394 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarakinoi]

>>> All this while the cost to make them has increased tenfold. <<<



The video game industry has grown each year since, and has reached the critical masses and became much more mainstream. A game would have been considered very successful for selling 50k copies in 1990, and now expectations became so great that you have to sell for ten times that, even millions of copies to be considered truly successful.



All in all I would say games are more expensive now because they generate an insane amount of profit compared to what they used to 20 years ago. Hell the video game industry surpassed even the movies industry, which says a lot about the profits being made right now.

[ChaosInc80]

Haven't read all the responses, so sorry if I repeat anything.

DLC is a pretty popular thing.  If you don't want it/can't afford it, don't use it.  It's not like this is some MMO where you get some sort of severe advantage over other players by buying the extra content.  It's an option for YOUR enjoyment.  Think about this as well, after the hours upon hours of playing, you finally get through every race/class combination.  Most games you'll shelve and let collect dust.  By having a DLC option with new content, it allows for the infinite possibility of expanding.

But, if you truly hate having to pay for DLC and consider a game "unfinished at release" when more is added, I surely hope you don't play either the Guitar Hero or Rock Band series.  Or ANY other game on PS3/XB360/Wii for that matter, since there would only be a handful that you would consider to be "complete".

/endfeedingtroll

Modifié par ChaosInc80, 22 novembre 2009 - 07:02 .

[Inarai]

Gabochido wrote...

As a developer of DA:O, I'm very proud of our work and it saddens me to read that some people believe that weeks of a full team (plus external companies for translations and voice overs, among other things) of work are not worth $7 or even $5 dollars. 

Regardless of that, it brings tears of happiness to my eyes to see everyone else respond to some of those that hate DLC by explaining exactly how it is, thanks guys!

Having said that, we still acknowledge all the feedback we get and while we can't always do something about it, rest assured that its on our minds.

Here are some examples of feedback we've had:

- If DLC is going to cost a certain amount, make it longer or charge less. This is the most common feedback. To this I'll just repeat a few things I've mentioned in other threads. Cost is a big factor. If we make a longer adventure with fully voiced cutscenes and dialogs, that means quite a lot of work AND translating all the writing to 7 languages and adding voice over for 5 of them. A fellow developer mentioned that we could make a really long expansion that just had you battling monsters with lots of hit points and running back and forth in large but empty levels, but we know very well that game length does not equal quality and we try to use our resources to balance out the best experience possible.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from on that...  Nobody wants this game's maps to turn into Dynasty Warriors, after all(I think.  Obviously, I can't speak for everyone, but I'd be shocked).  However, I think I would say it would be possible to...  Stretch things a little.  Carried too far, it gets bad.  But maybe make a few hallways longer, hide creatures in some of the extra spaces...  Some of the side-quests, like Watchguard of the Reaching in the Circle Tower, actually feel worth the time spent hunting codexes and figuring out what, exactly, needs to be done.  A couple little tricks like that can stretch content out over a longer period of time without feeling forced, artificial, or boring.

- Make bigger meatier full expansion packs. I have mentioned before that whether we do something about it or not, it takes time and resources, so you can't expect one of these immediately after launch.

...  Should I interpret that as saying such a thing MIGHT be coming down the pipe?

- DLC should be free, for example ("some older game"). Well, as has been mentioned before, we do offer free DLC for those who purchased the game (and I repeat, the DLC was finished after the game itself was finished, its not like we ripped it from the finished game) but there are specific reasons for why we were able to offer that particular DLC for free. Some people were mentioning multiplayer maps were given for free in other games, but obviously in DA:O an empty map would be quite boring and, in any case, as you guys yourselves explained, its a different type of business model. In those cases free DLC is a way to sell the game and is part of the budget for the game itself.

And those cases seem like times where the DLC is needed to actually enjoy the full game, rather than being an addon.  Something of a different case, no?

These comments are regarding the state of currently announced products. Of course, I can't comment at all on future products or how this feedback will affect them exactly just know that we do read it and take it into account.

To the OP. I'm sorry you feel that way but I hope that the many explanations in this thread help you understand what we are trying to do with DLC. Its a service to those who want to add a little something to their game, and while its a service to you guys, we still need to be able to pay for all the people involved so that we can continue adding cool stuff. And yes, its optional, but we do want you to know about it, that's why there is a guy in the game that tells you.

I can actually see what you're doing with that guy.  By putting him there, the DLC is immediately integrated into the world at large.  It doesn't feel like some isolated chunk free of any lines rooting it to the main campaign - in other words, I'd say it actually improves the quality.

For those of you still reading... I have a couple of questions for those willing to submit more feedback: Do you know how long you took to finish each of the main quests in the game? Do you feel that an average DLC module should be around equal what these quests take?

I haven't clocked how long main quests take me, however, I'd say 6-10 hours seems like an accurate time, even if it is a bit of a wide range.  If it's practical, I'd LOVE to see DLC of the same quality as the game content clocking in at that sort of time.  It comepletely alters the payoff equation, and that much extra content on a new playthrough would be HUGE.

If you guys can do it, that would be great, and I don't doubt you could probably charge a bit more - after all, at that point, you're getting to a full expansion's worth of content acumulated pretty fast.  It would also be worth consideringadding classes/specializations, and I'm sure people would pay for a new origin or two(Maybe put that Human Commoner we've heard about back in, add a surface dwarf, or an apostate mage - and on a side note, opening up Dalish for even mages would be a good idea, too.  Either one, though, would do well with some extra dialogue with Alastair, Morrigan, Wynne, etc., what with the new context and all.  The surface dwarf would be interesting in Orzammar, too).  I'm sure the origins are a lot of work, with the extra integration required, but like larger quests, you could probably charge a little more.

I'd say the main thing is making it of quality consistent with the game.  Best way to boost sales.

Of course, these are all my own opinions, however informed or uninformed they may be.  And I'm aware of the magnitude of some of those requests, as well. 

[VanDraegon]

Wow, what a unique and never seen before thread. 

OP, this rediculous nerd rage because you feel entitled to everything content wise that has to do with Dragon Age is getting pretty tiring. Releasing DLC has been the plan for this game all along. So, either ask for a raise in your allowance or just dont buy it. This argument has been rehashed a hundred times already and you will never change anyones opinions.

DLC is here to stay now. Get used to it or get a new hobby.

Gabochido wrote...

As a developer of DA:O, I'm very proud
of our work and it saddens me to read that some people believe that
weeks of a full team (plus external companies for translations and
voice overs, among other things) of work are not worth $7 or even $5
dollars. 

It is amazing how some people expect others to do work for their benefit or enjoyment at a no or a minimum cost to them. Everything is about getting stuff at the cheapest possible price, if not free. Then they **** when the quality of the items they just recieved is crap.   Quality craftsmanship and artistic skill is something that people should be happy to pay for. If you dont want to pay a fair market rate for such skilled personel, you really have no grounds to complain about your items.

Gabochido, man, i dont know how you devs deal with reading these forums. I couldnt do it. Too many trolls and haters. constructive criticism is one thing. Blatant whining, trolling and irrational hate posting is something completely else...

Gabochido wrote...
For those of you still reading... I have a
couple of questions for those willing to submit more feedback: Do you
know how long you took to finish each of the main quests in the game?
Do you feel that an average DLC module should be around equal what
these quests take?

I think i took around anywheres from 6-15 hours each doing the various main quest lines. That is a very rough quess. I felt i was taking my time progressing through them. I certainly dont expect an average DLC mod to come in that long at $10-$15.

If the Shale quest line is considered an average DLC mod, then i think it is fine. I would perfer longer. I guess perfect for me would be a 2-3 hour run at anywhere from $15-$20. I wouldnt complain about paying more though. I would happily pay $25-$35 for four or five hour content, as long as it is up to the current level of quality in voice work , cut scenes, etc,  we have seen thus far.

I havent had a lot of experience with DLC thus far but my general take on it is i would expect average DLC to be shorter than the main quest lines we saw in the game. I would expect to see a number of average DLC mods become available and then every 4-6 months a much longer indepth mod.

Modifié par VanDraegon, 22 novembre 2009 - 08:18 .

[Georg Zoeller]

It is kinda bull**** that we're not continuing to work for free after you spend 60 buck once. I mean, why should we be paid continued salary for work done after completing the product right?

And let's face it, the 50-120h you can get out of this game are a really bad $ value per hour. I mean, come one, between think of what you could get for that money? Like uh, 20 hours of an average shooter, or 6-7 hours of movies.

It is shocking that BioWare is not a charity I tell you, even before when they were called 'BioWare Corp', I really didn't think they were serious about the corp thing, but now that they belong to EA, who sell me copies of this crappy dragon whatever game for like 60 bucks, why on earth wouldn't they just take the like 120 people listed in the credits and have them work for free for a few months to get us the content we deserve.

And let's be honest - 49$ for a PC game. They used to cost that much back when the team sizes were only like 40 people and we had sprites. I would have expected the price to go down by now, basic economics dictates that the more people work on a product, and the more complex the product gets, the cheaper it has to become. Why is BioWare defying gravity and charges us the same as in 2002 for Knights of the Old Republic? Isn't that insidious?

And seriously, it's harsh that we really HAVE to download this stuff. I mean, who do they think they are, forcing us to download stuff! That should be illegal. Nobody can force me to work or eat, why do they force me to download!

And that Shale business - instead of just delaying the game for after christmas so they could put the shale content back on the disk (and in the process bring add another disk to the package, there is really not enough of those yet), they actually have the audacity to take this golem thing that they promised us was cut, shove it into a piece of downloadable content for FREE and force us to download it. I mean, seriously - any honest company would have instead left the golem cut or delayed the game until after christmas so we can have it on disk.

And man, that whole Dragon Age dedicated server business. I always knew they cut them so they could charge us for multiplayer later. Oh wait, different story

Lol.

Modifié par Georg Zoeller, 22 novembre 2009 - 07:53 .

[Rheannan]

CrazyKindBud wrote...

all im saying is the fact that there is a char in the main game promoting an expansion makes it pretty freakin obviously that its a scam. its not like they patched that char in after they already shipped out thousands of copies.

It's not a scam, it's a business model. And from what others have already said, it seems a pretty normal one at that.

What you're objecting to isn't the fact that there is optional extra content available for purchase, but rather the way this was implemented in the game.

It's a valid argument. I haven't played the game yet but I can see how they could have gone with one of two ways of doing it: either simply listing the downloadable content in the menu, or making it noticeable in the actual game itself. I'm not sure which method I'd prefer, personally, but it can't be said that it's not going to be effective to have a character in the game itself reminding you about the extra available content.

Marketing-wise, it was a smart move anyway. If it's right in front of you, you're more likely to be intrigued by it and then buy it. The interactivity of a game is what sets it apart from other forms of entertainment in what they can do with it.

PainFruit wrote...

I'm surprised by all the people complaining that the game's $60. Assuming that's USD, and with a little
side-trip to google, that makes it roughly $65 Australian.

Wanna know how much the standard edition is in a standard Australian shop (like EB, for example)?
$110. Which is why I now have a huge download plan and Steam.

I was going to mention prices. There's always going to be someone, somewhere, paying more for it than a person who is complaining about games being too expensive at only $60.

addiction21 wrote...

Ya I have heard and know about the aussies pain in this department.  Saw first hand when visiting family, but as I understood it that has a lot to do with the goverment and some taxe or something.

As far as I'm aware, the higher prices here are simply because they can. Microsoft products such as Windows and Office are generally several hundred dollars more expensive here (this is, of course, taking exchange rates into account).

This is why I buy games and other software from overseas, because I don't believe there is actually any reasoning behind the price increase.

Modifié par Rheannan, 22 novembre 2009 - 07:51 .

[recon4115]

wow wat an ass you are bioware employe

[T-Swen]

what the hell...mine came with codes...free dlc

[Rheannan]

recon4115 wrote...

wow wat an ass you are bioware employe

And I suppose you feel that someone attacking a BioWare employee is perfectly justified.

Modifié par Rheannan, 22 novembre 2009 - 08:02 .

[Mordaedil]

recon4115 wrote...

wow wat an ass you are bioware employe

At least you can't say they aren't responding.

I can't really comment on the DLC since I am only half-way through it at the moment.

We'll see, but I feel Bioware always comes through. Sure, sometimes the DLC is going to be kinda short, but so was Witch's Wake and Shadowguard for NWN. I suspect later DLC will have more in common with Pirates of the Sword Coast, Wyvern's Crown and Kingmaker.

Just give it time.

[delra123]

They will quickly realize disappointment = more piracy.

[Georg Zoeller]

Actually no.
I'm an ass if I would point out two spelling mistakes in 7 words and suggest firefox for it cometh with the awesomeness of spellchecking.

When I'm casting 'drown in sarcasm', I'm actually being nice.

Lesson #2 seeker, when barking at a wolf, expect to be bitten


Nobody has ruled out full fledged expansion packs or anything, but it would be foolish to rush into anything without first evaluating the overall success of the game, the features people liked, etc.

recon4115 wrote...

wow wat an ass you are bioware employe

Modifié par Georg Zoeller, 22 novembre 2009 - 08:08 .

[ScreamerDK]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

It is kinda bull**** that we're not continuing to work for free after you spend 60 buck once. I mean, why should we be paid continued salary for work done after completing the product right?

And let's face it, the 50-120h you can get out of this game are a really bad $ value per hour. I mean, come one, between think of what you could get for that money? Like uh, 20 hours of an average shooter, or 6-7 hours of movies.

It is shocking that BioWare is not a charity I tell you, even before when they were called 'BioWare Corp', I really didn't think they were serious about the corp thing, but now that they belong to EA, who sell me copies of this crappy dragon whatever game for like 60 bucks, why on earth wouldn't they just take the like 120 people listed in the credits and have them work for free for a few months to get us the content we deserve.

And let's be honest - 49$ for a PC game. They used to cost that much back when the team sizes were only like 40 people and we had sprites. I would have expected the price to go down by now, basic economics dictates that the more people work on a product, and the more complex the product gets, the cheaper it has to become. Why is BioWare defying gravity and charges us the same as in 2002 for Knights of the Old Republic? Isn't that insidious?

And seriously, it's harsh that we really HAVE to download this stuff. I mean, who do they think they are, forcing us to download stuff! That should be illegal. Nobody can force me to work or eat, why do they force me to download!

And that Shale business - instead of just delaying the game for after christmas so they could put the shale content back on the disk (and in the process bring add another disk to the package, there is really not enough of those yet), they actually have the audacity to take this golem thing that they promised us was cut, shove it into a piece of downloadable content for FREE and force us to download it. I mean, seriously - any honest company would have instead left the golem cut or delayed the game until after christmas so we can have it on disk.

And man, that whole Dragon Age dedicated server business. I always knew they cut them so they could charge us for multiplayer later. Oh wait, different story

Lol.

Now that was funny, when will people realize that DLC basically constitutes the future of gaming, on another note say goodbye to dedicated servers, in 5 years they will be gone.

[VanDraegon]

recon4115 wrote...

wow wat an ass you are bioware employe

Just how much crap from trolls are they expexcted to put up with?

[Xaltar81]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

It is kinda bull**** that we're not continuing to work for free after you spend 60 buck once. I mean, why should we be paid continued salary for work done after completing the product right?

And let's face it, the 50-120h you can get out of this game are a really bad $ value per hour. I mean, come one, between think of what you could get for that money? Like uh, 20 hours of an average shooter, or 6-7 hours of movies.

It is shocking that BioWare is not a charity I tell you, even before when they were called 'BioWare Corp', I really didn't think they were serious about the corp thing, but now that they belong to EA, who sell me copies of this crappy dragon whatever game for like 60 bucks, why on earth wouldn't they just take the like 120 people listed in the credits and have them work for free for a few months to get us the content we deserve.

And let's be honest - 49$ for a PC game. They used to cost that much back when the team sizes were only like 40 people and we had sprites. I would have expected the price to go down by now, basic economics dictates that the more people work on a product, and the more complex the product gets, the cheaper it has to become. Why is BioWare defying gravity and charges us the same as in 2002 for Knights of the Old Republic? Isn't that insidious?

And seriously, it's harsh that we really HAVE to download this stuff. I mean, who do they think they are, forcing us to download stuff! That should be illegal. Nobody can force me to work or eat, why do they force me to download!

And that Shale business - instead of just delaying the game for after christmas so they could put the shale content back on the disk (and in the process bring add another disk to the package, there is really not enough of those yet), they actually have the audacity to take this golem thing that they promised us was cut, shove it into a piece of downloadable content for FREE and force us to download it. I mean, seriously - any honest company would have instead left the golem cut or delayed the game until after christmas so we can have it on disk.

And man, that whole Dragon Age dedicated server business. I always knew they cut them so they could charge us for multiplayer later. Oh wait, different story

Lol.

AWESOME response

So many people think that making games is as simple as one guy having awesome software with a neat button that you click titled "make awesome game". People fail to realise how long it takes and how many people are involved in such a large scale project.

Ofcoarse, all the voice tallent gave of their time free and the work that went into the engine, art and AI all took a couple of hours and was free cuz you are an awesome dev company. Gotta love the ignorance. Anyone with even the slightest knowledge of developing games and or large scale mods can see just how much work went into this. The dialogue trees alone probably took months of work if not more given rewrites and such.

Those #1ching about having to pay for DLC, get over yourselves already. If you don't want to give money to the guys who have entertained you for at LEAST 30 hours, maybe 20 if you are a moron, then don't buy them.

Georg Zoeller is the man

[Keldon Northwind]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

It is kinda bull**** that we're not continuing to work for free after you spend 60 buck once. I mean, why should we be paid continued salary for work done after completing the product right?

And let's face it, the 50-120h you can get out of this game are a really bad $ value per hour. I mean, come one, between think of what you could get for that money? Like uh, 20 hours of an average shooter, or 6-7 hours of movies.

It is shocking that BioWare is not a charity I tell you, even before when they were called 'BioWare Corp', I really didn't think they were serious about the corp thing, but now that they belong to EA, who sell me copies of this crappy dragon whatever game for like 60 bucks, why on earth wouldn't they just take the like 120 people listed in the credits and have them work for free for a few months to get us the content we deserve.

And let's be honest - 49$ for a PC game. They used to cost that much back when the team sizes were only like 40 people and we had sprites. I would have expected the price to go down by now, basic economics dictates that the more people work on a product, and the more complex the product gets, the cheaper it has to become. Why is BioWare defying gravity and charges us the same as in 2002 for Knights of the Old Republic? Isn't that insidious?

And seriously, it's harsh that we really HAVE to download this stuff. I mean, who do they think they are, forcing us to download stuff! That should be illegal. Nobody can force me to work or eat, why do they force me to download!

And that Shale business - instead of just delaying the game for after christmas so they could put the shale content back on the disk (and in the process bring add another disk to the package, there is really not enough of those yet), they actually have the audacity to take this golem thing that they promised us was cut, shove it into a piece of downloadable content for FREE and force us to download it. I mean, seriously - any honest company would have instead left the golem cut or delayed the game until after christmas so we can have it on disk.

And man, that whole Dragon Age dedicated server business. I always knew they cut them so they could charge us for multiplayer later. Oh wait, different story

Lol.

Best. Post. Ever.

[marlowwe]

Georg Zoeller wrote...
Nobody has ruled out full fledged expansion packs or anything, but it would be foolish to rush into anything without first evaluating the overall success of the game, the features people liked, etc.

I don't remember you having this discussion with the community regarding DLC. Would've been nice if, either now or a few years ago you said:

"Nobody has ruled out full fledged pay-to-play DLC or anything, but it
would be foolish to rush into anything without first evaluating the
overall success of the game, the features people liked, etc."

It seems DLC is a given for you and there's not even a need to discuss it.

Regardless of my stance on DLC, I appreciate your responses in this thread (well, maybe not the last one )

Modifié par marlowwe, 22 novembre 2009 - 08:39 .

[rpgplayer1]

For those of you still reading... I have a couple of questions for those willing to submit more feedback: Do you know how long you took to finish each of the main quests in the game? Do you feel that an average DLC module should be around equal what these quests take?

I would gladly pay 10$ for DLC that is as long as one of the main quests in the game (you know, those that can be solved in different order, not to spoil to anyone).

Logic for 10$ price:
There is around 5-6 similar quest in game itself (60$). Add to that origins (20$), beggining and the end questlines (20$), sidequests (10$), and you would get total of around 100-120$ if whole game was priced that way. Which is OK, since DLC will always be more expensive then proportionaly for content they give compared to full game.

[Inarai]

marlowwe wrote...

Georg Zoeller wrote...
Nobody has ruled out full fledged expansion packs or anything, but it would be foolish to rush into anything without first evaluating the overall success of the game, the features people liked, etc.

I don't remember you having this discussion with the community regarding DLC. Would've been nice if, either now or a few years ago you said:

"Nobody has ruled out full fledged pay-to-play DLC or anything, but it
would be foolish to rush into anything without first evaluating the
overall success of the game, the features people liked, etc."

It seems DLC is a given for you and there's not even a need to discuss it.

Regardless of my stance on DLC, I appreciate your responses in this thread (well, maybe not the last one )

Well, realistically, DLC is a lower risk model, so you CAN try having something out as soon as possible, which might wind up being right of of the gate, and evaluate interest and community opinion first.

I do agree that it's great that they're actually reaching out to the community like this.

Modifié par Inarai, 22 novembre 2009 - 08:48 .

[Mordaedil]

marlowwe wrote...

Georg Zoeller wrote...
Nobody has ruled out full fledged expansion packs or anything, but it would be foolish to rush into anything without first evaluating the overall success of the game, the features people liked, etc.

I don't remember you having this discussion with the community regarding DLC. Would've been nice if, either now or a few years ago you said:

"Nobody has ruled out full fledged pay-to-play DLC or anything, but it
would be foolish to rush into anything without first evaluating the
overall success of the game, the features people liked, etc."

It seems DLC is a given for you and there's not even a need to discuss it.

Regardless of my stance on DLC, I appreciate your responses in this thread (well, maybe not the last one )

They did a year ago. The community was very receptive of the idea of DLC.

[Realmjumper]

I think people are getting upset because they wanted it included with the game. So what is Bioware to do to fix this mess. The answer will come from the clever dwarf on th eleft.



No more day one DLC. Instead release it a week after and if anyone asks just say it was no to be released at launch but post launch. That might make people think it was made after the core game was done.



Right now the impression people have is that Bioware created content then put it aside as DLC. See people think it was in the original game but that you took it out to make more money.



As stated this is simply not true since it costs money to pay the voice actors and workers to develop said content after the core game was done.



So in conclusion delaying the DLC might work to ease the tension but some people will never be pleased. Plus why punish people who are willing to pay for the DLC day 1.



ALso there are deals out there to be had. For example on Ebay I found my copy for 30 bucks which included all the DLC .



Also on regular stores the PC version at Gamestop is only 40$

[marlowwe]

Inarai wrote...

marlowwe wrote...

Georg Zoeller wrote...
Nobody has ruled out full fledged expansion packs or anything, but it would be foolish to rush into anything without first evaluating the overall success of the game, the features people liked, etc.

I don't remember you having this discussion with the community regarding DLC. Would've been nice if, either now or a few years ago you said:

"Nobody has ruled out full fledged pay-to-play DLC or anything, but it
would be foolish to rush into anything without first evaluating the
overall success of the game, the features people liked, etc."

It seems DLC is a given for you and there's not even a need to discuss it.

Regardless of my stance on DLC, I appreciate your responses in this thread (well, maybe not the last one )

Well, realistically, DLC is a lower risk model, so you CAN try having something out as soon as possible, which might wind up being right of of the gate, and evaluate interest and community opinion first.

I do agree that it's great that they're actually reaching out to the community like this.

I disagree with you. I would imagine a lot of costly infrastructure goes into the DLC model so you can't just "try it". In any case judging from Bioware's responses to this issue it looks like they have had the infrastructure in place for a while and they probably won't dismantle it.