791 réponses à ce sujet

[syllogi]

Stanley Woo wrote...

"Streamlining" is just making RPGs less number-crunching and more jump-into-the-action. Look at complex RPG rule systems like Palladium, AD&D, Rolemaster, the HERO system, etc. Traditionally, CRPGs had similar complex systems because they were the digital version of sitting around with your buddies playing open-and-paper RPGs. And for a long time, RPGs were all about stats and numbers and rules. These days, with technology as advanced as it is, we can afford to put a lot of those rules in the background and let the player do what he wants to do most, which is dive right into the game and the setting and play. The modern gamer doesn't want to know what THAC0 is, couldn't care less whether Choking Cloud gives you a -2 or -3 to Acrobatics, and who chooses Fire Arrow over Fireball not because it does more damage, but because it looks friggin' BOSS when it explodes on the Mayonnaise Elemental's face! "Streamlining" does not mean accepting a lower quality standard, nor does it mean "dumbing down" a product.

Yeah, um, sorry Stanley, I respect your overall points in this thread, but them there's fighting words.  

Why do people still play Go, if they could just play checkers instead?  You are basically saying that the modern gamer doesn't want to think when they play games.  If that's the philosophy Bioware wants to apply to their future games, by all means, go ahead, but you are going to lose not only old fans, but potential new ones, to other game developers who don't think we're too slow and unsophisticated to understand basic role playing mechanics.

Why can't Bioware make a game that has a forgiving learning curve, but *does* offer more depth and strategic gameplay, if the consumer chooses to learn and get better?  I really don't see the upside to your above post.  You say that people don't want to strategize -- which is exactly what choosing the correct spell for the correct situation is -- and then you say that streamlining is not dumbing down.  If my only choice is the big shiny fireball, and I never am allowed the more conservative yet effective Fire Arrow, yes, my gameplay has been dumbed down.  And I'm not interested in that game anymore.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Mr.House wrote...

You pay $60 so you can dress up people?

I paid considerably more than that for my copy of Poser.

[Addai]

Mr.House wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

BS why? You're not in a party camp. When you arrange your party you're essentially doing the RPG equivalent of going over to your friend's house and asking if they can come out to play. You don't then toss them clothes and say, "Well, you'd better wear this instead." 

You're mixing up player agency with PC agency.  It's the player organizing the party, not the PC.  I paid 60 bucks for the game, so I get a say- Hawke doesn't.

You pay $60 so you can dress up people?

You pay $60 so you can see explosions of pixel blood on your screen?

[Zippy72]

Stanley Woo wrote...

. The modern gamer doesn't want to know what THAC0 is, couldn't care less whether Choking Cloud gives you a -2 or -3 to Acrobatics, and who chooses Fire Arrow over Fireball not because it does more damage, but because it looks friggin' BOSS when it explodes

The eight year old gamer maybe.

[RagingCyclone]

Addai67 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

BS why? You're not in a party camp. When you arrange your party you're essentially doing the RPG equivalent of going over to your friend's house and asking if they can come out to play. You don't then toss them clothes and say, "Well, you'd better wear this instead." 

You're mixing up player agency with PC agency.  It's the player organizing the party, not the PC.  I paid 60 bucks for the game, so I get a say- Hawke doesn't.

You pay $60 so you can dress up people?

You pay $60 so you can see explosions of pixel blood on your screen?

Funny thing about this circle going on here, unless you are standing over the shoulder of the player, how they play the game and why they play it the way they do should not matter to you.  Everyone has a different style and approach to playing...it's their $60 they spent, let them play how they want to play it.

[Kimberly Shaw]

Stanley Woo wrote...

"Streamlining" is just making RPGs less number-crunching and more jump-into-the-action. Look at complex RPG rule systems like Palladium, AD&D, Rolemaster, the HERO system, etc. Traditionally, CRPGs had similar complex systems because they were the digital version of sitting around with your buddies playing open-and-paper RPGs. And for a long time, RPGs were all about stats and numbers and rules. These days, with technology as advanced as it is, we can afford to put a lot of those rules in the background and let the player do what he wants to do most, which is dive right into the game and the setting and play. The modern gamer doesn't want to know what THAC0 is, couldn't care less whether Choking Cloud gives you a -2 or -3 to Acrobatics, and who chooses Fire Arrow over Fireball not because it does more damage, but because it looks friggin' BOSS when it explodes on the Mayonnaise Elemental's face! "Streamlining" does not mean accepting a lower quality standard, nor does it mean "dumbing down" a product.

Stanley Woo, with all respect, [I vehemently disagree wtih you]. I really don't know why you think you know what the "modern gamer wants" but check out DAO (more traditional RPG) sales versus DA2 (action RPG for modern CoD gamer) sales and get back to me on that.

Because I for one DO miss To Hit Armour class Zero, and stats, and chosing spells based on damage and knowing that fire arrow is a single target spell while fireball might blow up my whole party.

Your arrogance in knowing what the "modern gamer" wants is disgusting to me. 

[inappropriate comment removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 08 septembre 2011 - 08:36 .

[Steppenwolf]

Am I the only one who thinks comparing Superman to Isabela is apples and oranges? You just read a comic. When you play these games you can change the characters through your actions. Why should we only be able to change their personalities and emotions?
And why the hell did no one try out a new look for 10 damn years? It doesn't work in the context of DA2. If the game took place over the span of one year, sure. Slightly more believable. But for characters to remain not just the same age but in the same freaking clothes for 10 years is just laziness.

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

BS why? You're not in a party camp. When you arrange your party you're essentially doing the RPG equivalent of going over to your friend's house and asking if they can come out to play. You don't then toss them clothes and say, "Well, you'd better wear this instead." 

You're mixing up player agency with PC agency.  It's the player organizing the party, not the PC.  I paid 60 bucks for the game, so I get a say- Hawke doesn't.

Okay, so, not the best analogy. But you don't get a say in everything. You don't get to do a lot of things that are way more important than equipping your companions.

[addiction21]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

Stanley Woo, with all respect, go suck a bag of dinks. I really don't know why you think you know what the "modern gamer wants" but check out DAO (more traditional RPG) sales versus DA2 (action RPG for modern CoD gamer) sales and get back to me on that.

Because I for one DO miss To Hit Armour class Zero, and stats, and chosing spells based on damage and knowing that fire arrow is a single target spell while fireball might blow up my whole party.

Your arrogance in knowing what the "modern gamer" wants is disgusting to me. 

Sorry but your "more traditional RPG" lacked most all of those things. Sorry to break the new to you.

In reality DA2 gave you more of those stats and numbers then DAO ever did... but whatever.

[Lord Gremlin]

Reading this thread made me sad. It looks like Bioware will no longer make games I like and I'm not sure if anybody will...
Stanley Woo is explaining what streamlining is... And it makes me sad. I like my RPG complex, like, say, Demon's Souls (at least gameplay-wise). By that I mean game, that demands close attention to stat description, spell and equipment choice. The part of that experience is satisfaction of figuring out the most effective combination of stats, skills and equipment. While choosing stuff that just looks awesome often leads to you getting repeatedly kicked into groin and being forced to respec your character (or, in case of Demon's Souls, start from scratch). Basically, if you're trying to create an RPG that will allow just about anybody jump in and start doing awesome stuff from the start... Well, you ARE in fact dumbing it down for mass market...
The modern gamer doesn't want to know if Chocking Cloud does -2 or -3 to Agility... Well, wrong. There are modern gamers who want that. But you want appeal to lowest common denominator, aka dumb it down.
Just think about a couple of things: a lot of other developers providing content superior to you in that mass appeal. You alienated your long-term fans and stained your name with DA2, just look at all the bad press over the internet. And did you gain new fans?
Ah, forget it, I'm just really sad.

[Lord Gremlin]

Zippy72 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

. The modern gamer doesn't want to know what THAC0 is, couldn't care less whether Choking Cloud gives you a -2 or -3 to Acrobatics, and who chooses Fire Arrow over Fireball not because it does more damage, but because it looks friggin' BOSS when it explodes

The eight year old gamer maybe.

You know, Zippy72, this exact quote from Woo killed something inside me. I've realised that it's all finished. No more great games from Bioware.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

I have some pitchforks and torches for free.
Just saying.

[Maconbar]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Reading this thread made me sad. It looks like Bioware will no longer make games I like and I'm not sure if anybody will...
Stanley Woo is explaining what streamlining is... And it makes me sad. I like my RPG complex, like, say, Demon's Souls (at least gameplay-wise). By that I mean game, that demands close attention to stat description, spell and equipment choice. The part of that experience is satisfaction of figuring out the most effective combination of stats, skills and equipment. While choosing stuff that just looks awesome often leads to you getting repeatedly kicked into groin and being forced to respec your character (or, in case of Demon's Souls, start from scratch). Basically, if you're trying to create an RPG that will allow just about anybody jump in and start doing awesome stuff from the start... Well, you ARE in fact dumbing it down for mass market...
The modern gamer doesn't want to know if Chocking Cloud does -2 or -3 to Agility... Well, wrong. There are modern gamers who want that. But you want appeal to lowest common denominator, aka dumb it down.
Just think about a couple of things: a lot of other developers providing content superior to you in that mass appeal. You alienated your long-term fans and stained your name with DA2, just look at all the bad press over the internet. And did you gain new fans?
Ah, forget it, I'm just really sad.

Are you suggesting that DA:O was complex? It seems to me that the last complex game that BW made was BG2. That doesn't mean that I didn't enjoy KOTOR and DA:O.

[Atakuma]

Fandango9641 wrote...

So it’s official: Dragon Age 2 was dumbed down for the action set.

Nope

[San Diego Thief]

"The modern gamer doesn't want to know what THAC0 is, couldn't care less whether Choking Cloud gives you a -2 or -3 to Acrobatics, and who chooses Fire Arrow over Fireball not because it does more damage, but because it looks friggin' BOSS when it explodes"

When playing NWN, BG, and other DND related games, THAC0 was probably one of the stats I cared MOST about as it dictates whether or not you are more likely to hit an opponent

Deciding whether to make your mage study fire arrow or fireball is a challenge in itself. If you study fire arrow, you might accidentally run into a group of enemies and be out of luck. However, if you get stuck in a small corridor in a dungeon, then fireball will be useless due to friendly fire.

[hoorayforicecream]

Stanley Woo wrote...

"Streamlining" is just making RPGs less number-crunching and more jump-into-the-action. Look at complex RPG rule systems like Palladium, AD&D, Rolemaster, the HERO system, etc. Traditionally, CRPGs had similar complex systems because they were the digital version of sitting around with your buddies playing open-and-paper RPGs. And for a long time, RPGs were all about stats and numbers and rules. These days, with technology as advanced as it is, we can afford to put a lot of those rules in the background and let the player do what he wants to do most, which is dive right into the game and the setting and play. The modern gamer doesn't want to know what THAC0 is, couldn't care less whether Choking Cloud gives you a -2 or -3 to Acrobatics, and who chooses Fire Arrow over Fireball not because it does more damage, but because it looks friggin' BOSS when it explodes on the Mayonnaise Elemental's face! "Streamlining" does not mean accepting a lower quality standard, nor does it mean "dumbing down" a product.

Hey Stan, I thought I should chime in here, since you're apparently getting taken to task by a lot of folks who want to focus on the specifics, but not the main message.

You're right. The trend in RPGs today, from tabletop to electronic, is for simplicity, streamlining and speed. If you look at D&D, the prototypical RPG, they've made significant strides in standardizing and streamlining the gameplay from AD&D to 3rd to 3.5 to 4th edition. The goal is to speed up the play, so you don't have to think about what modifiers and what boni you're adding, but whether that dagger you threw hit the dragon in the eye. The rules aren't the end, they're the means to the end, and I think that message is often lost among the people who are only looking for quote #42b to fuel their agendas.

World of Warcraft did a very similar design pass on their talent systems for Cataclysm, not because they dislike mathematic aspects of the game, but because it was less about choosing how you want to play, and more being forced down a specific line because it was mathematically advantageous to do so, and that was less fun than being able to choose how you want to play.

The ultimate goal is admirable - allowing players to make viable choices for reasons other than math. I just wish that people would see that as the goal and not "ZOMG BIOWARE HATES RPG GAMERS". I'm all for making the math actually transparent, but the goal is, once again, to allow players to make choices based on what they like, rather than what the math dictates. I believe that's what you were saying, and I wholeheartedly agree.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 08 septembre 2011 - 08:36 .

[Stanley Woo]

TeenZombie wrote...

Why do people still play Go, if they could just play checkers instead?

Would you like to compare the popularity and knowledge of each game, or compare the rules of each game? Even Reversi has simpler rules than Go, which is one reason it's well known and accessible.

You are basically saying that the modern gamer doesn't want to think when they play games. If that's the philosophy Bioware wants to apply to their future games, by all means, go ahead, but you are going to lose not only old fans, but potential new ones, to other game developers who don't think we're too slow and unsophisticated to understand basic role playing mechanics.

Which is the simpler, easier to understand to-hit mechanic: a) THAC0, or attack score vs. defence score? With THAC0, you have a simple table where your attack roll (higher is better) is compared to your target's AC (lower is better). With the other, higher is always better regardless of whether you're talking attack or defence.

In ShadowRun 2nd Edition, weapon damage codes looked like (3M4). The first number indicated the number of dice rolled, the lette indicated the level of damage, and the second number was the "staging number" (ie. the number of to-hit successes required to increase the damage code (Moderate damgae increases to Serious, Serious damage to Deadly, etc.)). different weapons had different staging numbers, usually ranging from 2-4. In 3rd Edition Shadowrun, all staging numbers became 2. That way, you didn't have to figure out different staging numbers for different weapons.

In 4th Edition ShadowRun, this is "streamlined" even more, such that even Target Numbers become irrelevant. A roll of 5 or 6 on a die is considered a success, and it is the number of successes which determines whether you succeed or fail at a skill roll or attack, etc.

Why change at all? Games like the Palldium Books rule set hasn't changed significantly in 25 years and they are still releasing new products, after all. "Streamlining" makes things easier on old players, and provides a good jumping-on point for new players. A "streamlined" rule set means players can jump into a game faster by learning the basic rules quickly, and taking as much time as they need for the nuanced, more complex rules.

Why can't Bioware make a game that has a forgiving learning curve, but *does* offer more depth and strategic gameplay, if the consumer chooses to learn and get better?

Why can't BioWare hit upon a perfect balance between depth and simplicity? The age-old "easy to learn but hard to master" rule system? Well, there's a reason not every game has is. that line is a fine one to walk and difficult to pull off, no matter what kind of game you're trying to make. How many rules is too many rules? how are those rules presented? How many players will "get it"? How many players will give up, and where? Heck, you might as well ask why some games sell and other games don't, because there's no simple answer.

I really don't see the upside to your above post.  You say that people don't want to strategize -- which is exactly what choosing the correct spell for the correct situation is -- and then you say that streamlining is not dumbing down.  If my only choice is the big shiny fireball, and I never am allowed the more conservative yet effective Fire Arrow, yes, my gameplay has been dumbed down.  And I'm not interested in that game anymore.

If you're the type of player that agonizes of which spell to choose, comparing the numerical advantages and disadvantages, and tweaking your character and planning out his progression from the beginning, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. What I am saying is that if that't the only way you play, then not every game is going to appeal to you. heck, not even every BioWare game is going to appeal to you. In our opinion, that's fine! You can like what you like and don't like what you don't like. In the opinion of some of our more vocal opponents, it sounds like we should be forced to appeal to everyone all the time, just because we appealed to them in the past. And that's something we can never promise to everyone.

We are willing to lose some fans if they feel we no longer provide the kind of game they are looking for. Some people are not willing to accept us making games they don't like.

[rak72]

Zippy72 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

. The modern gamer doesn't want to know what THAC0 is, couldn't care less whether Choking Cloud gives you a -2 or -3 to Acrobatics, and who chooses Fire Arrow over Fireball not because it does more damage, but because it looks friggin' BOSS when it explodes

The eight year old gamer maybe.

I think even 8yr olds have more brains than that.
*sigh* 

Modifié par rak72, 08 septembre 2011 - 08:35 .

[alex90c]

...and this is the reason Bioware rarely post in threads because their posts get taken in completely the wrong way, lol.

[T764]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Reading this thread made me sad. It looks like Bioware will no longer make games I like and I'm not sure if anybody will...
Stanley Woo is explaining what streamlining is... And it makes me sad. I like my RPG complex, like, say, Demon's Souls (at least gameplay-wise). By that I mean game, that demands close attention to stat description, spell and equipment choice. The part of that experience is satisfaction of figuring out the most effective combination of stats, skills and equipment. While choosing stuff that just looks awesome often leads to you getting repeatedly kicked into groin and being forced to respec your character (or, in case of Demon's Souls, start from scratch). Basically, if you're trying to create an RPG that will allow just about anybody jump in and start doing awesome stuff from the start... Well, you ARE in fact dumbing it down for mass market...
The modern gamer doesn't want to know if Chocking Cloud does -2 or -3 to Agility... Well, wrong. There are modern gamers who want that. But you want appeal to lowest common denominator, aka dumb it down.
Just think about a couple of things: a lot of other developers providing content superior to you in that mass appeal. You alienated your long-term fans and stained your name with DA2, just look at all the bad press over the internet. And did you gain new fans?
Ah, forget it, I'm just really sad.

I don't agree, if the PC is my character surely i should be allowed to chose my equipment based upon what i like NOT upon what's got the best stat boost's or AV  or whatever. If i am playing a shooter and am offered a choice between the "better" Glock 19 and the "worse" Webley MK. VI i will chose the Webley because i prefer the style, in Origins i used the Chasind Flatblade after finding better equipment because i preferred the style.
 
As to the chocking cloud bit does it matter if it does a -2 or a -3 to agility, not really, its enough to know that it affects agility and for how long. Having two spells or two versions of one, one that does a -2 and one that does a -3 seems unnecessary.

If a mass market gamer can create strategies and decide on the effectiveness of weapons and equipment with minimal information then a "more intelligent" "old school rpg gamer" should be able to.

[Stanley Woo]

simfamSP wrote...
I've always been the one to 'defend' Bioware in a lot of cases... but Stanley do you know who your adressing? I totally understand what your saying. But you could have said it better I think. Just seeing the word BOSS in a RPG like Dragon age makes me sigh with desperation. 

And guys, this formula has been done since DA:O. It's not something new, it's just the phrasing of Stanley that makes it... questionable.

Look, I'm trying to stay hip and relevant to the current lingo, okay? "Boss" is a rad term, isn't it? I'm still hep and with it?

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

addiction21 wrote...

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

Stanley Woo, with all respect, go suck a bag of dinks. I really don't know why you think you know what the "modern gamer wants" but check out DAO (more traditional RPG) sales versus DA2 (action RPG for modern CoD gamer) sales and get back to me on that.

Because I for one DO miss To Hit Armour class Zero, and stats, and chosing spells based on damage and knowing that fire arrow is a single target spell while fireball might blow up my whole party.

Your arrogance in knowing what the "modern gamer" wants is disgusting to me. 

Sorry but your "more traditional RPG" lacked most all of those things. Sorry to break the new to you.

In reality DA2 gave you more of those stats and numbers then DAO ever did... but whatever.

Crack, stop smoking it.