162 réponses à ce sujet

[lobi]

This is a direct result of an existing mature industry forcing it's method onto a new art form. I knew this would happen when I saw courses that removed the word 'Film' and replaced it with 'Game'.
Siskel and Ebert would rofl in their graves.

[Il Divo]

lobi wrote...

This is a direct result of an existing mature industry forcing it's method onto a new art form. I knew this would happen when I saw courses that removed the word 'Film' and replaced it with 'Game'.
Siskel and Ebert would rofl in their graves.

Ebert is still alive.

[Dexi]

Lol, guys, it's just another dude trying to be smart...
And to Bozogrmehr, Kreia reaaaally made me rethink my way of judging destiny, and how a road in the life is supposed to happen. Made me really considering the journey more than the destination in the paths I choose to go down on in my life.

The Mass Effect series really made me think and realize that a goal can be achieved not only by the same type of actions... I mean, like in doing a lot of harm with good actions ( intentionally or not), and doing good with apparently bad/evil actions.

Since I played Mass Effect 1 and 2 I've become more ruthless, caring less about whether my actions as classified as good or bad as long as I get what I want, using whatever kind of action I see fit, but also, I learnt from KotOR 2 that I need to be careful with the actions that I chose to reach my goals, because even though I don't care whether they're viewed as good or bad, when I'm there and I look back, I need to be at peace with everything I've done, because everything I've done represents the actual destination.

I am who I am because of the things I did and the things that happened to me. Considering that "I" is the destination, and "the things that I did and the things that happened to me" is the journey, you can say that a destination is defined by it's path.


I learnt a lot from games, and still am.

[TobyHasEyes]

Bozorgmehr 2.0 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

1. Legacy of Kain, excluding Blood Omen 2.

2. Bioshock

3. Any conversation with Kreia, from KotOR 2

4. Planescape Torment

I could continue.

Edit: I should also point out that some of the best forms of entertainment haven't been about "impact in the greater scheme of things". The Godfather is considered one of the greatest films ever made, but it doesn't touch on slavery (as you mentioned), or philosophical concepts, etc. It's possible to comprehend the storyline with a single viewing.

Entertainment  =/=  story telling. All those games you've mentioned don't have multiple layers in their story, at the very best, they have slightly interesting characters. Do you think one of those games' (or the Godfather) "story" would be on the lips of the literature community? I seriously doubt that. 

 I would contend that the 'literature community' has no special authority to dictate was counts as a good story or not. Furthermore you seem to state that if any story doesn't have a greater message then it doesn't count as a 'story', or at best a bad story. Though this is all relatively pointless semantics, I don't think that is how people use the term 'story'

 As I said before, this article is just some guy flaunting his preference (which I share) for stories with a character arc, but by dressing it up as a) intellectual, and as dictating what a 'story' actually is

[lobi]

Il Divo wrote...

lobi wrote...

This is a direct result of an existing mature industry forcing it's method onto a new art form. I knew this would happen when I saw courses that removed the word 'Film' and replaced it with 'Game'.
Siskel and Ebert would rofl in their graves.

Ebert is still alive.

So Siskel never bought that gun after all?

[Someone With Mass]

lobi wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

lobi wrote...

This is a direct result of an existing mature industry forcing it's method onto a new art form. I knew this would happen when I saw courses that removed the word 'Film' and replaced it with 'Game'.
Siskel and Ebert would rofl in their graves.

Ebert is still alive.

So Siskel never bought that gun after all?

Didn't Siskel die of a brain tumor or something like that?

[Notlikeyoucare]

Bozorgmehr 2.0 wrote...

I don't think many BSN posters regularly read books Games don't have "stories", the author is absolutely right in that regard (though I don't agree what he said about the games he mentioned in the article). Games are pure entertainment, they use Hollywood-style "story telling" - comes down to the good guys win, the bad guys lose, and all the nice people live happily ever after. That's not a story in my book (a poor kidstory at the very best).

Maybe someone has heard about (or even read) Harriet Beecher Stowe "Uncle Tom's Cabin", to give an example of a "real" or a "good" story. This story is not really about Tom, he is used to tell (or better, teach) people about slavery. This story has played a crucial part in ending slavery and to quote Lincoln when he met her: "So this is the little lady who started this great war." (the US Civil War).

Can someone name one game, just one, that has some impact on the greater sheme of things? A game with a "message", a game that makes you think about more serious stuff than "Am I going to kill the next enemy with my chainsaw or machine gun?" I've never played a game like that.

The IGN author didn't build a strong case, but I agree with his main point - completely - the stories being told in game are crap (which doesn't mean those games are not fun to play btw).

By that logic, you haven't played many videogames. A story is a story regardless of the medium it is presented in. although the methods of that presentation may differ. Video games have told great stories in the past, and have the capacity to continue to do so. Deal with it.

[Bozorgmehr 2.0]

Il Divo wrote...

That depends: has the literary community ever played any of those games?

How many gamers have read the more "serious" literature?

One of your points was about video games simply being about "killing people" and that they disregard "serious stuff". I disagreed and illustrated multiple examples for you. Bioshock, for example, explores the philosophy of Ayn Rand. Planescape Torment explores questions about identity, death, and the self (and includes some of the best dialogue in any genre I've seen). You wanted examples of games where the purpose was something more than killing things. I have provided several.

A couple of philosopic quotes, or something educational does not make a good "story". Anyone playing Civilization will learn a thing or two about history too (and it's not a game about killing things only).

Or would you say that the Godfather is merely an excuse to watch mobsters to engage in excessive violence? It doesn't nullify the great esteem with which many hold the film.

Looking at your sig you might be Italian. If so, then you should know about the young writer from Naples (don't remember his name) who wrote a book about the local maffia. He has to live the remainder of his life in hiding from those mobsters. Why do you think the Maffia hates that guys so much?

(BTW, his story is in a completely different league than the dramatic family saga The Godfather IMHO).

How many game-writers are locked up in prison? You think the author of one of the example you've mentioned should fear for his/her life in some country? Why do you think writers end up in prison - becasue of the characters in their work, the dialogues, or is there something else hidden between the lines that tells a "story" those in power don't like to get out in the open? 

wiggles89 wrote...

The Godfather was excellently written. What are you talking about?

You didn't read the article or did you?

[Bozorgmehr 2.0]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

By that logic, you haven't played many videogames. A story is a story regardless of the medium it is presented in. although the methods of that presentation may differ. Video games have told great stories in the past, and have the capacity to continue to do so. Deal with it.

How many books have you read in your life? Not many I guess.

There are plenty of games in which you experience a fun and exciting adventure, but the writing is more on the level of Donald Duck. It's nowhere near the writing skill of someone like George Orwell.

[Apollo Starflare]

He writes but all I read is silliness.

Can't say I agree with him at all, and the way some people idolise the plot in Bioshock and Portal really does confound me at times. Great games, but no more special in the plot department than many others, and totally eclipsed by some.

I do think it's a bit too easy to say that all games made by BioWare (and some other companies) tell 'great stories' and we tend to put them up on a pedestal at times, more because of the name of the company or the fact the game at least attempts to tell ones, and regardless of whether it actually does tell a great story. However this article misses most of the interesting points to be made on such a topic and instead details a somewhat stale argument that is fairly easy to ignore.

[clopin]

Bozorgmehr 2.0 wrote...

I don't think many BSN posters regularly read books Games don't have "stories", the author is absolutely right in that regard (though I don't agree what he said about the games he mentioned in the article). Games are pure entertainment, they use Hollywood-style "story telling" - comes down to the good guys win, the bad guys lose, and all the nice people live happily ever after. That's not a story in my book (a poor kidstory at the very best).

Maybe someone has heard about (or even read) Harriet Beecher Stowe "Uncle Tom's Cabin", to give an example of a "real" or a "good" story. This story is not really about Tom, he is used to tell (or better, teach) people about slavery. This story has played a crucial part in ending slavery and to quote Lincoln when he met her: "So this is the little lady who started this great war." (the US Civil War).

Can someone name one game, just one, that has some impact on the greater sheme of things? A game with a "message", a game that makes you think about more serious stuff than "Am I going to kill the next enemy with my chainsaw or machine gun?" I've never played a game like that.

The IGN author didn't build a strong case, but I agree with his main point - completely - the stories being told in game are crap (which doesn't mean those games are not fun to play btw).

Games with great stories?
-Enslaved
-Mass Effect 1
-Portal 1 and 2
-Knights of the Old Republic
-Bioshock 1 and 2
-Half-Life 2 (Debatably I guess)

If you played those games and only thought about killing the next thing around the corner, you were missing the purpose of the game. That is your fault as a player, not the games fault at all. Just because they haven't toppled an entire slave industry doesn't mean that they don't have great stories, it just means that they haven't toppled a metaphorical slave industry. And they don't need to. The Butter Battle Book, by Dr. Seuss, didn't single-handedly stop the Cold War, because it didn't try to. It was written in reference to it, to offer an opinion on it, and it was a great metaphorical story, but it didn't stop the Cold War. At the same time, Mass Effect hasn't stopped racial tensions. It's addressed racial issues, but it hasn't stopped them. Does that make it any less of a story? No. Has Bioshock single-handedly fixed a capitalist economy over run by greed? No, but it definitely brought the issue up. You don't have to be world changing to need to be a great story, but being engaging is likely necessary, and being relevant never hurts.

[Notlikeyoucare]

Bozorgmehr 2.0 wrote...

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

By that logic, you haven't played many videogames. A story is a story regardless of the medium it is presented in. although the methods of that presentation may differ. Video games have told great stories in the past, and have the capacity to continue to do so. Deal with it.

How many books have you read in your life? Not many I guess.

There are plenty of games in which you experience a fun and exciting adventure, but the writing is more on the level of Donald Duck. It's nowhere near the writing skill of someone like George Orwell.

Nonsense. Since when was Orwell the standard between what is good and what isn't. Videogames are perfectly capable of conveying a story on his level. It is the people behind it that lack the expertise to do so.

Planescape Torment.
Legacy of Kain.
KOTOR 1 + 2
Uncharted 2
Deus EX Human Revolution.
Alpha Protocol
Dragon Age Origins

Are all games I can think of off the top of my head. The standard of Orwell? No. Good writing and storytelling? Yes.

EDIT: How could I forget theHalf Life games?

Modifié par Notlikeyoucare, 07 septembre 2011 - 02:19 .

[Xariann]

Add Dragon Age: Origins to that. I didn't mind Dragon Age 2 either, but Origin was way better story wise. And I guess ME 2 is a bit like DA 2, the story is less impressive compared to its predecessor. But yeah, some games do have stories, they might have an impact too. The whole Circle of Mages storyline (basically convicts and looked down upon for being different like it happens in society today with many things), the elves abused in the alienage and the whole "elven racism", etc. Those are all themes that are based in the fantasy world, yet they are quite real.

Modifié par Xariann, 07 septembre 2011 - 02:26 .

[Obsidian Gryphon]

Some non-FPS games, adventure games, have great stories. Anyone played The Longest Journey?   Tis the story of  a girl trying to find herself, the purpose of her life through her experiences. How she dealt with her fears and those close to her. To fall and rise, only to find her path was not what she thought it was. The conclusion was ... interesting and story has not ended, yet.

Modifié par Obsidian Gryphon, 07 septembre 2011 - 02:34 .

[matt-bassist]

Yeah... as an English Major I want to bash my head against a wall after reading such utter tripe. People can say "oh yeah its just his opinion" sure, but he has a platform for spewing out such garbage and there are those who might actually be swayed to his way of thinking.

In truth, every story can be described a sequence of events

[Il Divo]

Bozorgmehr 2.0 wrote...

How many gamers have read the more "serious" literature?

Define "more serious literature". You might list any number of novels, poems, etc, and say that they are . And I might agree in some cases, or think it's crap in others. However, gamers are not the ones making the claim that literature tells bad stories. Your claim is the other way around.

Essentially, it's the same problem we run into with Roger Ebert, claiming that video games cannot be art, but doesn't want to play any video games to determine the truth of that claim.

A couple of philosopic quotes, or something educational does not make a good "story". Anyone playing Civilization will learn a thing or two about history too (and it's not a game about killing things only).

Then it's a good thing that Kreia has more to say than a few quotes. Her character does spin an entire philosophy, which includes references to Machiavelli, Nietzsche, and Antonio Gramsci (to a lesser extent).

Looking at your sig you might be Italian. If so, then you should know about the young writer from Naples (don't remember his name) who wrote a book about the local maffia. He has to live the remainder of his life in hiding from those mobsters. Why do you think the Maffia hates that guys so much?

(BTW, his story is in a completely different league than the dramatic family saga The Godfather IMHO).

Because he chose to write something about the local mafia in Naples, which is incredibly dangerous, not because he wrote a good story. The Godfather may have drawn inspiration from real life affairs, but it was fiction at its core. Your example only works if we accept that any story has to have a significant effect on society, which (in many cases) relies on stories which may only be relevant to a particular period or a controversial topic.

If I'm not concerned with the current economic crisis sweeping the U.S., gay marriage, or abortion, but in something completely different, my work might not have a significant effect on society. Any number of films, graphic novels, books, or even games can be seen as an exception to this. Outside of inspiring a new "gritty" era of comics, did Watchmen affect society in any significant fashion? No, but that does not negate the well-told story or fantastic set of characters.

How many game-writers are locked up in prison? You think the author of one of the example you've mentioned should fear for his/her life in some country? Why do you think writers end up in prison - becasue of the characters in their work, the dialogues, or is there something else hidden between the lines that tells a "story" those in power don't like to get out in the open? 

I'm not understanding the logic here. Your requirement for a good story seems to be that it results in real-world consequences. I can write a remarkably bad story, but depending on what facts/truths I incorporate might still result in real world consequences. If we're in fascist Germany, I don't need to be a great author to be locked up. I just need to say the wrong thing in front of the government.

What I will agree on is that, if one is attempting to convey a certain idea, a better story might give that idea more weight, because it provides an enjoyable experience.

Modifié par Il Divo, 07 septembre 2011 - 03:20 .

[BatmanPWNS]

Do BSN love making these threads so they can bash someone for giving their opinions?

[Walker White]

This essay is actually part of the larger "are video games art" debate that we see raging today. One of the things that "video games are not art" detractors mention is the difference between player voice and authorial voice. They believe that, in order for games to be art (or tell a story), the message or voice must be controlled by the author and not the player.

In the most extreme case, there is some credence to this argument. Do we really want to count all player activity as story? I can certainly tell all sorts of stories of my escapades playing the original Gauntlet. Remember that time elf needed food, badly? But we would be reluctant to say that Gauntlet tells a story in all but the most primitive form.

On the other hand, if you take this argument to the other extreme, games can only tell stories through cut scenes. Any meaningful play choice and you have no story. And most of us who are BioWare fans disagree with this.

So what is the answer? Well, that is unclear, and is a large part of what BioWare and other game companies are trying to explore with interactive narrative.

[Notlikeyoucare]

Il Divo wrote...

Bozorgmehr 2.0 wrote...

How many gamers have read the more "serious" literature?

Define "more serious literature". You might list any number of novels, poems, etc, and say that they are . And I might agree in some cases, or think it's crap in others. However, gamers are not the ones making the claim that literature tells bad stories. Your claim is the other way around.

Essentially, it's the same problem we run into with Roger Ebert, claiming that video games cannot be art, but doesn't want to play any video games to determine the truth of that claim.

A couple of philosopic quotes, or something educational does not make a good "story". Anyone playing Civilization will learn a thing or two about history too (and it's not a game about killing things only).

Then it's a good thing that Kreia has more to say than a few quotes. Her character does spin an entire philosophy, which includes references to Machiavelli, Nietzsche, and Antonio Gramsci (to a lesser extent).

Looking at your sig you might be Italian. If so, then you should know about the young writer from Naples (don't remember his name) who wrote a book about the local maffia. He has to live the remainder of his life in hiding from those mobsters. Why do you think the Maffia hates that guys so much?

(BTW, his story is in a completely different league than the dramatic family saga The Godfather IMHO).

Because he chose to write something about the local mafia in Naples, which is incredibly dangerous, not because he wrote a good story. The Godfather may have drawn inspiration from real life affairs, but it was fiction at its core. Your example only works if we accept that any story has to have a significant effect on society, which (in many cases) relies on stories which may only be relevant to a particular period or a controversial topic.

If I'm not concerned with the current economic crisis sweeping the U.S., gay marriage, or abortion, but in something completely different, my work might not have a significant effect on society. Any number of films, graphic novels, books, or even games can be seen as an exception to this. Outside of inspiring a new "gritty" era of comics, did Watchmen affect society in any significant fashion? No, but that does not negate the well-told story or fantastic set of characters.

How many game-writers are locked up in prison? You think the author of one of the example you've mentioned should fear for his/her life in some country? Why do you think writers end up in prison - becasue of the characters in their work, the dialogues, or is there something else hidden between the lines that tells a "story" those in power don't like to get out in the open? 

I'm not understanding the logic here. Your requirement for a good story seems to be that it results in real-world consequences. I can write a remarkably bad story, but depending on what facts/truths I incorporate might still result in real world consequences. If we're in fascist Germany, I don't need to be a great author to be locked up. I just need to say the wrong thing in front of the government.

What I will agree on is that, if one is attempting to convey a certain idea, a better story might give that idea more weight, because it provides an enjoyable experience.

IMO, Ebert is one of the worst critics in existance.

[Il Divo]

Walker White wrote...


On the other hand, if you take this argument to the other extreme, games can only tell stories through cut scenes. Any meaningful play choice and you have no story. And most of us who are BioWare fans disagree with this.

While this is the more typical approach  in video games (Ex: Halo, Gears of War), it is by no means the only one. Mass Effect features cut-scenes, but most ot the story is told in a manner where the player is treated as an actual character. The same can be said for Portal/Bioshock/Half-Life, where the player is never removed from the perspective of the PC, which is a very different style of story-telling than a cut-scene.

[Aeowyn]

Bozorgmehr 2.0 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

That depends: has the literary community ever played any of those games?

How many gamers have read the more "serious" literature?

One of your points was about video games simply being about "killing people" and that they disregard "serious stuff". I disagreed and illustrated multiple examples for you. Bioshock, for example, explores the philosophy of Ayn Rand. Planescape Torment explores questions about identity, death, and the self (and includes some of the best dialogue in any genre I've seen). You wanted examples of games where the purpose was something more than killing things. I have provided several.

A couple of philosopic quotes, or something educational does not make a good "story". Anyone playing Civilization will learn a thing or two about history too (and it's not a game about killing things only).

Or would you say that the Godfather is merely an excuse to watch mobsters to engage in excessive violence? It doesn't nullify the great esteem with which many hold the film.

Looking at your sig you might be Italian. If so, then you should know about the young writer from Naples (don't remember his name) who wrote a book about the local maffia. He has to live the remainder of his life in hiding from those mobsters. Why do you think the Maffia hates that guys so much?

(BTW, his story is in a completely different league than the dramatic family saga The Godfather IMHO).

How many game-writers are locked up in prison? You think the author of one of the example you've mentioned should fear for his/her life in some country? Why do you think writers end up in prison - becasue of the characters in their work, the dialogues, or is there something else hidden between the lines that tells a "story" those in power don't like to get out in the open? 

wiggles89 wrote...

The Godfather was excellently written. What are you talking about?

You didn't read the article or did you?

By your standards, the author has to be in jail for a story to become good? The only reason the man (I assume the book is Gomorra) is fearing for his life is because he didn't write fiction, he actually wrote about the mafia in Napels. He didn't tell a story, he told facts and decided to print it. 

A story is something which has a beginning, a protagonist, an antagonist a plot and an end.  Our PC it the protagonist, and we are told a story through him. Whether we make one decision or another, the plot still continues and we might see different endings depending on our choices. It is still a story that we are being told. 
For you to claim that games don't have stories is pretty silly, don't you think?

And yes, before you decide to insult my intelligence, I make sure to read two books per week, so I have read plenty of books in my lifetime. 

[Il Divo]

Notlikeyoucare wrote...

IMO, Ebert is one of the worst critics in existance.

It's hard to describe my feelings towards Ebert. I enjoy his approach to writing reviews, which feels very fresh, but (more often than not) his actual opinion on a movie is very different than my own. Drastically different. I also consider his approach to 'gaming as art' very frustrating.

[Veex]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Do BSN love making these threads so they can bash someone for giving their opinions?

When individuals present their opinions to the public they are inviting criticism, whether it be on the BSN or elsewhere. Individuals have agreed with the author in this thread so it certainly doesn't exist solely in opposition.

As far as the article is concerned I think his use or misuse of story, narrative and plot are rather secondary. I think we can grasp that, at the start, his intent was to show that he disliked the episodic nature of choice-driven video games. He obviously tripped over himself while going off on a few tangents along the way but I'm inclined to agree with his general premise, with a few caveats.

In my opinion, as a medium, video games haven't developed an organic pacing. Even in a game the author praises like Red Dead the story coherency and immediacy can become strained when a player is participating in the gameplay. To rephrase that thought perhaps I mean that the gameplay often doesn't progress or relate to the story in a way that relates to or enhances the narrative. So what the medium comes to rely on is a player's memory and understanding of some cutscenes or events that can be minutes to hours apart. You're exercising a variety of different mental and bodily skills when playing video games that even movies don't require. Which can put a strain on this recall. You can read a 200 page novel in a couple of hours and forget secondary and tertiary bits of information with ease that enhance the overall narrative. Now think about your recall when you're also taxing your brain with gameplay related information. Things get lost.

The other thing that seems really salient to me is that games tend to offer activities that are in direct opposition to the story the author seems to value. Side quests, player agency, and a myriad of other things can distract from a central plot and make the experience feel more episodic. Player agency in particular is obviously an issue in terms of main character development, especially in RPGs. Many of us value the ability to input some of our own beliefs, thoughts, and biases into a character which limit the developer's ability to write that character along a static path.

I agree with the author in that, using my assumption of his intent, the video game medium doesn't tell stories as well as other mediums. That obviously occurs for a plethora of reasons but I'm not sure many of us would dispute that premise. I'd also agree with many of you that, though it may not be the best medium for storytelling, video games have produced some very high quality stories.

[Il Divo]

Aeowyn wrote...

And yes, before you decide to insult my intelligence, I make sure to read two books per week, so I have read plenty of books in my lifetime. 

Pffft, well I read three books a week. With my eyes closed. Bring it on.