394 réponses à ce sujet

[Osprey39]

Darpaek wrote...

Thanks Soda!  Finally an answer!  This has been bugging me even since I rolled up my lil city elf hottie.

Osprey39 wrote...

What do you do for a living?  Flip burgers or something?  They couldn't hire me for $20 bucks an hour, I wouldn't take the pay cut and I don't make huge money.  I just make more than that.

Personally, I think you're making assumptions about something you don't have a freaking clue about.

You know, you're a real ****.  We're all working on assumptions when we having this discussion.  I clearly outlined my reasoning, experiences, and thought-process behind my assumptions in later posts - which I'm sure you didn't bother to read before spouting derision.  No one other than you - even those with differing opinions and ideas - has been as discourteous.

You wanna know what I do for a living?  I'm a political organizer.  Last year, I worked for the ****ing President of the United States.  And you know what?  I did it for a lot less than 20/hour.  In fact, if you took my salary versus 15 hour days and 7 day weeks, I probably worked for less than minimum wage.  Don't believe me - I'll be happy to friend you on Facebook so you can see my ****ing resume and photo/video portfolio.  Now, what the **** do you do that makes you so ****ing important?

I'm in sales and like I said, I don't make big money, not even close.  I thought I made it clear that I was not trying to brag about my own salary because it's nothing to brag about.  

I was trying to make the point that saying they only budget $20/hour to something like a voice actor was a ridiculous notion and you were drawing a conclusion from that notion that has no basis in fact.  I read somewhere that they've sold over a million downloads of Warden's Keep.  With $7 million of gross revenue, I think you can afford to bring the voice actors in to record a few more lines can you not?

Finally, I'm sorry if you took offense at what I said.  It was meant more to be humorous than offensive.  

[abracadabra_]

Answering the OP's question,

I don't think it's bull. Because, like it or not, that is how the structure of gaming industries work right now. And how it has always worked since quite some time ago. Introduce a core game title and entice players to fork out more money for, not a new game, but additional content for the old game later on. That way, companies don't need to develop a new game from scratch and still have the excuse charge more money. It's a great business plan: lowering costs and increasing revenue at the same time -- profit maximization. Any game company would be a fool not to take on that plan.

Except that it wasn't called DLC during that time; it was called expansion packs. It used to be just a $50 game plus expansion packs, which, if you think about it, actually function the same way as today's DLCs, except much bigger in size. ie. one expansion pack = many DLCs added together. (The Sims franchise, I remember, was the ultimate exploiter of this business tactic). The only difference now is that people, and their consoles, are more connected to the internet, which makes purchasing additional content faster and much more convenient, instead of you going to the store. Because of that, breaking expansion packs into little packages is finally practical and will earn the company much more money because of the pricing. It's psychological: much cheaper, but at a higher quantity. "Oh it's just $7 I can buy a meal with that money *shrugs* why not" you say, and over time, you realise how much it accumulates bit by bit to more than the price of the original game itself. And that's how EA/Bioware makes the real money, especially with the rampant piracy eating away at their profits.

The bottom line is that game companies are first and foremost businesses; ie. they function for profit. Artistic priorities may rule some days but ultimately, the game MUST MAKE MONEY. No money, no studio, no game. Simple as that. And that's why DLCs (and expansion packs) exist. I don't see it changing in the future; in fact, I would expect people to think of more ways to exploit consumers and milk every last dollar with a single game.

Modifié par abracadabra_, 22 novembre 2009 - 06:30 .

[0LunarEclipse0]

Gabochido wrote...

As a developer of DA:O, I'm very proud of our work and it saddens me to read that some people believe that weeks of a full team (plus external companies for translations and voice overs, among other things) of work are not worth $7 or even $5 dollars. 

Regardless of that, it brings tears of happiness to my eyes to see everyone else respond to some of those that hate DLC by explaining exactly how it is, thanks guys!

Having said that, we still acknowledge all the feedback we get and while we can't always do something about it, rest assured that its on our minds.

Here are some examples of feedback we've had:

- If DLC is going to cost a certain amount, make it longer or charge less. This is the most common feedback. To this I'll just repeat a few things I've mentioned in other threads. Cost is a big factor. If we make a longer adventure with fully voiced cutscenes and dialogs, that means quite a lot of work AND translating all the writing to 7 languages and adding voice over for 5 of them. A fellow developer mentioned that we could make a really long expansion that just had you battling monsters with lots of hit points and running back and forth in large but empty levels, but we know very well that game length does not equal quality and we try to use our resources to balance out the best experience possible.

- Make bigger meatier full expansion packs. I have mentioned before that whether we do something about it or not, it takes time and resources, so you can't expect one of these immediately after launch.

- DLC should be free, for example ("some older game"). Well, as has been mentioned before, we do offer free DLC for those who purchased the game (and I repeat, the DLC was finished after the game itself was finished, its not like we ripped it from the finished game) but there are specific reasons for why we were able to offer that particular DLC for free. Some people were mentioning multiplayer maps were given for free in other games, but obviously in DA:O an empty map would be quite boring and, in any case, as you guys yourselves explained, its a different type of business model. In those cases free DLC is a way to sell the game and is part of the budget for the game itself. 

These comments are regarding the state of currently announced products. Of course, I can't comment at all on future products or how this feedback will affect them exactly just know that we do read it and take it into account.

To the OP. I'm sorry you feel that way but I hope that the many explanations in this thread help you understand what we are trying to do with DLC. Its a service to those who want to add a little something to their game, and while its a service to you guys, we still need to be able to pay for all the people involved so that we can continue adding cool stuff. And yes, its optional, but we do want you to know about it, that's why there is a guy in the game that tells you.

For those of you still reading... I have a couple of questions for those willing to submit more feedback: Do you know how long you took to finish each of the main quests in the game? Do you feel that an average DLC module should be around equal what these quests take?

I just simply want top thank you I have no real feedback to offer except maybe have the story element be bigger and less about loot. As awesome as the loot is I want that epic Bioware story. Again thank you for all the hard work and continuing to add to our single player experience as a single player fanatic it means alot. Well my girlfriend has my copy of Dragon Age so I am off to beat KOTOR for the 100th time. Please Bioware don`t ever give up on us single player gamers. You really are the only company we have left.

[Georg Zoeller]

The price for voice actors is not set by the developer, it's set by the actor's guild in negotiations with the publishers. Studios and publishers that wish to use any professional voice actor are bound by those contracts

Now granted, we could go and voice the game ourselves, but that would mean we could not use any professional voice actors at all, so the results would be, uh, I don't know I want to see this. I mean, Sheryl probably would make a great voice for Dog, but Mike Laidlaw as Duncan and Stanley Woo as Sandal? really?

I love it when people come to our forums, calculate the cost of certain features and declare with certainty that the developers must be on crack because, you know, it all is so easy .

One day, I might walk into the LHC (after all, I know everything about it ) and do the same to the guys working on that, it'll be awesome.

Modifié par Georg Zoeller, 22 novembre 2009 - 07:40 .

[darkblueglass]

Osprey39 wrote...

Darpaek wrote...

Thanks Soda!  Finally an answer!  This has been bugging me even since I rolled up my lil city elf hottie.

Osprey39 wrote...

What do you do for a living?  Flip burgers or something?  They couldn't hire me for $20 bucks an hour, I wouldn't take the pay cut and I don't make huge money.  I just make more than that.

Personally, I think you're making assumptions about something you don't have a freaking clue about.

You know, you're a real ****.  We're all working on assumptions when we having this discussion.  I clearly outlined my reasoning, experiences, and thought-process behind my assumptions in later posts - which I'm sure you didn't bother to read before spouting derision.  No one other than you - even those with differing opinions and ideas - has been as discourteous.

You wanna know what I do for a living?  I'm a political organizer.  Last year, I worked for the ****ing President of the United States.  And you know what?  I did it for a lot less than 20/hour.  In fact, if you took my salary versus 15 hour days and 7 day weeks, I probably worked for less than minimum wage.  Don't believe me - I'll be happy to friend you on Facebook so you can see my ****ing resume and photo/video portfolio.  Now, what the **** do you do that makes you so ****ing important?

I'm in sales and like I said, I don't make big money, not even close.  I thought I made it clear that I was not trying to brag about my own salary because it's nothing to brag about.  

I was trying to make the point that saying they only budget $20/hour to something like a voice actor was a ridiculous notion and you were drawing a conclusion from that notion that has no basis in fact.  I read somewhere that they've sold over a million downloads of Warden's Keep.  With $7 million of gross revenue, I think you can afford to bring the voice actors in to record a few more lines can you not?

Finally, I'm sorry if you took offense at what I said.  It was meant more to be humorous than offensive.  

They didn't sell a million downloads.
The revenue for the DLCs is $1million. 
http://www.1up.com/d...ory?cId=3176910

I  think that they are far from profitable for $1million if you consider the infrastructure costs, production costs and you need to pay MS and Sony for console DLCs.

Modifié par darkblueglass, 22 novembre 2009 - 07:55 .

[Rainen89]

I will double post because this is retarded. If you don't want to buy DLC dont' freaking buy it, it's new content that's an added bonus do you really go to stores demanding a free expansion because you bought the original? It's stuff that did not come with the original box and you are under no obligation to need it want it or use it to beat the game. Same story with collectors edition you could either get it or not but no one forced you to get it. Stop posting this, seriously. It's a business and if you want a DA 2 or some other sequel to come they do need to make money.

[Arsaidh]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

The price for voice actors is not set by the developer, it's set by the actor's guild in negotiations with the publishers. Studios and publishers that wish to use any professional voice actor are bound by those contracts

Now granted, we could go and voice the game ourselves, but that would mean we could not use any professional voice actors at all, so the results would be, uh, I don't know I want to see this. I mean, Sheryl probably would make a great voice for Dog, but Mike Laidlaw as Duncan and Stanley Woo as Sandal? really?

Oh, gods, no! Please don't take us back to the middle 1990s, when "voice acting" in a game actually meant "some summer intern doing his best John Rhys Davies impression"! Please, no, BioWare! We're sorry! We take it all back!

[tackaberrys]

I bought the mountain keep one and just played it yesterday. 2 and a half hours for 7 bucks is a ****ty deal.



No more DLC for me.

[Jahannam]

2 1/2 hours for 7 bucks? What a rip off..I pay more than that for a movie ticket and some arent even that long. I dont even get to take the movie with me. Fail fail fail..oh wait..

[Rainen89]

2 1/2 hours for each play through you ever do, ever. As well as interaction storyline and bonus items. That's about movie price however way you slice it. Only cheaper. Don't like it, don't buy it.

[KalDurenik]

How come people continue to mention "it stops piracy"? If i wish i could pirate the DLC and it would probably take around 40sec. And then i would not have to pay at all. And lets not forget that they dont have all the **** about needing to be loged on or sometimes the game get messed up.



DLC is here because its cheap to make and they can sell it expensive.

A expansion is alot more expensive to make because of all the new things they need to add, (features, ideas, textures etc etc). DLC is basicly the same things (or recolored) and then a short 1 hour quest. And before someone say "but they can sell features as DLC also!" Its still more expensive.



20 DLC average price of 7$ is 140$ for maybe up to 20 hours of content.

1 expansion pack for a game of this size would be 30-60$ for up to 20 hours of content (+ new features).



In the end they are doing it to make money. Nothing else nothing more.

[xcorps]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

The price for voice actors is not set by the developer, it's set by the actor's guild in negotiations with the publishers. Studios and publishers that wish to use any professional voice actor are bound by those contracts

You guys certainly got your moneys worth in this particular endeavor. Best Voice Acting Evah! Award

[xcorps]

KalDurenik wrote...

In the end they are doing it to make money. Nothing else nothing more.

I can't think of a better reason to, you know, run a business.

[VanDraegon]

lol, Georg rules.

[Georg Zoeller]

KalDurenik wrote...

In the end they are doing it to make money. Nothing else nothing more.

Yes.

[VanDraegon]

KalDurenik wrote...
In the end they are doing it to make money. Nothing else nothing more.

That is why companies are in business. Are you really so naive to think otherwise?

Modifié par VanDraegon, 22 novembre 2009 - 08:27 .

[KalDurenik]

xcorps. Yes i might not like the DLC but its not like they are asking me to sell my soul to the devil or something.. not that i belive in that anyway O.o. Anyway for a DLC to be worth it for me it would have to be 4-7$ for 5-9 hours. It dont need to be 5 hours of talk. Just make a big fat dungeon. A few secrets... Add 1000 creatures. a few chests with epic loot. A few codex notes. And then hack away

[VanDraegon]

double post

Modifié par VanDraegon, 22 novembre 2009 - 08:25 .

[Ugleb81]

I didn't read the entire thread but here is my opinion.

I've played about 20 hours worth so far (scarily) and I really am enjoying the game, but a couple of things really bug me and they aren't about the game itself.  They are both about DLC.

The first is that as soon as I opened the box I found a flyer informing me that I had two free pieces of DLC, The Stone Prisoner and the Blood Dragon Armour.  Fair enough, giving me these is an anti-piracy tool that gives me a little extra than if I had torrented the game.  Nice idea.  If also got the Wolf Charm and Memory Band through the retailer I bought it from as I pre-ordered.  Ok, whatever.

What annoyed me is that each retailer had something different, that made buying feel awkward as I was having to pick my preffered content without knowledge of the game.  I ended up going off price which made the exercise fairly pointless IMO. The retailers with the content were cheaper than those without it so it didn't really influence my choice of where to buy the game anyway.

What did annoy me was having download all this stuff before I could start to play my game.  The stone prisoner took a good half hour to download, dunno why but that was annoying.  It could have been included on the disc and simply required a code to unlock it.

More annoying however is that I am getting persistent issues with the game not recognising the content as registered when I load up.  I am forced to repeatedly exit the game and clear the download cache every time I want to play.  Hello, I am not a pirate.  So fix it already.  Plus if my net connection acts up and I cant get online then I wouldn't be able to play my single player game as the authenication would fail.  Joy.

While I dont feel obliged to buy the Wardens Keep DLC, that I do think was cynically released before launch to squeeze a little extra cash out of me, I do object to Bioware putting an NPC in my party camp to advertise the DLC to me every time I return to camp.  They just had to put it somewhere I couldn't possibly miss it and will keep going back to throughout the game. 

It is annoying to feel like I have been handed a slew of free DLC when I buy the game in order to tempt me to buy more.

I am not against DLC.  I bought three of the five DLC expansions released for Fallout 3 and enjoyed them.  But I don't like how it has been used in Dragon Age as corporate marketing.  (And to frustrate me every time I want to play with buggy authentication!)  Bethesda didn't ram it down my throat.

Edit - fail typing. :/

Modifié par Ugleb81, 22 novembre 2009 - 08:30 .

[Arsaidh]

KalDurenik wrote...

In the end they are doing it to make money. Nothing else nothing more.

Yes?

And so?

Was there a caboose on this train of thought?

[Maeag]

"Who else thinks its [bull] that you have to download more content after paying $60"



Just for the record, the way it has been done with DA:O, I do not think it is "Bull", however, this does not mean that for other games I do not think it is so.

[Osprey39]

darkblueglass wrote...

Osprey39 wrote...

Darpaek wrote...

Thanks Soda!  Finally an answer!  This has been bugging me even since I rolled up my lil city elf hottie.

Osprey39 wrote...

What do you do for a living?  Flip burgers or something?  They couldn't hire me for $20 bucks an hour, I wouldn't take the pay cut and I don't make huge money.  I just make more than that.

Personally, I think you're making assumptions about something you don't have a freaking clue about.

You know, you're a real ****.  We're all working on assumptions when we having this discussion.  I clearly outlined my reasoning, experiences, and thought-process behind my assumptions in later posts - which I'm sure you didn't bother to read before spouting derision.  No one other than you - even those with differing opinions and ideas - has been as discourteous.

You wanna know what I do for a living?  I'm a political organizer.  Last year, I worked for the ****ing President of the United States.  And you know what?  I did it for a lot less than 20/hour.  In fact, if you took my salary versus 15 hour days and 7 day weeks, I probably worked for less than minimum wage.  Don't believe me - I'll be happy to friend you on Facebook so you can see my ****ing resume and photo/video portfolio.  Now, what the **** do you do that makes you so ****ing important?

I'm in sales and like I said, I don't make big money, not even close.  I thought I made it clear that I was not trying to brag about my own salary because it's nothing to brag about.  

I was trying to make the point that saying they only budget $20/hour to something like a voice actor was a ridiculous notion and you were drawing a conclusion from that notion that has no basis in fact.  I read somewhere that they've sold over a million downloads of Warden's Keep.  With $7 million of gross revenue, I think you can afford to bring the voice actors in to record a few more lines can you not?

Finally, I'm sorry if you took offense at what I said.  It was meant more to be humorous than offensive.  

They didn't sell a million downloads.
The revenue for the DLCs is $1million. 
http://www.1up.com/d...ory?cId=3176910

I  think that they are far from profitable for $1million if you consider the infrastructure costs, production costs and you need to pay MS and Sony for console DLCs.

OK, $1 million dollars.  That's still quite a bit of revenue considering we're talking about a comparatively small piece of work next to the main game.  I wouldn't care to speculate on whether it is profitable for them other than this:  They've already announced the 2nd one and logic tells me if they were losing money on it, they wouldn't make another one.  That, and they seem pretty happy with how things have turned out when they post so I'm going to lean towards....they're making money.  I'm perfectly ok with that.  That means they'll keep making these games we love to play and that's a good thing.

[cerberus779]

CrazyKindBud wrote...

okay for everyone who thinks im just ranting... thats your opinion. im sorry but this is just an obvious ploy for the game makers to get more money out of people who play the game. its different when they release a game and due to demand for it, they release expansions... this however didnt happen like that. they knew people were going to buy the game because, ofcourse... it looks badass. Putting the DLC in there right away, to me, is like them saying "oh wait look at all this **** we made before but you dont get for 60$". chastise me all you want but its still BS wheather you want to defend bioware or not.

If you did some research DA:O was completed sometime in the spring of 2009 and was to be launched exclusively for PC at that point. EA decided to postpone the release to do a release on all platforms. This allowed the dev team to continue to work on the game as well as come out with the DLC. Had they released it as they originally planned this DLC would be out 6-9 months after release. 

In any case your whining is pointless as the DLC is not part of the main story and isn't needed to complete the game. Your rant should more likely be directed at your parents who won't let you charge another $7.50 on their credit card. If you want the DLC so bad get a part time job and work for one whole hour.

[Arsaidh]

Ugleb81 wrote...

What did annoy me was having download all this stuff before I could start to play my game.  The stone prisoner took a good half hour to download, dunno why but that was annoying.  It could have been included on the disc and simply require a code to unlock it.

No, it could not have been included on the disc. The content for The Stone Prisoner was far from complete when the game itself went gold. They threw in TSP as a freebie, rather than try to sell it to you.