51 réponses à ce sujet

[Ishad Nha]

Circle of Eight is a good site. I will have to find time for TEE at some point, but it won't be anytime soon.

[Pipboy3billion]

It is only minor access for Rangers.
Paladins are the guys who have the four spell levels. Four levels is neither minor access nor major access, it is of course a holdover from First Edition where there were no spheres and no access.

Crap. Now I feel like my Cleric/Ranger is a lie. I figured he would be a good fit with my core party of Immy, Minsc, and Jah. A vanilla cleric might work (kitted in BG2), but I find sole clerics to be rather dull. Not to mention, a cleric and druid (romance) would be a bit weird. Maybe a Ranger turned Stalker in BG2 would be more interesting, but then I'd have to take a cleric (Viconia), though I'd consider romancing her instead. I'd like to stick to a four person core party, though. I'll have to think about it.

[Ishad Nha]

Yes, a Cleric/Ranger who can cast any Cleric/Druid spell is a lie. The pnp variant was pretty boring, so Black Isle spiced him up a bit.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Why not go for rogue? Rogues would romance anything that's available, right?

[Ishad Nha]

This is why they spiced up the Ranger spell list. Here are the pen and paper Ranger spells that are available in BG2 for the Ranger:

Level 1
Entangle
Shillelagh
Level 2
Barkskin
Goodberry
Charm Person Or Mammal
Level 3
Hold Animal
Summon Insects

Modifié par Ishad Nha, 13 septembre 2011 - 01:08 .

[Pipboy3billion]

Why not go for rogue? Rogues would romance anything that's available, right?

I've considered a swash, but I'll have Immy, and that's more than enough of a Rogue, right?

This is why they spiced up the Ranger spell list. Here are the pen and paper Ranger spells that are available in BG2 for the Ranger:

Wow, that's pretty weak. I can see why they spiced them up. Still, now that I know the rules, it is pretty cheesy having the full list.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

I didn't even specify thief, but even then there is a whole world of trap setting and backstabbing etc that you will miss with just Imoen.
There is also the Bard kit Blade of course. Yes, you'd have access to evil bad magics, but mostly for protective purposes - while wading into the hordes of enemies swinging little blades with deadly precision - all for the sake of glory; and looking good in tights.

[Pipboy3billion]

Yeah, I was was thinking of doing a Bard (Blade), though I don't see how they can be strong frontliners. Sure, you get a few buffs, but with pretty crappy Thac0, you kinda need them. Not to mention, generally only getting one attack per round (unless you dual-wield), I mean, I'm sure I'm wrong in all this, but I just don't know how to use one effectively.

Otherwise, I think a Bard would be a good complement to a canon party, which is pretty well rounded w/o the protagonist.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Even in SoA, a blade can reach 9 APR without problems. Belm, Kundane, Improved Haste, Offensive Spin. All for maximum damage. Your THAC0 isn't all that bad either.

[AnonymousHero]

Add in Spirit Armor, Stoneskins, Mirror Images, Spell Immunity, high-level Remove Magic, etc. etc. and you have the "tank" side covered as well.

[Pipboy3billion]

Isn't a Blade's THAC0 10 points behind a fighter the same level by level 20? That seems like a big gap.

Add in Spirit Armor, Stoneskins, Mirror Images, Spell Immunity, high-level Remove Magic, etc. etc. and you have the "tank" side covered as well.

With buffs, they definitely have a good defense. But, other than using Tenser's (which disables spellcasting), I don't see how they can be great damage dealers.

I'm also considering a plain F/C, probably gnome (I dig the LPs), but with that mod that removes race restrictions for romances. I've got a good Tas portrait that would work for him, too. That should be solidly cheese free. This way, I can stick with the four person party for BG2 and have my cleric bases solidly covered.

Too bad paladins have to be LG. If it weren't for that, I'd probably want to play one.

[polytope]

Pipboy3billion wrote...

Isn't a Blade's THAC0 10 points behind a fighter the same level by level 20? That seems like a big gap.

...

With buffs, they definitely have a good defense. But, other than using Tenser's (which disables spellcasting), I don't see how they can be great damage dealers.

A blade's damage output is okay, considering the +2 damage bonus from offensive spin and maximum damage per hit (averages to +3.5 with a longsword), it's comparable damage per hit to a fighter with grand mastery - although they lag behind in number of attacks unless you exploit belm.

The blade's THAC0 is mainly an issue at low levels (it takes a while to get this class of the ground) - in the late game, with weapons granting a high THAC0 bonus it should be okay.

I.e. a 21st level blade with Crom Fayer, pale green Ioun stone and gauntlets of weapon skill with spin active will have an adjusted THAC0 of -6. which is low enough to hit most creatures consistently.

[Ishad Nha]

"Too bad paladins have to be LG. If it weren't for that, I'd probably want to play one."
It may be a hassle if you want the PC to dual-class to a Druid, but there is no great problem otherwise. In BG2 alignment is fairly loosely applied in actual practice. I never found playing a Paladin to be too restrictive..

[Pipboy3billion]

A blade's damage output is okay, considering the +2 damage bonus from offensive spin and maximum damage per hit (averages to +3.5 with a longsword), it's comparable damage per hit to a fighter with grand mastery

A blade's THAC0 advances at half that of a fighter, who can use the same boosting gear (and better armor). The spin is great, but is seems like all it really does is let the blade kinda catch up to a fighter, and that has limited uses per day.

I would think that the Blade falls further behind the fighter (or F/M) as the game progresses as the more they both level, the larger the THAC0 gap gets. In other words, at level 2, there's only a 1 point difference in THAC0. At level 20, that difference increases to 10 points.

It may be a hassle if you want the PC to dual-class to a Druid, but there is no great problem otherwise.

Mechanically, alignment is almost irrelevant. RP-wise, it does matter.

[polytope]

Pipboy3billion wrote...

A blade's THAC0 advances at half that of a fighter, who can use the same boosting gear (and better armor). The spin is great, but is seems like all it really does is let the blade kinda catch up to a fighter, and that has limited uses per day.

The fighter can wear better armor, but the blade can achieve a better AC. Even straight out of the opening dungeon a blade can have an AC of -16 when using defensive spin (spirit armor sets AC to 1, sub 4 from dex, 3 from blur, 10 from spin). Although, since defensive spin immobilizes your character it can be awkward if enemies switch targets.

About the "boosting gear", I'd suggest giving it to the character who can get the most use out of it - for instance Korgan could use Crom Fayer, but being a single classed berserker, he already has an excellent THAC0, so it's somewhat redundant. Then again, for style reasons you might prefer a blade to not use a bulky hammer.

Pipboy3billion wrote...
I would think that the Blade falls further behind the fighter (or F/M) as the game progresses as the more they both level, the larger the THAC0 gap gets. In other words, at level 2, there's only a 1 point difference in THAC0. At level 20, that difference increases to 10 points.

The blade's poor base THAC0 is more of a drawback in the early game, since the party's THAC0 keeps decreasing as the game progresses but enemy AC doesn't keep pace, a high level blade with THAC0 of -6 (or whatever) isn't much worse off than a fighter with a THAC0 of -16, as both of them can consistently land hits. Very few creatures in the unmodded game have an AC below -12. 

It's true that a blade isn't as powerful as a fighter/mage, but then again, no class is. F/M's are actually overpowered enough to spoil the fun of the game (imo, anyway).

Modifié par polytope, 15 septembre 2011 - 06:33 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Blades have 6 levels of arcane magic. They are therefore by default stronger than pure fighters.
Yes, their damage output is not quite on par. A high level fighter can pick up Crom Faeyr and get 10 APR at the same time for easily 300 and more points of damage total in one round. Still, the blade is able to deal over 200 points of damage in one round (enough to kill just about anything without resistances) while at the same time being protected against whatever the enemy produces. They have access to most of the best HLAs in the game (though I have a feeling you may choose to ignore some of the better ones for RP reasons) and they are able to use any weapon that the situation calls for (though with their APR, there is no "quickly" switching to Carsomyr for dispelling purposes - it'll take them a while) but they are usually best when using weapons that give additional attacks per round.

But mostly (IMO) they are fun to play.

[jaxsbudgie]

Just play a Blade. Your party setup sounds like it needs another acrane spellcaster. Maybe not even a Blade, maybe a Skald? I've played both and they vary somewhat, Skalds are more back line of defence whilst Blades are up front in the thick of it. You'll come across and abundance of wands and scrolls, too much for Imoen alone to cast/use. I know you don't like modding (or was that someone else?) but I'd be tempted to make Jaheria a pure Totemic Druid. Might make your party setup a bit more solid, balancing out your arcane and divine input.


Relating back to the 2e and 3e debate I can understand where Pipboy is coming from. 3e sort of strips back personality and character qwirks in replace for rigid ability scores and more efficient 'players'. Although I actually prefer the changes on 3e, I still find something about 2e endearing.
I remember reading on the NWN forums where people would describe these ridiculous builds that all seemed to include at least one level is both Bard and Barbarian. What's the bloody point? You may be able to beat every single fight in the game but is that really good fun?
When I used to play 3e pnp I played a Thief ... sorry Rogue/Fighter and then ventured into the prestige class Lasher. A person who was incredibly adapt with the whip or whip dagger. My character was a combination of brilliance and ueslessness. But it was incredibly fun to play! I could eventually use my whip to swing across chasms Indiana Jones style and open doors from afar. No power gaming there ... I miss those days.

[jaxsbudgie]

And then of course we changed over to 3.5e mid way through our campaign which totally ruined my Rogue/Fighter/Lasher when one of the changes turned the whip from a ranged weapon into a melee weapon. Ugh.

[Pipboy3billion]

Even straight out of the opening dungeon a blade can have an AC of -16 when using defensive spin...

Just play a Blade. Your party setup sounds like it needs another acrane spellcaster

That's actually one of the main things not selling me on the blade, its dependency on spins (with limited uses per day) to be effective.

I'm basically deciding between a half-elf Blade (and adding Viconia for a cleric) and a gnome F/C (leaving Viconia out). It seems to me that the Blade is a lot more dependent on buffing than the F/C. I don't really intend to use a lot of arcane casting. The only use is for buffing my party and countering mages. With all the magical protections/resistances in the game, it's just tedious (to me) to use a spellcaster offensively.

I actually want to like the Blade (or any Bard) more than the F/C, if only for the stronghold. However, I have a thing about keeping the protagonist on the front line and first into battle, racking up the majority of kills. Playing cheese-free, The F/C just seems more durable and effective (especially once the buffs run out). and by cheese-free, I mean no PI or Sim abuse. I would allow UAI with a Blade/Bard, only because 2e had a similar rule.

Then again, I probably just don't know how to play a Blade.

Blades have 6 levels of arcane magic. They are therefore by default stronger than pure fighters.

Pure fighters, sure. But what about a F/C?

When I used to play 3e pnp I played a Thief ... sorry Rogue/Fighter and then ventured into the prestige class Lasher. A person who was incredibly adapt with the whip or whip dagger.

One of my favs was something similar. A Dex-oriented fighter that used a spike chain with Combat Expertise and Improved Trip/Disarm. It made combat very interesting. However, the DM believed that fighters should be the typical sword wielding conan-types, so after a couple sessions he had the character swarmed by a bunch of wererats who were apparently trip/disarm immune. I'm sure the CR on this far exceeded that of my level 3ish fighter. He did something similar to my previous character, a Halfling spear-wielding druid mounted on a riding dog for an animal companion. I was a little inspired by Didymus from "Labyrinth". Charge attacks were fun with this one. However, the DM decided to kill the dog. What a guy...

I miss 2e. System quirks aside, I had a much better DM in those days.

Modifié par Pipboy3billion, 15 septembre 2011 - 05:00 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Pipboy3billion wrote...

Blades have 6 levels of arcane magic. They are therefore by default stronger than pure fighters.

Pure fighters, sure. But what about a F/C?

You are right of course that you want your blade buffed. The difference between invulnerability + few HP and good AC + few HP is enormous. The difference between Improved Haste + Offensive Spin and no buffs is even bigger.
But if you are going to accept this need for buffs, then it actually becomes of the blade's advantages. Sure, the FC (like the pure fighter) will deal more weapon damage (strength 25, maximum damage per hit, chance of slow on hit (no save, no MR, no SI), up to 10 APR (with GWW), good HP and nice resistances (up to 65% resistance against weapon damage). But the blade gets invulnerability, trap and still good damage.
(in a prebuffed melee duel the blade would need about 2-3 rounds to put the FC down without taking any damage himself)
The buffs of the blade benefit from his fast leveling, so they'll usually last longer than the buffs of other characters (but I don't need to tell you that).

Whether or not the blade is an effective melee monster depends on your willingness to buff up before every real battle.

[Pipboy3billion]

(in a prebuffed melee duel the blade would need about 2-3 rounds to put the FC down without taking any damage himself)

Maybe if the F/C just stood there. I don't think it would be that quick of a fight, taking all non-cheese tactics into consideration. It would play out pretty differently (depending on power level). Of course, the blade could just use a Time Stop scroll and unload, but that's a one shot deal leaving him holding the bag for the other 99.9% of the game.

First, I don't see what makes the blade invulnerable. Stoneskins? Defensive spin? Neither will help against blade barrier (8d8 if save failed) or energy blades (up to 9d10/round). But while the blade is casting improved haste and tenser's, the F/C is casting sanctuary to wait it out. And, the F/C gets more sanctuaries than the blade gets IH and TTs. After that, the F/C can throw up a regen and jump into the fray. Is the offensive spin going to get through AoF, Hardiness, and DoE (which is up to 80%, I believe), assuming he hits having a THAC0 of -6 vs. an AC of -15ish (good gear, DoE, DuHM, etc.)? Though, the blade might also want to think about what to do about the Deva about to throw some MM, FA, or chaos his way. And while the blade is dealing with that, the F/C also just gated in a demon.

Without using any special abilities or spells, the F/C definitely comes out ahead. However, both really shine when they buff (no pun intended), and both need to prep for a fight. Unless I'm wrong, the biggest advantage the blade consistently has available is the offensive spin, stoneskins, and imp. haste. When it comes to Blade buffs, vs. cleric buffs, I think it would be a pretty fair fight, though the F/C might have an edge on defense, so he can draw out the fight and wear down the blade.

I don't know if a duel is a good example though. If it's just a single fight, both sides are pulling out all the stops. With the game, it's more about consistency and endurance. I can see a blade having to rest after every couple of fights or so to get his buffs back (kinda cheesy, IMO), but a cleric has about twice the spell power and can probably last twice as long. Actually, if you consider all the minor fights where neither is likely to waste any buffs/specials, the F/C can probably last longer, being more effective in a straight fight (better THAC0 and AC for the F/C).

Modifié par Pipboy3billion, 15 septembre 2011 - 07:23 .

[AnonymousHero]

Pipboy3billion wrote...
First, I don't see what makes the blade invulnerable. Stoneskins? Defensive spin? Neither will help against blade barrier (8d8 if
save failed)

Duel discussions are generally, uninteresting. That said...

Stoneskins, PfMW, Mirror Images(*), Spirit Armor (better saves), Improved Invisibility (+4 all saves). (*) I haven't tested, but extrapolating from other knowledge of engine behavior, I'm guessing MI will absorb hits from BB or GoB.

EDIT: Oh, and Remove Magic will strip a F/C of BB or GoB in the blink of an eye. It's one of the few spells that is uncapped... and thus casts at level 40 for a capped Blade. For them, it's actually one of the best offensive and defensive spells.

Besides: A blade can cast SI:A, SI:D, II and be completely impervious to non-AoE spellcasting from any opponent for 20 rounds.

Pipboy3billion wrote...
or energy blades (up to 9d10/round).

Arcane magic below L6 grants immunity to elecricity. EDIT: and again: Remove Magic will dispel those blades.

But while the blade is casting improved haste and tenser's, the F/C is casting sanctuary to wait it out.

Ignore Tenser's. It's a dead end; unless special circumstances demand something else, Blades should be wearing the RoV and thus be able to cast (most) spells instantly.

And, the F/C gets more sanctuaries than the blade gets IH and TTs.

IH lasts 20 rounds. TT is irrelevant. TS destroys Sanctuary (I believe?), if not Remove Magic probably will.

(and I got bored about here.)

Seriously, just try a Blade. Try to play solo and minimal reload to train yourself to use all the Blade buffs to their fullest and you'll see the light. (The light being: Arcane magic rules supreme. Even if it's only up to level 6.)

Modifié par AnonymousHero, 15 septembre 2011 - 08:08 .

[jaxsbudgie]

Pipboy3billion wrote...

One of my favs was something similar. A Dex-oriented fighter that used a spike chain with Combat Expertise and Improved Trip/Disarm. It made combat very interesting. However, the DM believed that fighters should be the typical sword wielding conan-types, so after a couple sessions he had the character swarmed by a bunch of wererats who were apparently trip/disarm immune. I'm sure the CR on this far exceeded that of my level 3ish fighter. He did something similar to my previous character, a Halfling spear-wielding druid mounted on a riding dog for an animal companion. I was a little inspired by Didymus from "Labyrinth". Charge attacks were fun with this one. However, the DM decided to kill the dog. What a guy...

I miss 2e. System quirks aside, I had a much better DM in those days.

Yeah I thought about the spike chain too, it just seemed different to anything anyone else in my party were considering, which was run of the mill bows and swords. DMs can be ****es, it's true, I know they have to remain partial but mine specifially ruled out all merchants in one city from selling whips because he deemed that they wouln't stock them. That, at the fact that he would award his brother (who was 28 at the time) xp for even remembering that he was a bloody Druid!
I once pushed him over a waterfall (the Druid not my Dm, haha) and as he plummeted to his death we all had to remind him he could shapechange into a bird (I had actually forgotten this myself, I just wanted him to die).


Back the the post in question. Maybe not a Blade since they require a lot of attention, how about a Skald? They're great back line defense, give him a bow and he should be fine so long as Minsc and Jaheira are directing all the attention away from you. And even if they can't, you still have stoneskin, mirror image, multiple shields, invisibility, haste and other various spells to go toe to toe with. The great this about Bards in my opinion is their levelling up rate, meaning some of their spells will be way ahead of any pure Mage you have on your team. Their song is great too (provided you have the Rogue Rebalancing mod), more useful in SoA than ToB though, but still good. The one thing that annoyed me a little about the Blade is his song, well when I played one I don't think I ever touched it, I was too busy buffing and doing all sorts of spins and what not I actually forgot I was playing a Bard.

To save you the trouble, here is how the Rogue Rebalancing mod changes the Skald:

Skald -


Skalds
now have a +1 penalty to the casting speed of all spells as an
additional
disadvantage. Their battlesong has been slightly revised as well. The updated kit description reads as follows:


SKALD: This Nordic bard is also a warrior of great strength, skill
and virtue. His songs are inspiring sagas of battle and valor, and the
Skald devotes his life to those pursuits. Skalds are honored and
respected as great warrior-poets who memorize the feats of each raid
and battle, setting them down in the form of poetry. Spells are nearly
unknown in the Skald's society and they are viewed with suspicion in
any event. Using magic is slightly more difficult for a Skald and
requires additional time and effort.

Advantages:
-  Gains Skald's Song at first level. This ability further improves at 9th and 18th level
-  Gains a +1 bonus to hit and damage with all weapons at first level

Disadvantages:
-  Pick pockets ability one-quarter normal
-  Suffers a 1 point penalty to spellcasting speed

Skald's Song:
Bychanting a war song, a Skald can inspire allies as they go forward into
combat. Chanting can elevate spirits, remove concerns about danger,
keep men's minds focused on combat and fill friendly forces with a
sense of being larger than life. The effects of the song further
improve as the Skald gains more levels:

1st:  gives allies +2 to hit, +2 to damage, -2 to AC and immunity to Fear
9th:  gives allies +3 to hit, +3 to damage, -3 to AC, immunity to Fear and Confusion
18th: gives allies +4 to hit, +4 to damage, -4 to AC, immunity to Fear, Stun and Confusion.

HLA:

Enhanced Skald Song (Skald only)


This mighty battle chant grants the Skald and his allies +5 to hit,
+5 to damage, -5 to AC, +10% resistance to physical damage, immunity to
Fear, Stun and Confusion. The Skald himself receives a 10 point bonus
to his armor class while singing the song.




Edit: rereading this makes me REALLY want to play a Skald again, although this time with a melee heavy party, that would be brilliant! Does anyone know if Skald songs stack? So if there were two Skalds singing simultaneously?

Modifié par jaxsbudgie, 15 septembre 2011 - 11:08 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Pipboy3billion wrote...
First, I don't see what makes the blade invulnerable. Stoneskins? Defensive spin? Neither will help against blade barrier (8d8 if save failed) or energy blades (up to 9d10/round).

High level protagonists don't fail their saves. Another point where the game is cheating. If your saves are negative and you roll a 1, you will make your save.
Most of a cleric's protections can be taken down by Breach, those that can't can be taken down by Remove Magic. A cleric on the other hand has little to no ways of removing the protections of an arcane caster.
(also, I specifically said prebuffed, which means that I don't need to cast any more spells at the beginning of the combat. Unbuffed there are so many variables to observe that it's difficult to determine how the battle would develop (though the blade would likely win).

jaxsbudgie wrote...
Back the the post in question. Maybe not a Blade since they require a lot of attention, how about a Skald?

Just remember that without any mods, with >3M XP, the skald is just a weaker version of the blade. They have the same song, but the blade also has Offensive and Defensive Spin.

[Pipboy3billion]

Oh, and Remove Magic will strip a F/C of BB or GoB in the blink of an eye.

Ok, I'll give you that one. Not just in having faster (actually, fastest) leveling, but also being single class makes the Blade's DM/RM totally boss (next to an Inquisitor).

High level protagonists don't fail their saves. Another point where the game is cheating. If your saves are negative and you roll a 1, you will make your save.

I did not know that. That is so lame. Not that there's a big difference between a 5% and 0% success rate, but still...

also, I specifically said prebuffed, which means that I don't need to cast any more spells at the beginning of the combat

I know, but if we're doing a prebuff comparison, then I think a sans special ability comparison should be considered as well.

TS destroys Sanctuary (I believe?)

Nope. I checked before posting. Minor point, though, considering everything else.

Seriously, just try a Blade. Try to play solo and minimal reload to train yourself to use all the Blade buffs to their fullest and you'll see the light. (The light being: Arcane magic rules supreme. Even if it's only up to level 6.)

Well, I'm playing a canon party, but I'm starting to see how the blade can hold his own. Can he be a frontliner, though? I want my protagonist to be in the #1 slot, charging into battle in front of everyone. How would/can this work in BG1 as well?

Also, I know that the RP elements haven't really been discussed, but they are just as important (to me). The bard really complicates things for me. I could be a NG Harper-sympathizer (until that quest, at least), which is the only way I could see a bard/blade romancing a druid (Jah). However, I would have to give up PP, being NG. Or, I can go with a CN bard, PP to my heart's desire, and romance Viconia. However, I never really liked CN, especially for someone that should be a hero. Bards are difficult for me to peg in terms of concept.

I can see the protagonist getting lost in the stories in all the books at Candlekeep (hence the Bard class), then turning to the more combat-oriented Blade kit by BG2 once he realized that things were starting to get serious. This could be a reason to keep him on the back lines in BG1, as he's still wet behind the ears, though I would consider this to be a cop out.

Also, how cheaty is it (power-wise) to GK/SK a halfling bard? I always liked playing LPs, and I think the halfling is the only LP that can romance Jah and possibly Viconia. Not to mention, halflings are the only LPs who are of the right starting age. I know they get the save bonuses (which I don't really care about), which is why I would feel a little guilty SKing this.

To save you the trouble, here is how the Rogue Rebalancing mod changes the Skald:

I couldn't use that mod. I think most of the system adjustment mods throw an already unbalanced system further out of wack. I've seen a lot of silly house rulings with various DMs and I've designed a few homebrews myself (I have a solid background in statistics). Even the most seemingly smallest tweaks, when it comes to complicated systems like PnP RPGs, the butterfly effect is a very real thing.

DMs can be ****es, it's true, I know they have to remain partial but mine specifially ruled out all merchants in one city from selling whips because he deemed that they wouln't stock them.

I've had quite a few DMs, but only one of them was any good. Actually, he was amazing considering that when we started, I was pretty new to the game and didn't understand much. I played a thief that would search for secret doors everywhere he went. The DM was very patient though, and I soon learned. Eventually, we all went our own ways in life, but came back together later on to play 3e. When discussing character concepts, we all started joking about how I should play a Druid/Rogue named Searches-For-Secret-Doors.

It's a shame that PnP has waned. It used to be one of my favorite hobbies.

Modifié par Pipboy3billion, 16 septembre 2011 - 03:33 .