394 réponses à ce sujet

[Arsaidh]

SasugaRIVAL wrote...

Arsaidh wrote...

Ugleb81 wrote...

Having marketing inserted into the game to entice you to buy more of it is wrong.

I take it you don't own a television.

Last time I checked, advertised TV was free.  I don't watch commericals on HBO that I pay a premium for.

The "Warden's Keep NPC" is the equivalent of watching Lord of the Rings theatrical cut, and in the middle of the movie it advertises that "You can watch the full version of this scene in the Extended Edition! Go to this website to purchase the extended edition!"

Movies are no different— they're crammed full of product placement, exclusive licensing deals, and other forms of advertising. Sheesh, some summer blockbusters feel like two-hour-long soft drink ads. And, of course, if you see them in the theatre, you get to sit through 20 minutes of commercials before the movie itself starts.

Bottom line: Advertising means revenue, and corporations cannot say no if it means making money. It's not because they're greedy jerks; it's because they have a legal obligation to shareholders and a moral obligation to employees to do the very best they can to turn a profit.

BioWare could have been a lot pushier about the Warden's Keep DLC; all we have is one guy who stands in your camp and says "Hey, want to help me in this quest?" There's no actual fourth-wall breaking unless you choose the "Sure, I'll help you (Download new content)" option. About the only thing that might have been nicer would be an option to say "Go away and never bother me again" to get rid of him permanently. (But then again, I bought Warden's Keep, so I guess I don't need it now.)

[AtreiyaN7]

Ridiculous. The game is complete, and you do not need the extra DLC to finish the main storyline. It's fun, additional material. Oh, well, I'm sure 60+ hours just isn't enough to constitute a "full" game, is it? From what I hear from others, it's more like 87+ hours if you really do every single thing. Uh-huh, we're not getting getting our money's worth - nope. *sarcasm* Hmm, and let me add that I'd like more content, AND I'm willing to pay for it. If you don't, you're perfectly free not to. Me, I want the game to continue for as long as possible and have more things to do.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 22 novembre 2009 - 09:36 .

[micheal001]

The DLC is just a ripp off more so when it was supposed to be apart of the game instead turned out too be extra content for extra $$$$$. Both are good reviews.



http://www.escapistm...gon-Age-Origins

[Domi-kuin]

Atleast they offer something real with their DLC, in street fighter you have to pay $$ for costumes for characters.

I think the topic maker needs to QQ somewhere else.

Not to mention that the game is quite long without the DLC anyway, which can't be said about many games that have been released (without DLC)

Modifié par Domi-kuin, 22 novembre 2009 - 09:40 .

[Arsaidh]

micheal001 wrote...

The DLC is just a ripp off more so when it was supposed to be apart of the game instead turned out too be extra content for extra $$$$$. Both are good reviews.



http://www.escapistm...gon-Age-Origins

Sorry, but Inside Gaming gets it wrong. The first DLC content was not finished when DA:O went gold.

Edit: I'm getting really zogging tired of this bafflegab about "Waaah, BW pulled content from the core game just so they could sell it to us later!" The only "pulled" content available as DLC is The Stone Prisoner, and you get that free with the game anyway (unless you buy it second-hand).

Modifié par Arsaidh, 22 novembre 2009 - 09:48 .

[xcorps]

I rather like the NPC placed in the camp to advertise. It's a well crafted advertisement, voiced well, animated, and has a story. I would have had a pretty big bee in my bonnet though if I had not been reading the forums and purchased it based on the expectations the NPC created. There should be some sort of disclaimer somewhere between his speech ending and clicking on buy points to let you know a) the price in real money and how much content you are getting. Not saying it's dishonest, but it is misleading even if unintentionally.

[Ahmenus]

2. (Intimidate ) You better buy it, if you know what's good for you.

I felt the same about the whole DLC idea too. As much as I was reluctant to pay for any additional content at first and would tell my friend who had purchased it himself he was crazy, I ended up picking it up myself. Upon buying the Wardens Keep, I found that really the only useful thing there was the bank, but it's limitless so...at least from what I can tell.

Now, I WOULD have preferred if they perhaps released a whole type of expansion later on which I would not have even fathomed complaining about but this will have to do. What I don't like however is this "point system"...Just say the content cost "this much" and be done with it. I don't need secret decoded point slang.

It is you truly who decides if the downloadable content is worth your money. For they can place prices on anything they want, but they can not force you to pay for it. I don't feel it's worth seven dollars but at the same time, look at games like World of Warcraft. They pretty much started the whole "Buy extra stuff that COULD be free in the game" trend. Look at that they charge: $25 dollars for a name change. And yet people still pay for it, and sadly I must say I have wasted hundreds of dollars playing WoW when I think about it lol. But that's another story, point is there is money to be had. Money helps the company, the company brings us games we enjoy. That's about as simple as I can justify the whole thing.

I say "could" because by saying they "should" would be insinuating everything you desire should be free and that company should appease you. Which is not going to happen sorry to say. I do say this however; Bioware is a good game company. They deliver incredible games and have put alot of effort into them. If this is the type of company they want to stay at, then I will give them seven dollars for free.

I'm sorry you are upset, especially those that can't afford the content for whatever reason or feel they are being wronged.

Modifié par Ahmenus, 22 novembre 2009 - 09:55 .

[Descedent]

pump out more dlc. im doing the other origins now but I want more dlc



and sooo ready for some community story pve mods!

[french lies]

One thing I really dislike about the gaming community in general is how it quantifies "value" as being the number of hours of gameplay divided by the asking price. I guess when you guys go out to eat you go to the restaurant that gives you the highest volume of food per dollar, and complain about being ripped off when you pay a high price for a small amount of gourmet food.

[xcorps]

Microtransactions are the future of gaming profit. There are too many examples of companies generating a reliable income for the model to NOT become standard. The hard part of the evolution will be finding the happy medium between cost and content. (value).

[Wild Maiden]

Generally I agree that the arguements along the line of "MORE CONTENT, NO!!!!" are stupid. There is a point to made, however, when things like a storage chest, which very clearly should have been part of the main game, are deliberately withheld so that consumers have to purchase more products to get what they should have gotten in the main game. I say it should be included in the main game, not only because it's an obvious thing people would expect to have that is present in nearly every other similar game, but also because it's clear Bioware didn't think of it as an after though, or create it to please people who felt it was missing, it was created at launch day but purposely kept out of the main game so they could sell it to us later, which I find somewhat shady at best.

[Osprey39]

xcorps wrote...

A lot of people will.  The task in front of the business (Bioware in this case) is to determine a price point where they maximize profits.  They could sell many downloads of DLC if it was free but they obviously wouldn't make any money that way.  They could make a ton of money per download if they charged $20 each but they likely wouldn't sell very many copies.  The magic number is somewhere in the middle and even if they find it, some people are going to think it's too expensive.  That's how demand works.

There is a difference between value and expensive. 5-7$ is certainly not expensive. Value is the correlation in what you pay for and what you get. I wouldn't pay 50$ for a broken washing machine, because I'm not going to invest any time and effort into repairing and reselling it, thus it has no value. My next door neighboor is quite willing to pay 50$ for it though, because to him it's value is 75$ on resale.

The price of the DLC is totally irrelevant to me, because I am willing to spend as much as 50$ on the game thus far.  I would pay as much for a DLC or expansion/sequal, if I knew that the amount of content justified the price.

I understand your sentiments and of course, value for your money is always a consideration.  My point was that some people will see value in the DLC at a price of say $3 and others will see value at a price perhaps as high as $20.  What the game company has to do is figure out at what price they can generate the most total revenue (number of units sold x the sell price).  Now at that price, whatever it may be other than free, they will as a matter of course price some people out of the market because they don't feel they are getting value for their money.  You simply cannot please everyone unless you give it away free.

[french lies]

micheal001 wrote...

The DLC is just a ripp off more so when it was supposed to be apart of the game instead turned out too be extra content for extra $$$$$. Both are good reviews.



http://www.escapistm...gon-Age-Origins

Yes, how dare they make money off products they've invested tens of millions of dollars into producing? Games are a luxury commodity and in no way essential to your survival, work or physical well-being, so if you don't think a product is worth the asking price then simply don't buy it.

[laek022]

Gabochido wrote...

For those of you still reading... I have a couple of questions for those willing to submit more feedback: Do you know how long you took to finish each of the main quests in the game? Do you feel that an average DLC module should be around equal what these quests take?

That's an excellent idea, I would fully support future content being similar in length to the Orzammar main quest.

[Arsaidh]

Wild Maiden wrote...

Generally I agree that the arguements along the line of "MORE CONTENT, NO!!!!" are stupid. There is a point to made, however, when things like a storage chest, which very clearly should have been part of the main game, are deliberately withheld so that consumers have to purchase more products to get what they should have gotten in the main game. I say it should be included in the main game, not only because it's an obvious thing people would expect to have that is present in nearly every other similar game, but also because it's clear Bioware didn't think of it as an after though, or create it to please people who felt it was missing, it was created at launch day but purposely kept out of the main game so they could sell it to us later, which I find somewhat shady at best.

Well good news! You can get a storage chest for free.

http://social.bioware.com/project/463/

That's a strange thing to do if they withheld it just so they can squeeze you for money...

[xcorps]

french lies wrote...

One thing I really dislike about the gaming community in general is how it quantifies "value" as being the number of hours of gameplay divided by the asking price. I guess when you guys go out to eat you go to the restaurant that gives you the highest volume of food per dollar, and complain about being ripped off when you pay a high price for a small amount of gourmet food.

I think most people realize that the number of hours must also have a certain standard of quality inherent in the production in order to be considered good. Nobody would say that 50$ for a game that has 1000 hours of play but has a bad interface, poor graphics, terrible sound, balance issues, crashes reliably, and clunky controls represents high value. On other side of the coin, people wouldn't be happy paying for a game that has flawless production quality and play, but only has 10 hours of content. The amount of content is part of the equation, and with top end games like DAO, is the generally the most variable.

[xcorps]

Gabochido wrote...



For those of you still reading... I have a couple of questions for those willing to submit more feedback: Do you know how long you took to finish each of the main quests in the game? Do you feel that an average DLC module should be around equal what these quests take?

That depends on the price. If the price of the DLC was 50$, I would expect at least 75% of the playable content in that DLC. At 8-10 hours of content, I would expect to pay 5-10$

[micheal001]

french lies wrote...

micheal001 wrote...

The DLC is just a ripp off more so when it was supposed to be apart of the game instead turned out too be extra content for extra $$$$$. Both are good reviews.



http://www.escapistm...gon-Age-Origins

Yes, how dare they make money off products they've invested tens of millions of dollars into producing? Games are a luxury commodity and in no way essential to your survival, work or physical well-being, so if you don't think a product is worth the asking price then simply don't buy it.

Isn't that the truth. Even though I am a consumer and make like the product like a game or a car with us as consumers the compainess like RA and Bioware end up like the banks...the crash. But I like what you say from this day forward I will tell everyone I know not too buy EA or Bioware products....because

if you don't think a product is worth the asking price then simply don't buy it.

[romankalik]

Ugleb81 wrote...


Having marketing inserted into the game to entice you to buy more of it is wrong.

Why? I can't say I'm a big fan of in-game advertising, but why is it "wrong"? Look around you, please, and find me a commercial product that *isn't* advertising another set of commercial products. Paperback books. Movies. TV series (24, anyone?). Comic books. Breakfast cereal.

More often than not, the products advertise other products of the same line, or from the same company, or from a sponsor. It's been a reality since advertising came along.

Why is a video game advertising more content for the same video game wrong? Sure, it's annoying, and it's there to entice people to buy DLC's. More than anything, the DLC quest-givers are there to make themselves noticed to people who aren't tracking the game forums, blogs, main sites, and Twitter. By and large, the DLC's don't seem to have much of a marketing campaign to speak of - at least nothing that costs much money to produce.

Personally, I can live with in-game advertising if it's either done in a largely non-obtrusive manner (billboards, news reels, that sort of thing), or in a manner that doesn't break game immersion that much. I think the DLC team failed a bit with the Warden's Keep quest giver, though I'll admit that it was was a well-voiced character with a backstory rather than just an in-game seller as I'd first feared.

Ugleb81 wrote...


Requiring an internet connection to authenticate your DLC every time you want play is frustrating and also wrong. 

Yes. Yes it is. This isn't a multiplayer game, after all. Note the fact that this isn't the case for DA:O, though. You have to register your game content, including the game's own serial key, exactly once. Once you do that, and the game serial and DLC codes are all tied into the same account, you have login once per DLC to authorize it.

And that's it. Once you do that, you don't need an internet account anymore. And seeing as how you needed one to download the DLC in the first place, I don't think there's any added hassle here, is there?

Is it possible that you just forgot to register the game to your Bioware account?

[Inarai]

micheal001 wrote...

french lies wrote...

micheal001 wrote...

The DLC is just a ripp off more so when it was supposed to be apart of the game instead turned out too be extra content for extra $$$$$. Both are good reviews.



http://www.escapistm...gon-Age-Origins

Yes, how dare they make money off products they've invested tens of millions of dollars into producing? Games are a luxury commodity and in no way essential to your survival, work or physical well-being, so if you don't think a product is worth the asking price then simply don't buy it.

Isn't that the truth. Even though I am a consumer and make like the product like a game or a car with us as consumers the compainess like RA and Bioware end up like the banks...the crash. But I like what you say from this day forward I will tell everyone I know not too buy EA or Bioware products....because

if you don't think a product is worth the asking price then simply don't buy it.

So your opinion is the only valid on, then?  That's not arrogant at all...

People can make up their own minds, after all.  And face it, the game is a FULL GAME.  How can yo say this amount of content isn't?  There's no logical grounding.  So wha if additional content gets produced over and above, and made available as a product?

[xcorps]

Isn't that the truth. Even though I am a consumer and make like the product like a game or a car with us as consumers the compainess like RA and Bioware end up like the banks...the crash. But I like what you say from this day forward I will tell everyone I know not too buy EA or Bioware products....because

if you don't think a product is worth the asking price then simply don't buy it.

um wut?

[romankalik]

Ugleb81 wrote...

Yes, but thats not my issue with him being in my camp.  As I haven't bought that DLC, he should not be in my game.  It is immersion breaking to have him sat there with a glowing icon above his head for a quest line I don't have access to.  When I talked to him I ended up with a text box asking me if I wanted to visit the bioware store and buy it now.

Seriously, get out of my RPG Mr Marketing Executive!

Immersion-breaking? Yes and no. The main menu is also immersion breaking. As is the quick-bar. And trust me, reloading the game after you die yet again while playing on Hard... yeah, that's immersion breaking. The Warden's Keep quest-giver is annoying, and I don't really think it's because of the "here, buy this to play" thing. That I can live with, though I'd much prefer keeping the DLC-shopping fully to the in-game Downloadable Content section of the menu.

He's a nagging twit because he's always there, on the camp map, and you can't just say "no" and let him disappear. That is going too far, as it turns him into nagware. He's always there, marked. And on the map, marked. Fleshed out NPC who has a quest that's unlockable via purchase? Sure, go ahead. But maybe, if we don't want him around, can we just turn him off until we buy the DLC? That I'd like, even if I did get Warden's Keep.

[aries1001]

As I understand you do not need the be connected to the internet (as in having your Internet Explorer browser opened when you play the game) whne playing the game, even with the DLC. You do have to log-in with your Bioware/EA account to get access to said DLC. Then you can close your Internet Explorer (if it's even required to log in into your account?) I remember a year ago in the very long thread on DRM in the old forums (just as information) we've particularly ask for any DLC and the game to be tied to our Bioware account. -sigh- Bioware listens, and does what we've been asking - and the we complain. But I forget this is - I haz Internetz - so pretty much anything you do as company or as person get scrutinized and examined - to - ehm- point of oblivion (and yes, this is a pun!)

And we've come along way from way back 10 years ago where Bioware used sprites to create BG2 graphics to the visually graphics that is (in) DA: Origins. The production costs for making a game has gone up quite a bit. In the old 10 years you could get by just selling abouty 400,000 copies of a game. Today, a game has to sell at least 1-1,5 million or millions just to break even, at least an AAA title such as DA: Origins. And during this time the devs. still have to be paid. Surprisingly, they also have to be paid after the completion of the game. Shocking, I know! And here's where DLC comes into play as it secures a steday stream of income to Bioware (and EA) that makes sure that people can get paid, can keep their jobs etc. etc.

I understand (and I feel their pain somewhat) why people would think that 5 US dollars for 1 hour DLC or 7 US dollars for maybe 2 hour DLC is way too much money to pay for this type of DLC. So be it.
Yet, people still pay like 50 or 60 US dollars for 10 hours of Uncharted 2 or maybe 10 hours of Modern Warfare 2. That's about 5-6 dollars for an hour of entertainment. My gut feeling says to me (that 5-6 dollars for an hour is just about the right amount of money for what an hour of gaming entertainment time cost to produce (make) these days. Also, people playing adventure games (like Monkey Island games or Syberia 1 or the Sherlock Holmes games) also pay like 40-50 US dollars for about 10-12 hours of gaming time. (sometimes even less!)

The point I'm slowly getting at is this: I may not like the price of the DLC of find any value in it. However, the 5 US dollars asking price for Return to Ostagar is what will cover the production costs for the DLC, provided of course that enough people buy it. And it will secure that Bioware devs. can keep their jobs so they can make more games that are as good as DA: Origins (or better).

A final thought is this:

Do you expect not to get paid when you go to work? Because this is what game developement is today. Work. Do I wish that it would be like it were 10 years ago where idealists made slogans like 'by gamers for gamers'. Yes, I do. That's just not realistic in this day, age, and market. And Bioware devs. need to pay bills, feed children, buy gas, too.

Hopefully, they're also in the business because they like making games But don't for moment think that Georg or Rob get to see any (ok, maybe a small amount of it anyway) of the 1 million US dollaas being made by selling DLC in the past week or so. As others have pointed out, there's licensing fees to Sony and Microsoft, then there's actors and actresses that need to get paid for their work, translations fees, and the EA probably takes a chunk of the money as well for supplying distribution channels, PR and the like. Any more leftover from this goes straight to Bioware's bank account, I'd guess. And maybe, just maybe if the game (and the DLC) exceeds a launch goal, the devs. from Bioware will get a bonus. (the games need to x amount of copies before this happens, though, so does the DLC, I think?)

For those interested here's how game development works: EA gives money to Bioware - a lot of money. Bioware starts making a game, then 5-7 years go buy, Bioware releases said game. Now EA wants its money back (understandably). So Bioware better makes sure the game sells at least 1.5 -2.5 million copies for EA to get their money back. This means that Bioware, as a company does not make any money for itself, untill after the sale of copy # 2 million or 2.5 million of the game. (and then some) This is very risky business, hence the selling of DLC to make up for this or to make additonal money that'll help Bioware as business to pay the bills and to keep its employees onboard. Lastly, sorry for the long post (and the somewhat lengthy rant in it) at times; this is game developer operating in a market after all. They'll need to make money to survive....

Modifié par aries1001, 22 novembre 2009 - 10:49 .

[french lies]

xcorps wrote...
I think most people realize that the number of hours must also have a certain standard of quality inherent in the production in order to be considered good. Nobody would say that 50$ for a game that has 1000 hours of play but has a bad interface, poor graphics, terrible sound, balance issues, crashes reliably, and clunky controls represents high value. On other side of the coin, people wouldn't be happy paying for a game that has flawless production quality and play, but only has 10 hours of content. The amount of content is part of the equation, and with top end games like DAO, is the generally the most variable.

The bolded part is largely irrelevant to the discussion. A game like this would represent a broken/defective product and would be the equivalent of a restaurant selling poisonous or expired food, which sidesteps the argument I was trying to make.

I find your demands unreasonable because content is not created equal across genres: For a fast-paced action game, ten hours of gameplay could represent 2-5 years of asset creation and level design. A 100-hour JRPG could be churned out for much less money in about a year or two, and according to your logic it would represent better value for money.

Sorry for going personal here, but I don't think you understand the process of creating content for modern games and have unrealistic expectations as a consumer that developers simply cannot meet without indulging in padding, tacked-on multi or lowered content standards. As a consumer I pay for an experience and not to fill up my free time, thus it makes no sense for me to quantify the value of something by how long it lasts.

[Brian Chung]

laek022 wrote...
That's an excellent idea, I would fully support future content being similar in length to the Orzammar main quest.

I think Grant and Josh died from that comment.  They did a lot of the work on it.

BRB, gonna loot their corpses.