791 réponses à ce sujet

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Atakuma wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

What in your mind made TW/TW2 so complex or for the matter, DA:O? None of the games that you are mentioning seem to have the characteristic of complexity.

To Her Complexity=Not made by Bioware.

I dunno the alchemy system alone is pretty deep imo. But YMMV obviously, and that combat isn't just frantic, that I can time attacks and have to use appopriate weapons for what I'm facing. TW2 gives the player options. Options that DA2 couldn't even begin to.

[Siven80]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

What in your mind made TW/TW2 so complex or for the matter, DA:O? None of the games that you are mentioning seem to have the characteristic of complexity.

To Her Complexity=Not made by Bioware.

I dunno the alchemy system alone is pretty deep imo. But YMMV obviously, and that combat isn't just frantic, that I can time attacks and have to use appopriate weapons for what I'm facing. TW2 gives the player options. Options that DA2 couldn't even begin to.

 
Seriously? Deep alchemy system and choosing a steel sword for humans and silver for monsters is complex?

While i do love TW2, i just feel you have an axe to grind for DA2 tbh.

[John Epler]

MorrigansLove wrote...

Lol, yeah, you keep thinking that, buddy boy.

Let's avoid this sort of needless condescension.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Stanley Woo wrote...
Because we're still making games the way we do, we're still making some darn fine stories, we're still creating characters that will polarize the community.

I won't cross my heart that your stories and characters are just perfect, but let's say they are fine. Thing is, it's just not the issue.
People are angry because they don't like the way you make them experience those stories and characters.

[billy the squid]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

What in your mind made TW/TW2 so complex or for the matter, DA:O? None of the games that you are mentioning seem to have the characteristic of complexity.

To Her Complexity=Not made by Bioware.

I dunno the alchemy system alone is pretty deep imo. But YMMV obviously, and that combat isn't just frantic, that I can time attacks and have to use appopriate weapons for what I'm facing. TW2 gives the player options. Options that DA2 couldn't even begin to.

The story is actually compelling and complex, the characters have more depth, the decisions have actual consequences, it retains enough realism to make players think before they act regarding combat. There is no
A vs B among other things.

Modifié par billy the squid, 08 septembre 2011 - 10:00 .

[alex90c]

billy the squid wrote...

alex90c wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

 
That is not to say that games cannot have action orientated combat or visually stunning worlds to explore. But, it does not have to devolve into hammering a button or running around until a talent is available whilst overwhelming someone's senses with exploding things. Nor inumerable random groups of enemies with some contrived grievance attacking me every 10 minutes.

If you watched Bioware Pulse today, IIRC Mike Darrah quite clearly said for future content they don't want people just mashing a button repeatedly to win encounters.

We'll have to see how that turns out. "Think like a general, fight like a Spartan." was the phrase used for DA2. I remain dubious.

Well Bioware deserve to be given a chance at least, I mean this is their only game they've failed in my opinion so they can win back peoples' trust with DA3.

They'll probably want to tell Silverman to stay away from phrases that can be interpreted as "hurhur we wunt dur cod crowd" though, I mean with the slogan you just mentioned I think it had a few people facepalming, and of course DA2 ended up just being a mindless button basher which didn't really involve thinking in combat encounters and ... well what is fighting like a Spartan exactly? I mean if we refer to the historical Spartans then no we didn't since we didn't gear ourselves with bulky shields, spears and close ranks in to a phalanx :happy:

[billy the squid]

alex90c wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

alex90c wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

 
That is not to say that games cannot have action orientated combat or visually stunning worlds to explore. But, it does not have to devolve into hammering a button or running around until a talent is available whilst overwhelming someone's senses with exploding things. Nor inumerable random groups of enemies with some contrived grievance attacking me every 10 minutes.

If you watched Bioware Pulse today, IIRC Mike Darrah quite clearly said for future content they don't want people just mashing a button repeatedly to win encounters.

We'll have to see how that turns out. "Think like a general, fight like a Spartan." was the phrase used for DA2. I remain dubious.

Well Bioware deserve to be given a chance at least, I mean this is their only game they've failed in my opinion so they can win back peoples' trust with DA3.

They'll probably want to tell Silverman to stay away from phrases that can be interpreted as "hurhur we wunt dur cod crowd" though, I mean with the slogan you just mentioned I think it had a few people facepalming, and of course DA2 ended up just being a mindless button basher which didn't really involve thinking in combat encounters and ... well what is fighting like a Spartan exactly? I mean if we refer to the historical Spartans then no we didn't since we didn't gear ourselves with bulky shields, spears and close ranks in to a phalanx :happy:

Nah, obviously the marketing dept were watching 300 with pizza and beer. Then thought, "I know what would be a good idea!"

Edit: Whilst I wouldn't condemn any development team by shouting.....

 [ If you have something to say, write it, don't spam it. See ]#2 specifically]  

Oh, you guys are mean.

After DA2 and the continued design direction which seems to be enforced I remain apprehensive, particularly when some aspects I have severe misgivings over, which I had for DA2. For instance, I was worried that the framed narrative of DA2 would be jarring and disjointed, I was disappointed to be correct in my assessment.

So until more time has passed on the development side and if there is some frank discussion down the line about what it actually contains I will reserve judgmwnt and my funds.

Modifié par billy the squid, 08 septembre 2011 - 10:56 .

[FieryDove]

alex90c wrote...

... well what is fighting like a Spartan exactly?

It means charge in and...kill. You will be out-numbered and surrounded, but fight anyway. Yes? No?

[Dave of Canada]

I think the marketing phrases for Dragon Age 2 often being repeated (and insulted) by the community and the people outside of it suggests that marketing did their job and got the game's name out. No such thing as bad publicity.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 08 septembre 2011 - 10:05 .

[ipgd]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

You pay $60 so you can dress up people?

I paid considerably more than that for my copy of Poser.

Oh god, you actually paid money for Poser?

See, Poser is like my version of everyone else's DA2. A hellish abomination -- a broodmother, if you will -- birthing legions of glassy-eyed, horrifyingly stiff monstrosities to masquerade as actual 3D art and plague the internet with their horrible elbow joints. Also, the porn. The porn. Oh lord, it hurts me so much.

Monica21 wrote...

the characters aren't polarizing.

Jeez, just look at any thread about Anders. They all end up like meatgrinders of rage.

Modifié par ipgd, 08 septembre 2011 - 10:07 .

[hoorayforicecream]

billy the squid wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

What in your mind made TW/TW2 so complex or for the matter, DA:O? None of the games that you are mentioning seem to have the characteristic of complexity.

To Her Complexity=Not made by Bioware.

I dunno the alchemy system alone is pretty deep imo. But YMMV obviously, and that combat isn't just frantic, that I can time attacks and have to use appopriate weapons for what I'm facing. TW2 gives the player options. Options that DA2 couldn't even begin to.

The story is actually compelling and complex, the characters have more depth, the decisions have actual consequences, it retains enough realism to make players think before they act regarding combat. There is no
A vs B among other things.

But the original quote was about things like THAC0 and whether Stinking Cloud affects your Acrobatics skill roll. The Witcher 2 essentially streamlines all of this stuff out in favor of a much more action-RPG oriented combat system. These were given as examples of needless complexity that were removed, and Jinstar was responding to this using the Witcher 2 as an example of a complex game. The funny thing is that I find many gameplay aspects of the Witcher 2 to be much simpler than DAO or DA2 (heck, even accuracy isn't taken into account by the Witcher 2, Geralt just hits whatever he swings at if it's in range), but Jinstar decided to use it as a counterexample.

If anything, the Witcher 2's combat is exceedingly simple. 99% of the battles in the game on any difficulty can be won with this very simple 5-step algorithm:

1. Light attack
2. Light attack
3. Roll away
4. Reapply shield if need be
5. Go to 1.

[alex90c]

billy the squid wrote...


Nah, obviously the marketing dept were watching 300 with pizza and beer. Then thought, "I know what would be a good idea!"

Hindsight is 20:20 of course. Probably seemed a good idea at the time, though they really should have thought "does this even remotely fit our combat?" before usng it in advertising, since if people can't see how the slogan would work they'd probably raise a brow. Same with the whole "world shapes itself around your decisions" kind of stuff, when you're not really allowed to make big decisions like that.

FieryDove wrote...

It means charge in and...kill. You will be out-numbered and surrounded, but fight anyway. Yes? No?

I'd hardly say that was exclusive to the Spartans, I could probably scrape up a few historical battles which involved one side doing exactly this kind of thing.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

I don't get polarizing.

Would't it be better if half the people liked character, and the other one hated, but admitted that he is still good written and makes sense in the game instead?

[mesmerizedish]

ipgd wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

the characters aren't polarizing.

Jeez, just look at any thread about Anders. They all end up like meatgrinders of rage.

Indeed. Fenris too, except the Fengirls have pretty much leveraged their frothing insane rage to keep anyone interested in reasonable discussion out of "their" thread.

And, you know what? I hear some people liked Gaeta.

[KnightofPhoenix]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
If anything, the Witcher 2's combat is exceedingly simple. 99% of the battles in the game on any difficulty can be won with this very simple 5-step algorithm:

1. Light attack
2. Light attack
3. Roll away
4. Reapply shield if need be
5. Go to 1.

1. bring tank, use taunt
2. AoE attacks
3. bring in the rest
4. repeat to deal with the second wave

All games can be made to look that way, if one so wishes.

I agree though that TW2's combat is not complex in the sense it was used.
Imo it's more tactical than DA2's, but neither strike me as complex. Which is fine.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 septembre 2011 - 10:13 .

[ipgd]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Indeed. Fenris too, except the Fengirls have pretty much leveraged their frothing insane rage to keep anyone interested in reasonable discussion out of "their" thread.

And, you know what? I hear some people liked Gaeta.

I loved Gaeta He was interesting.

Plus, he was the token Gay in Space.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

If anything, the Witcher 2's combat is exceedingly simple. 99% of the battles in the game on any difficulty can be won with this very simple 5-step algorithm:

1. Light attack
2. Light attack
3. Roll away
4. Reapply shield if need be
5. Go to 1.

TW2's combat is a total ripoff of Jade Empire.

*runs away*

Modifié par ipgd, 08 septembre 2011 - 10:15 .

[MerinTB]

FieryDove wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
And now I'm full-fledged in this...

About time!

I agree about the challenge part.

No, no, no one is better off for me entering pedantic mode and whipping out Google to do some research.  No one wants me going there, least of all me.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

We are willing to lose some fans if they feel we no longer provide the kind of game they are looking for.

Unfortunately, you were the last big developer who was providing a game that was even vaguely close to what I wanted.

Lucky for me Bethesda is finally starting to get to the point that I am not just mildly interested in using their games as character creators but actually as full-fledged games, and Obsidian is finally making non-BioWare sequel games.  So I've got a couple places to look to, hopefully, for more of what I want.

But for quite some time BioWare was my sanctuary, my comfort zone, the place I trusted to entertain me.  It is not without regret that I no longer see the company that way. :/

I hope for, and look forward to, the possibility that new games / directions / whatever from BioWare changes my opinion back... but I'm not holding my breath.

For now, though, Obsidian is the new BioWare.  For me, at least.

[Tommy6860]

Zjarcal wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

For example, it broke immersion for my rogue Hawke to be able to put on any various sets of rogue armors and change her looks, yet I couldn't change Isa's, though she's a rogue.

No offence but I can't see how it would break immersion, breaking immersion is usually due to some jarring event. You know from the beginning you can't change her outfit, do you suddenly forget you can't in the middle of a game?

No, it breaks immersion when the enemies are in battle gears (you know, armors and the like), while they can take hits, Isa does the same thing, but almost in her skivvies. See what I mean?

That is true indeed.

But I will say, when it comes to logic in combat, the DA series has never managed to immerse me. I mean, we can take arrows to our head and keep fighting while we still have them on our head. Swords can go right through our armors and through our backs and we keep going. We can be set on fire and keep on... etc.

So while I do get what you mean there, to me it was just another equally illogical bit that didn't really affect me because everything about the combat was already illogical.

The way I make some sense of it is that in the case of Isabela, she's simply extremely good at avoiding hits (which is the focus of her specialization, raising her defense), so her fighting half naked wouldn't be much of a problem.

True, but even with raising her stats, the effects didn't show very well graphically (they were mostly underlying increases in defense), and armor at least helps with the suspension of disbelief. I want the stats, it's part of RP and giving my PC and my companions the abilities to work with those stats and build abilities rearding them, but I want those stats to also show up during combat. I may be wrong, but I didn't ever see Isa dodge anything, just become more speedy in her movements. But the first time I saw a spear thrown by a Qunari go right through Merrill, while she kept fighting, I was like "arrgghh", but you are right about in mentioning an arrow as well. But at least in Origins, when I applied the stats, I would notice them in more detail. Like being able to dodge missiles, parrying shots off, etc, while all companions were able to wear different armors/robes. I felt like I was making everyome's defense meaningful, by being able to see the effects.

Having said that, I liked the looks of armors and robes in DA2 far more than I did in DA:O, I just wish I could have used them on my companions. I tell you ione of the coolest defenses I ever saw was in KoTOR, called "Uncanny Dodge", where my PC could duck, move side to side, avoiding hits from a sword/light saber. It's those defenses that are seen that make them realistic, but that is me.

[mesmerizedish]

ipgd wrote...

I loved Gaeta He was interesting.

Plus, he was the token Gay in Space.

Cain was the token Gay in Space. Gaeta was the token Whiny Little B*tch. I liked him until he, you know, turned into a Whiny Little B*tch.

TW2's combat is a total ripoff of Jade Empire.

*runs away*

Why run? You know it's true 

[Sylvius the Mad]

alex90c wrote...

what is fighting like a Spartan exactly? I mean if we refer to the historical Spartans then no we didn't since we didn't gear ourselves with bulky shields, spears and close ranks in to a phalanx

I think it would be pretty cool if the combat system rewarded us for keeping to a strict formation.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...
TW2's combat is a total ripoff of Jade Empire.

*runs away*

I don't really care. At the end of the day I had a lot of fun with it.

[Stanley Woo]

FieryDove wrote...

You need a hug I can tell. *HUG*

Thanks! *hugs abck*

There are some things I will never agree with Bioware on. Like the idea that every gamer needs many arcade games shoved in the face to progress in a game. Mini-games are fine, mandatory mini-games are not. (And on plot doors) Not everyone loved planet scanning no matter what the devs said. Even kotor had untold threads (once they stopped locking them) of people who disliked or even worse could not do the turret/fighter mini-games.

Bah on it all.

That's pretty ironic, since we worked our tails off and kept simplifying and simplifying the KotOR turret minigame (streamlining, dumbing down, Melvin, whatever, I've about given up trying to define words) until you could complete it without even trying, simply because one of these minigames was on the crit path. We were able to complete it every time by simply hitting the fire button and not aiming. We got people who had trouble with the minigame to complete it every time. We literally got an 8-year-old girl  to complete the minigame every single time without any problem. we made it as foolproof as we could and as simple as we could without implementing a "WIN THIS GAME" button. And yet, we still were raked over the coals for making that minigame "impossible to beat"!

Good thing there's an easy way to gauge difficulty and find that balance between complexity and difficulty for everyone, eh?

[Willybot]

With all honesty, the prime factors that hurt DA2 was a (seemingly) reduced budget and development time. The actual features won't matter a lick if there isn't the time/money to implement them properly. Nothing I have seen or heard from the devs have assuaged these fears.

[Tommy6860]

Monica21 wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...
No, it breaks immersion when the enemies are in battle gears (you know, armors and the like), while they can take hits, Isa does the same thing, but almost in her skivvies. See what I mean?

Everything about RPG combat is immersion-breaking. There's nothing realistic about being captured in a dragon's maw, shaken, tossed back to the ground, and then being able to get back up and fight again. (And that was an example from Origins.) Isabela's ability to fight in her pirate gear is the really the least of any issues I have with combat.

Not to mention that Isabela is a grown up with her own housing arrangements and can dress herself. I don't think she'd take too kindly to me dictating what she wears.

But since it is me playing the game and I choose my companions and their abilties as they level up, why shouldn't I be able to add other gear for them to wear. Your example could applied to any game of lore, but we use suspension of disbelief to play through it. Not having armor on while getting chewed up by a dragon, makes that effort of SoD jarring.

But anyway, I never heard Isa tell me not to apply that increase to one of her abilities, when she wanted another as well.

[Sylvius the Mad]

ipgd wrote...

Oh god, you actually paid money for Poser?

See, Poser is like my version of everyone else's DA2. A hellish abomination -- a broodmother, if you will -- birthing legions of glassy-eyed, horrifyingly stiff monstrosities to masquerade as actual 3D art and plague the internet with their horrible elbow joints. Also, the porn. The porn. Oh lord, it hurts me so much.

It's a toy.  I can stage scenes and design clothing and it's just generally fun.

It certainly doesn't produce anything I would call art.