 septembre 2011 - 01:45 .

[nelly21]

How the hell was John Marston a different man at the end of the game? I agree that Red had a great story, but a story does not require a transitional path for the protagonist. Is the Three Musketeers a bad story? Is Dracula? Is the Iliad?

This author clearly seems to believe that he knows the definition of a good story. And as Admiral Cheez has already aptly pointed out, his definition isn't even consistent.

[AdmiralCheez]

100k wrote...

Wait, what? Good characters add to the elements of a good story. They aren't the biggest factor.

They're not even completely dependent on each other.  You can have a good story with crap characters, or a crap story with good characters.

I appreciate the effort on IGN's part to tackle such a tough issue with games-- but I'm reading through the article and seeing some odd things.

I really think the author's a bit confused.  In a flurry to make a point, he pounded out a bunch of nice-sounding fluff and forgot to put the meat in.  Next time, outline.

Fact is, there are so many parts that make up a good story that you can't just throw up a blog about it.  Entire books and seminars are out there meant to explain what makes a good story, and throwing in the interactive element makes things even more confusing.  How do you have a logical sequence of events when it's up to the player to choose what to do when?  How can the hero of the story show character development when it's the player controlling what comes out of his mouth?  What if an important plot twist never happens because the player skipped it or made a decision that alters the situation?

These are really tough questions.  How can you expect game designers to come up with solid answers when they've only had thirty-ish years?  We've been writing regular fiction since the dawn of civilization and we still haven't figured it the hell out!

When your baby's learning to walk, you don't scream at her for not being able to run a marathon.  I'm not saying don't criticize, but maybe instead of declaring something sucks, we can try to figure out why we think it sucks, and why it was made that way.

*in mordin voice* Limitations!

[Atakuma]

I agree with everything he said about Deus Ex, but that's it.

[Shotokanguy]

That article is describing a very nebulous concept. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it wasn't describing anything - he just didn't think Deus Ex had a good story, and tricked himself into thinking it was just a "plot", not a story.

[Biotic Sage]

Shotokanguy wrote...

That article is describing a very nebulous concept. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it wasn't describing anything - he just didn't think Deus Ex had a good story, and tricked himself into thinking it was just a "plot", not a story.

That's what it pretty much boils down to haha.

Just because I don't like someone's personality, doesn't mean I can claim they do not have a personality.

[Apocsapel91]

I have a list of reasons why I don't read IGN and this just adds to the list.

Modifié par Apocsapel91, 07 septembre 2011 - 01:51 .

[nelly21]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Shotokanguy wrote...

That article is describing a very nebulous concept. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it wasn't describing anything - he just didn't think Deus Ex had a good story, and tricked himself into thinking it was just a "plot", not a story.

That's what it pretty much boils down to haha.

Just because I don't like someone's personality, doesn't mean I can claim they do not have a personality.

But Jensen's lack of personality IS his personality. Jensen's transformation is allegory for the humanity he has lost in his transformation. 

I honestly believe that there is a reason Jensen's monotone voice contrasts so vividly against the rest of the cast. He is the fusion of man and machine, the poster child for transhumanism. Perhaps, if Eidos would have brought in better voice actors, that point would have been more obvious.