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Why emphasis on iconic look of party?


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#426
Dhiro

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Maria Caliban wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Willybot wrote...

I'm just hoping Bioware has enough in it's budget to make truly iconic collarbones and clavicles and won't have to cut elsewhere.

I think they will resolve this problem increasing breasts to the point where that controversial area becomes all covered up.


Early concept art for DA 3 male LI leaked!

-snip-


And people say Vega is the one on steroids.

#427
tmp7704

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addiction21 wrote...

Somebody needs to put foot to head on that artist.

Threatening Rob Liefeld with feet is plain inhuman.

#428
Anarya

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tmp7704 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Somebody needs to put foot to head on that artist.

Threatening Rob Liefeld with feet is plain inhuman.


It's fine, the head-kicking can just happen behind a conveniently placed rock.

#429
addiction21

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tmp7704 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Somebody needs to put foot to head on that artist.

Threatening Rob Liefeld with feet is plain inhuman.


Maybe but that drawing just seems so wrong to me. Maybe it is because of the perspective and he was going for something else... he is slightly turned with a profile perspective but it just looks so wrong.
I have seen many incarnations of cap (and have many of his comics going back to the care packages long gone family sent my grandfather and great uncles) but thats just over the top for me.

I am going to stop its not worth driving this thread off topic. I think it is allready hanging by a hair as is.

#430
syllogi

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The 40 Worst Rob Liefeld Drawings

Relating this back to the topic at hand, Liefeld is living proof that popular does not equal good. I'm sure plenty of people love the idea of tons of new, exciting, edgy Tattoo n' Scar covered characters, but if I had to choose, I would rather have a well written character who is less visually exciting, and I can change their appearance.

Edit:  but yeah, I am fully aware that I don't get to choose.

Modifié par TeenZombie, 08 septembre 2011 - 02:37 .


#431
Shadow of Light Dragon

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I like the idea of custom bodies instead of generic.

I like that companions have their own ideas on what they wear.

I like the concept of NPC wardrobes (even if I may ultimately deplore what's in the wardrobes).

I applaud the possibility of getting new NPC armour via quests (just...hopefully not as utterly random rewards, as the Champion Armour pieces were. Urgh. >.<). If it's story-related, like Zevran's boots and gloves, all the better.

I don't agree that iconic armour is a requirement for visually recognising NPCs, nor do I believe it should be used as an excuse simply because it makes it easier for cosplay/art competitions/marketing or whatever. Until everyone's wearing full-face helmets or masks (hello superheroes with your cunning disguises), faces still exist. Even with Zevran's mangled elven DA2 visage everyone recognised him. He has lots of artwork based around him. He has cosplayers.

I don't subscribe to 'Players should be able to control everything in a game.' Heck, I don't even think all LIs should be available to any-gender PC.

(edit: typo!)

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 08 septembre 2011 - 02:57 .


#432
Monica21

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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

I like the idea of custom bodies instead of generic.

I like that companions have their own ideas on what they wear.

I like the concept of NPC wardrobes (even if I may ultimately deplore what's in the wardrobes).

I applaud the possibility of getting new NPC armour via quests (just...hopefully not as utterly random rewards, as the Champion Armour pieces were. Urgh. >.<). If it's story-related, like Zevran's boors and gloves, all the better.

I don't agree that iconic armour is a requirement for visually recognising NPCs, nor do I believe it should be used as an excuse simply because it makes it easier for cosplay/art competitions/marketing or whatever. Until everyone's wearing full-face helmets or masks (hello superheroes with your cunning disguises), faces still exist. Even with Zevran's mangled elven DA2 visage everyone recognised him. He has lots of artwork based around him. He has cosplayers.

I don't subscribe to 'Players should be able to control everything in a game.' Heck, I don't even think all LIs should be available to any-gender PC.

I don't have anything to add, I'm just quoting it because I like all of it.

#433
Xilizhra

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I don't subscribe to 'Players should be able to control everything in a game.' Heck, I don't even think all LIs should be available to any-gender PC.

I liked it up until this point, now I have only hatred.

#434
MerinTB

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Merci357 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...


We can already do that ourselves.

4) Express character

Not BioWare's job.

No, it is exactly BioWare's job to express character - for our companions. DA:O or DA2 are not Icewind Dale.


SO trying to stay out of this thread, but at this point I just had to post:

More's the pity.

#435
addiction21

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MerinTB wrote...

SO trying to stay out of this thread, but at this point I just had to post:

More's the pity.


But have you ever expected different for your party members when it concerns BioWare? They have always come with their own backstory, attitude, and character.

I know you and I agree IWD gave us total controll. I like I could create my entire party, thier backstory, and their charater.
I also enjoy having charters that will interact with me and are their own person.

My perfect game would be to create my party like Icewind and have them be able to interact with me like they do in BioWare games.

#436
MerinTB

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addiction21 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

SO trying to stay out of this thread, but at this point I just had to post:

More's the pity.

But have you ever expected different for your party members when it concerns BioWare? They have always come with their own backstory, attitude, and character.

I know you and I agree IWD gave us total controll. I like I could create my entire party, thier backstory, and their charater.
I also enjoy having charters that will interact with me and are their own person.

My perfect game would be to create my party like Icewind and have them be able to interact with me like they do in BioWare games.


Oh, I know full well that BioWare has never given me this.  And that's also more the pity.

For all the attempts at their NPCs and party members having distinct personalities and interactions, and for as much as I enjoy that, I'd still rather have my party of six I make myself. *shrug*  Or, better yet, a hybrid like Gateway to the Savage Frontier or Wasteland or Temple of Elemental Evil - where I make my party AND can pick up a few pre-gens with personalities and such.

#437
They call me a SpaceCowboy

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I don't really mind the 'iconic' follower looks.

I do mind the 'iconic' dwarf npc outfits, the 'iconic' level maps. the 'iconic' fetch quests...

#438
XFemShepX

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Lots of vitriol in here.

I'm not a fan of the "iconic" look that Bioware seems to want to assign to squadmates in games. It doesn't make sense for Miranda to run around in a skin-tight jumpsuit, just like it doesn't make sense for Isabella to run around without pants on, even if she is some kind of gnarly pirate. Sure, you can't compete with a 40-year history of Superman, but you think a one-shot game like DA2 will garner recognition of those characters among the gaming community at large?

If it's about saving time to fit a deadline and resources to make other parts of the game more awesome, however, I can live without the armor sets/customization. But for Christ's sake, no more recycled environments. Use your time and resources to actually make a game that doesn't look like it was made on a shoestring budget. And also, no more crap "junk". Put some effort into it this time around. You can make money off DA2 after the release of DA:O; but if DA3 ends up as shoddy as DA2, I don't know if people will continue to dish out the money for the DA line. I was really shocked to see people in the ME2 thread actually *thank* Devs for postponing the game for more development, and it was all in large part to the perceived failure that DA2 is. That should speak volumes in and of itself.

I thought Legacy was a huge step in the right direction, however...not that my opinion matters.

Sorry if this pisses anyone off. <flameshield on>

EDIT:  Also, did anyone actually play with the bloodsmear across Hawke's face?  Is that iconic?  Because I thought it was kind of stupid and childish.  Who would run around and talk to people in the city with a huge smear of blood on their face?  I know, I know, this is fantasy and not reality, so we can make any excuse for a lame idea.

Modifié par XFemShepX, 08 septembre 2011 - 03:56 .


#439
addiction21

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MerinTB wrote...

Oh, I know full well that BioWare has never given me this.  And that's also more the pity.

For all the attempts at their NPCs and party members having distinct personalities and interactions, and for as much as I enjoy that, I'd still rather have my party of six I make myself. *shrug*  Or, better yet, a hybrid like Gateway to the Savage Frontier or Wasteland or Temple of Elemental Evil - where I make my party AND can pick up a few pre-gens with personalities and such.


It is such a fine line. ToEE love that game. I am not familiar with Gateway or Wasteland. Ya I know. I have heard a lot about them but they are like Disc World and Game of Thrones. I missed them in their prime and need to get around to them.

To put it out there the visual aspect of my party mates has never been an issue. I am a performence over looks sort of person.

As far as what has been reccomended my Mr. Laidlaw that is a good comprimise for me. Well even DA2 wasnt that bad but being able to eauip them with helms armors as I want, including accessorires is a nice place for me.

Maybe I wille make it to wasteland and the other after this second heavily modded KoToR 2 playthru/

#440
AngryFrozenWater

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addiction21 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

Oh, I know full well that BioWare has never given me this.  And that's also more the pity.

For all the attempts at their NPCs and party members having distinct personalities and interactions, and for as much as I enjoy that, I'd still rather have my party of six I make myself. *shrug*  Or, better yet, a hybrid like Gateway to the Savage Frontier or Wasteland or Temple of Elemental Evil - where I make my party AND can pick up a few pre-gens with personalities and such.

It is such a fine line. ToEE love that game. I am not familiar with Gateway or Wasteland. Ya I know. I have heard a lot about them but they are like Disc World and Game of Thrones. I missed them in their prime and need to get around to them.

To put it out there the visual aspect of my party mates has never been an issue. I am a performence over looks sort of person.

As far as what has been reccomended my Mr. Laidlaw that is a good comprimise for me. Well even DA2 wasnt that bad but being able to eauip them with helms armors as I want, including accessorires is a nice place for me.

Maybe I wille make it to wasteland and the other after this second heavily modded KoToR 2 playthru/

Mr Laidlaw never made a compromise. A compromise would be how Morrigan was handled in DA:O. That way both the "iconic look" and the ability to use armor found in loot could be used. But no. Mr Laidlaw prefered the way DA2 was handled and refuses anything that remotely reminds him of DA:O. At best we get a second retextured companion armor. How about DLCs with more retextures? I am not interested in ME2 with swords and magic.

#441
Sabariel

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Alistair ran through most of DAO wearing Chasind Robes and wielding a crossbow. Isn't that more iconic/unique/distinctive than wearing the same outfit and weapon for seven years? :innocent:

#442
Sylvius the Mad

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Merci357 wrote...

No, it is exactly BioWare's job to express character - for our companions. DA:O or DA2 are not Icewind Dale.

They're not OUR companions.  They're HAWKE'S companions.

It's not Hawke telling these people what to wear and how to behave.  I am, just as I do with Hawke.

My relationship to Hawke is the same (or it should be) as my relationship to Isabela.

#443
Sylvius the Mad

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DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Would't you break at least some of the rules of the game? Say, in BG1 you can only have 40 arrows in one inventory slot, which makes it harder to spam everything with bows. And EasyMod let's you stack 1000 arrows, and everyone seems OK with it.

I believe BG limits you to just 20 arrows per inventory slot, and I was fine with that restriction, so I wouldn't have modded it.

Something BG2 changed that I didn't like, though, was the game paused automatically when the player opened the inventory or the map.  In BG time kept progressing if you left the game unpaused when reading the map, and the game automatically unpaused when you opened inventory.  Those are features I would like back, and those are the sorts of things I would like to see modifiable.  I'd like to be able to fiddle with how the engine works.

Considering some armor can give unique abilities and everything, changing everyone's armor into full dragonbone when they inted to wear something different can change games difficulty.
But I'm just nitpicking of course.

How is that nitpicking?  Of course players can change how the game plays by modifying it.  That's the whole point of modding the game.

#444
Sylvius the Mad

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PanosSmirnakos wrote...

I must be in the minority of old-school RPG fans who found the iconic armory/outfits of companions in DA II as one of the few changes which was positive. For example in DA:O, I could not imagine Morrigan to wear something else than her "witch of the wilds" style of robes or Wynne to wear something else than "circle of magi" style of robes... and you get the point. I always tried to find gear which was close to the personality of each companion or find a mod which was about about a unique outfit for a certain companion, so the iconic looks of DA II party saved me the trouble and time to do that... As long as my character has total freedom to choose my own armory / weaponry, I'm satisfied.

Yes, but DAO accommodated you.  Because you couldn't imagine why Morrigan would dress differently, you were allowed to keep her in her iconic robes.

Those of us who could imagine a reason for that, though (or those who just didn't care about the reason) were also allowed to play the game.

Forcing everyone to play the game the same way necessarily alienates some of the players.

#445
elearon1

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AngryFrozenWater wrote...
At best we get a second retextured companion armor. How about DLCs with more retextures?


I believe, if you read the thread on DA3 armor, that the implication is you'll get more than "2 armor types which only differ by a vague retexturing."  

The plan for DA3 right now is to allow people to use looted armor on companions for the mechanical benefits it grants, but not change the way they look.  This seems like a terrific compromise to me - the people who complained because they couldn't influence the stats of companion armor get what they wanted, and the people who loved the idea of companions in personalized outfits get to keep what they liked. (and with additional outfits made available throughout the game, they get a few more options in that regard as well - and people who didn't like the default outfits will get to choose between the different outfits they unlock along the way)

I know for some people the only real "compromise" is the one where they get everything they asked for, but that just isn't going to happen.  Personally I would much rather have everyone in personalized looks, than the problem I kept running into in DA:O of my character and leliana looking almost identical because they were both wearing the same - currently best available - rogue armor.  Or never wearing helmets because I couldn't stand my fighters all looking like indistinguishable tin cans.  

Though, I can see why some people keep rehashing the same complaints and reasking the same - answered - questions ... it gets them attention from the Devs, who - I fear - really should have given up trying to reexplain themselves in this same thread so many times.  (Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see Devs participating, it just seems like they're beating their heads against the walls answering and re-anwering the same questions.  At some point they need to say, "hey, this question has been answered in this thread already" and move on to another issue.)

#446
Sylvius the Mad

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David Gaider wrote...

I wanted that, too.

The artists looked at me with their sad eyes. "Do you really want us to create an entirely new torso with all those tattoos just for that one scene?"

"That's a stupid question. Of course I do."

"Sigh. Okay, what do you want to cut, then?

The correct answer there is "the release date".

#447
Sylvius the Mad

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addiction21 wrote...

My perfect game would be to create my party like Icewind and have them be able to interact with me like they do in BioWare games.

That's one of the reasons I like DAO so much.  Changing a companion character's abilities, specialisation, class, appearance, gender, or even race is a pretty straightforward process.

#448
elearon1

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...
My relationship to Hawke is the same (or it should be) as my relationship to Isabela.


I don't see how that follows.  Hawke is your PC; she is the character through which you explore the story and the world.  It is through her eyes and from her perspective that you explerience the game ... not Isabela's, or Merril's. (technically, I suppose, you could claim it is all through Varric's - but that would be nitpicking a bit too hard) 

Because Hawke is your window into the world of DA2 your relationship with her should be different from your relationship with Isabela ... whose actions you can control in combat, but whose dialogue and character development is entirely out of your hands.  (Hawke, at least, has 3 personality types you can mix and match to form her relatively unique personality from)

Part of the purpose in playing an rpg, (or crpg) is getting into the PC and experiencing the game from their perspective. 

#449
Shadow of Light Dragon

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AngryFrozenWater wrote...

At best we get a second retextured companion armor. How about DLCs with more retextures?


You have no basis on which to claim you know anything of how additional companion armour will be handled, let alone how many there will be. It hasn't  been announced yet and you should know better.

And so what if DLCs will provide more armour sets? So long as they don't take armour (or any other content) *out* of the game pre-release simply to provide a quick and early DLC, there is nothing wrong with that. I still won't buy it, and you don't have to either. I fail to see what's so morally repugnant about selling virtual vanity items.

You don't see Bioware whining and moaning about modders creating free PC/NPC armour.

(You guys don't do that, do you? :huh:)

#450
Stanley Woo

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bEVEsthda wrote...
It's tempting to kinda assume the question is rethorical, and meant to make a point rather than meant to be answered. Still: The foundation of the name is that I wanted you to think of Bethesda. I chose that as a sort of childishly spiteful declaration that Bioware (since DA2) is no longer my favourite developer, Bethesda now is (of course, since I'm never on Bethesda's forums, but quite frequently here, that may not be the whole subconscious truth). The EVE capitalization is something I've often regretted, it stands out too much. But I didn't want to be completely confused with Bethesda. I wanted a visible difference. It was made in the moment and now I'm stuck with my name. But sure, if I now must change to Bevesthda? I'd be very cool with that. But wouldn't it be even more likely to be mistaken for Bethesda then?

I'm actually impressed you answered the question, though I was beginning to wonder if you would. :) I bear you no personal ill will and any perceived malice or disrespect you find in my post, I will blame on the difficulty of displaying tone in a text-only medium.

Your explanation is fine, but it doesn't come through in the name, so any implied insult or meaning is lost because people have to think about it. If you wanted everyone to know the meaning, and spelled your screen name in such a way that everyone gets it right off the bat, you will have succeeded in the kind of communication and presentation that companies aim for in their products.

I think we're fine on that point, as long as the reason for distinctive looks becoming iconic looks, that is enforced on me in my gameplay, is only due to resource management. Market and present your characters with your distinctive looks all you want.

We are, and your "distinctive look" is the same as our "iconic look." Somewhere along the way, people started ascribing much more importance to the word and blew the argument way out of proportion. I was never talking about our characters as pop culture icons known to everyone in the world instantly. I was always refering to them being distinctive within our franchise.

But this thing does change somewhat, the day there is no other reason, but you still don't allow me to fit armour #4, just because you think Isabela absolutely shall **** around in a short dress in my party, no matter what. In that case, the flavor of the game has changed considerably from BG and DA:O. Is the question - "What is it to you, how Isabela appears in my game?" - really so unreasonable to you?  Do you hang over my shoulder?

No, but we also can't provide adequate explanations to every single person regarding what we have time for and what we don't, what we cut from games or what our original vision is, or how the game evolved between concepting and finaling. Our go-to response for why things are not as you want them will always be something like "inadequate zots," because a lack of time or resources is something everyone recognizes and can identify with.

If we, for whatever reason, decide that you can't change the outfit of your follower, and you feel that strongly about it, then no response we give you will be adequate, and no feedback from your side will suddenly change it. You are talking about one feature in a game composed of dozens if not hundreds of related or associated features, systems, code, visions, and the work of scores of developers all mashed in together in a frequently fragile Jenga tower of videogame. You can say the "flavour of the game has changed considerably from BG and DAO" and I will respond with "Of coursse it has. Baldur's Gate was released in 1998, which means development up to two years prior. Developing games differently between 1996 and 2011? Very yes."

"What's it to you, how Isabela appears in my game?" Absolutely nothing. Over a dozen people put in a lot of work to make Isabela a certain way, we present her in a certain way, and you are more than free to change the way she looks or acts or what she says. Once the game leaves our office, we have very little control over how you play it. If you can manage it, we would have nothing to say should you change her outfit, name, personality, voice, or what have you. On the other hand, if we chose not to allow NPC customization, we're not going to help you change her. ;) You'll have to do it on your own, as that is not an officially supported feature, kind of like BG multiplayer or NWN persistent worlds. You can do it, and we're not going to whinge about it, but we're not going to help you do it. 

Let's start with: Why do you allow us to customize our avatar? And why do you allow us to customize our player char?

Customizing your PC is a staple of the RPG genre and it's one of the more universally desired features of an RPG. Players enjoy customizing their PC since it's "their" character, the one that represents them in the game (to varying degrees, depending on their play style). Different RPGs provide different levels of customization, and it doesn't seem to matter how much customization there is, as long as the PC can be customized, players seem to be satisfied. That is, sales and enjoyment of a given RPG is not solely dependent on the level of PC customization.

And is your question a hint that this practice will cease in the future? Maybe next time we'll be forced to play default Hawke? Would that have greater marketing opportunities? 

No. As much as the internet would like to take the easy out and assume that anything I don't talk about is necessarily gone from future games, this is not the case. I will talk about the topic at hand. Just because I don't talk about inventory, doesn't mean that inventory is affected or not affected in future products. Just because I refer to Hawke as he does not necessarily mean that we will only allow male PCs in future products.

If--and this is a hypothetical if--we decide to remove the PC choices entirely and force players to play the default PC, then that is a decision we will have made after many discussions and meetings, weighing the pros and cons, and there would be a damn good reason (or a host of damn good reasons) for it. Because the internet would flip if we ever announced that! I can't predict the future and neither can you, but as I'm closer to the process and the development team, I would hazard a guess that your hypothetical situation is, at best, highly unlikely for the foreseeable future.

Surely a recognizable Hawke is even more important than party members?

This question has been asked a lot, but not when talking about NPCs. Many people have asked this in relation to the prevalence of manShep and manHawke in our marketing and why can't we ever see femShep or ladyHawke on the game box or in advertisements or promo videos. This is changing, however, with the recent contest to vote on iconic femShep.