791 réponses à ce sujet

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

esper wrote...
Isabella having larger breast or Aveline being more masculine than standard human female.

Yeah, because ****** surely worth more in RPG than customization.
And what is with Aveline? She always wears armor, who cares how she looks naked?

[mesmerizedish]

ipgd wrote...

If it weren't for the tattoo and the fact we're on a Dragon Age forum right now, I doubt I'd immediately see Zevran. I'd probably see a LARPer.

You know I love you, but I think you might be going a little overboard here. First, the tattoo is as much a part of Zevran's character as Aveline's unique animations are of hers, or Isabela's bust is of hers. Taking it out of the equation is unfair cherrypicking. Second, even outside the context of Dragon Age, you would probably think "Zevran!" because you're a wild fangirl like I am, and I'm pretty sure I would recognize that as Zevran on the floor at Comic-Con.

If I saw someone with small breasts doing Isabela cosplay outside the context of Dragon Age and I were only an average fan instead of the sort that you and I actually are, I doubt I would recognize it as "Isabela!" any more than I would recognize that picture as Zevran without the tattoo and outside the context of Dragon Age.

[esper]

Harid wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Gemini1179 wrote...

The stock "Because we wanted it this way" answer just feels like such a cop out. It seems Bioware doesn't want to say "It's easier to sell companion attire DLC this way if we get you frustrated enough with one look on your companions." At least that would be honest.

That argument doesn't really fly, because if that was their intent what has prevented them from doing it with DA2?

Critical panning?

They can't sell altenertive companion outfit even if they wanted to, because if they did there is no way to change them. Mass effect had the loaylty system which allowed you to change between two armors and so bioware could sell more armors. They can't do that in dragon age, because the change is story driven and thus automatic. There is no companion warrobe to sell it in.

[billy the squid]

ipgd wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Dragon Age II Flemeth--instantly recognizable. Dragon Age II Isabela--also instantly recognizable.

As opposed to..?

Let's do a quick test.

.........

How long did it take you to recognize the character on this picture?

If it weren't for the tattoo and the fact we're on a Dragon Age forum right now, I doubt I'd immediately see Zevran. I'd probably see a LARPer.

What!? Quite clearly its Santa's Elves' Trade Union representative

Modifié par billy the squid, 07 septembre 2011 - 08:52 .

[mesmerizedish]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

esper wrote...
Isabella having larger breast or Aveline being more masculine than standard human female.

Yeah, because ****** surely worth more in RPG than customization.
And what is with Aveline? She always wears armor, who cares how she looks naked?

It's not how she looks naked, it's her animation package (which, for the record, is not at all hindered by customizable appearance).

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

"seeing Morrigan in any kind of Chantry robe just felt wrong to us"

Player: Tries to put chantry robes on Morrigan.
Morrigan: (voice) Wtf, I am not going to wear that ****!

Problem solved. And you also just got yerself a character with real personality outside dialogues and party banters.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 07 septembre 2011 - 08:54 .

[mesmerizedish]

esper wrote...

They can't sell altenertive companion outfit even if they wanted to, because if they did there is no way to change them. Mass effect had the loaylty system which allowed you to change between two armors and so bioware could sell more armors. They can't do that in dragon age, because the change is story driven and thus automatic. There is no companion warrobe to sell it in.

That's actually not true. Follower armors are real items that can exist in your inventory, and if you have more than one, you can swap them in and out.

The issue becomes that those follower armor items don't actually have any appearance attached to them. But that's easily scripted away.

[Leonia]

tmp7704 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

What makes it at all recognisable is the tatoo on side of face and nothing else.

That's part of the point -- characters are still instantly recognizable thanks to facial features alone, which makes the necessity of 'iconic outfits' dubious.

But i think you are ignoring something else here -- the outfit of the character is just as instantly recognizable as "DA armour" as any of the 'iconic appearances' given to characters in DA2. Meaning if the concern of the designers is "we want people to instantly know it's a character from our IP... they already had that.

But outfits go a long ways towards expanding on a character's personal tastes.. you can tell from Isabela's lack of pants that she's a daring woman who doesn't care what others think of her and you can tell from Varric's tailored jacket that he is a man of taste and class.. can you tell these things simply by looking at their faces?

I'm quite content with playing with the characters as their creators intended them to be played with rather than invent some crazy RP scenarios in my head that run completely contrary to what is happening on my screen. But maybe I'm weird for playing the games for story more than for a personal RP experience that I could easily get in other games.

[Harid]

Not that the concept of iconic looks matter outside of the small niche that play rpgs anyway.

You take Isabela to a COD player and they won't know who the **** it is.

So what is the point? And please don't say cosplay. Small skeleton differences are hardly noticeable given how far we are placed from the characters.

[bEVEsthda]

Harid wrote...

Seems like I was right when I stated that Bioware was stating "We like it our way, deal with it."

I get that vibe too. I also got the vibe that "best of DA:O and DA2" really just meant DA2 slightly polished to leave out most complained about flaws.

Still, Bioware can't really make a game they themselves don't believe in, as per instructions . Such will never work. They may be very misguided, but they do have to think they understand the game they're going to create.
But DA2:2 could still be a market disaster. In any case it needs an entirely new mindset from the customers. I'm not sure I'll go there, but I won't decide before time.

[Leonia]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

"seeing Morrigan in any kind of Chantry robe just felt wrong to us"

Player: Tries to put chantry robes on Morrigan.
Morrigan: (voice) Wtf, I am not going to wear that ****!

Problem solved. And you also just got yerself a character with real personality outside dialogues and party banters.

Removing player choice altogether.. that's going to gain a lot of popularity around here.

[syllogi]

My eight year old autistic son gets REALLY upset when I try to bring a character like Jack or Miranda to places like the Migrant Fleet or the Collector's Ship when he watches me play Mass Effect 2. He demands that I bring someone fully covered and wearing a proper helmet, like Grunt or Garrus.

It reminds me of how annoyed I was as a kid, watching cartoons, and thinking that these characters never change clothes. Even non-super hero characters. It wasn't just that it was not believable that these characters would choose not to change clothes over an unspecified period of time that might be years, it was insulting to me, as a viewer, even when I was just eight myself, to think that the creators of these shows thought that I could not "handle" seeing Shaggy or Velma in a different outfit. Yes, they have an iconic appearance, and yes, I understand why they were "frozen in time" this way, but if people can handle watching television shows and movies featuring characters with costume changes, I think we gamers can deal with seeing characters change outfits.

Some of my favorite parts of DA:O were dressing as guards to rescue Anora, or seeing Leliana and Morrigan dressed as Chantry sisters to break Alistair and the Warden out of Fort Drakon. So what changed between that time and now, that we as players are no longer savvy enough to enjoy that sort of element in a role playing game?

[AtreiyaN7]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

(But I do see the point on resources and not going back to generic bodies.)

I don't see the resource argument at all.  Generic bodies with the same armour for everyone should be cheaper to build, because you wouldn't need different models and animation rigs for all of the characters.

And I'll say it again: No graphical improvement since NWN has been worth the development cost.  Not one.

And I am of the opinion that many graphical improvements since NWN have been positive and added to my immersion in various games. With the processing and graphical capabilities of modern hardware, it would be a shame to not take advantage of it just because some people are of the opinion that it's not worth the expenditure.

[Harid]

leonia42 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

What makes it at all recognisable is the tatoo on side of face and nothing else.

That's part of the point -- characters are still instantly recognizable thanks to facial features alone, which makes the necessity of 'iconic outfits' dubious.

But i think you are ignoring something else here -- the outfit of the character is just as instantly recognizable as "DA armour" as any of the 'iconic appearances' given to characters in DA2. Meaning if the concern of the designers is "we want people to instantly know it's a character from our IP... they already had that.

But outfits go a long ways towards expanding on a character's personal tastes.. you can tell from Isabela's lack of pants that she's a daring woman who doesn't care what others think of her and you can tell from Varric's tailored jacket that he is a man of taste and class.. can you tell these things simply by looking at their faces?

I'm quite content with playing with the characters as their creators intended them to be played with rather than invent some crazy RP scenarios in my head that run completely contrary to what is happening on my screen. But maybe I'm weird for playing the games for story more than for a personal RP experience that I could easily get in other games.

I can learn everything you just said by talking to the associated character.

I do not play Hawke, or the Warden.  I play the party.  Just as sure as I can walk my characters through a flame trap, I should be able to change what they wear because I am not a character in the game, I am the party.

[Dragoonlordz]

Regardless I gave my solution to the issue here.

I'm going to leave it there and go do some real life work instead. This thread is beginning to go around in circles now (imho).

[Harid]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Harid wrote...

Seems like I was right when I stated that Bioware was stating "We like it our way, deal with it."

I get that vibe too. I also got the vibe that "best of DA:O and DA2" really just meant DA2 slightly polished to leave out most complained about flaws.

Still, Bioware can't really make a game they themselves don't believe in, as per instructions . Such will never work. They may be very misguided, but they do have to think they understand the game they're going to create.
But DA2:2 could still be a market disaster. In any case it needs an entirely new mindset from the customers. I'm not sure I'll go there, but I won't decide before time.

It's going to sell less than it should directly because of Dragon Age 2, so them following Dragon Age 2's philosophies seem misguided to me at best.

[David Gaider]

Harid wrote...
Seems like I was right when I stated that Bioware was stating "We like it our way, deal with it."

Are you guys even reaching out outside of these forums to see if people like this idea, given it's contentious, even here? Do you even care?

Why do you care if I want to give Fenris a sword and a shield. or Aveline a great sword? How does it remotely affect you? One of the things you stated you disliked about Origins was everyone looking the same come endgame, and now you are creating a system where that is going to occur in everyone's game across the board.

I'm not sure I can address this without descending into some kind of "no you didn't!/yes you did!" argument.

The only time we get to the "we like it our way" answer is when what someone wants is something diametrically opposed to what we intend to do. If that's the case, okay-- there's no other answer that we can give then, is there? We're looking for feedback, and that includes people with a wide variety of interests and agendas. If we answer these at all to say what we intend or do not intend, that inevitably leads to saying "no" to some things... and thus an accusation from some corners that we're not listening (because if we were listening, clearly we would be obeying). That can't really be helped.

Hopefully as we move forward you'll see what we intend more clearly, and judge for yourself whether we've listened enough or made something that appeals to you. I doubt it'll appeal to everyone equally, but that should really be a given. For our part, we'll just focus on making the best game we can. A good game will be good regardless of the specific features in it.

Modifié par David Gaider, 07 septembre 2011 - 08:58 .

[esper]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

esper wrote...

They can't sell altenertive companion outfit even if they wanted to, because if they did there is no way to change them. Mass effect had the loaylty system which allowed you to change between two armors and so bioware could sell more armors. They can't do that in dragon age, because the change is story driven and thus automatic. There is no companion warrobe to sell it in.

That's actually not true. Follower armors are real items that can exist in your inventory, and if you have more than one, you can swap them in and out.

The issue becomes that those follower armor items don't actually have any appearance attached to them. But that's easily scripted away.

But how would you swap them? You would have to add a toogle of something for the extra armor to be visble or not or else it would magically dissapear when the number two outfit comes in or the number two outfit would dissapear when you opened the chest. Once the companions gain their number 2 outfit number 1 magically disappears from the invatory
I am not saying that it is impossible to incomperate in the, but I doubt they would do it. The system doesn't seem to be designed to make alternative armors outfits. 

[hoorayforicecream]

Harid wrote...

I can learn everything you just said by talking to the associated character.

I do not play Hawke, or the Warden.  I play the party.  Just as sure as I can walk my characters through a flame trap, I should be able to change what they wear because I am not a character in the game, I am the party.

Then why do the party members approve or disapprove of choices you make?

[FieryDove]

leonia42 wrote...

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

"seeing Morrigan in any kind of Chantry robe just felt wrong to us"

Player: Tries to put chantry robes on Morrigan.
Morrigan: (voice) Wtf, I am not going to wear that ****!

Problem solved. And you also just got yerself a character with real personality outside dialogues and party banters.

Removing player choice altogether.. that's going to gain a lot of popularity around here.

That is where persuade comes in handy.

"Morrigan dear, you are all about power AND survival. You are an AW now...this armor will protect you and make you look badarse!"

Morrigan: "Ok you convinced me."

Modifié par FieryDove, 07 septembre 2011 - 09:02 .

[Leonia]

So.. if the devs took your ability to control your party members in combat away (like Mass Effect) maybe you'd realise that these AREN'T really party-based games, the only character that belongs to you (and that's rather loose given some pre-defined factors) is the Playable Character.

Your party members? They're NPCs: NON-playable characters. It's like.. playing Republic Commando.. you can issue commands in combat but they're not your personal units to fully customise as you see fit.

Modifié par leonia42, 07 septembre 2011 - 08:59 .

[mesmerizedish]

esper wrote...

But how would you swap them? You would have to add a toogle of something for the extra armor to be visble or not or else it would magically dissapear when the number two outfit comes in or the number two outfit would dissapear when you opened the chest. Once the companions gain their number 2 outfit number 1 magically disappears from the invatory
I am not saying that it is impossible to incomperate in the, but I doubt they would do it. The system doesn't seem to be designed to make alternative armors outfits. 

Um... what?

I don't really have any clue what you're trying to say. You can swap them in and out just like Hawke can with her normal armors.

[esper]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

esper wrote...

But how would you swap them? You would have to add a toogle of something for the extra armor to be visble or not or else it would magically dissapear when the number two outfit comes in or the number two outfit would dissapear when you opened the chest. Once the companions gain their number 2 outfit number 1 magically disappears from the invatory
I am not saying that it is impossible to incomperate in the, but I doubt they would do it. The system doesn't seem to be designed to make alternative armors outfits. 

Um... what?

I don't really have any clue what you're trying to say. You can swap them in and out just like Hawke can with her normal armors.

I can't. Perhaps I have bug. Once they gain a new outfit they are stuck with that.

[ipgd]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

ipgd wrote...

If it weren't for the tattoo and the fact we're on a Dragon Age forum right now, I doubt I'd immediately see Zevran. I'd probably see a LARPer.

You know I love you, but I think you might be going a little overboard here. First, the tattoo is as much a part of Zevran's character as Aveline's unique animations are of hers, or Isabela's bust is of hers. Taking it out of the equation is unfair cherrypicking. Second, even outside the context of Dragon Age, you would probably think "Zevran!" because you're a wild fangirl like I am, and I'm pretty sure I would recognize that as Zevran on the floor at Comic-Con.

If I saw someone with small breasts doing Isabela cosplay outside the context of Dragon Age and I were only an average fan instead of the sort that you and I actually are, I doubt I would recognize it as "Isabela!" any more than I would recognize that picture as Zevran without the tattoo and outside the context of Dragon Age.

It's kinda relevant because if he (she?) happened to be facing the other direction, I probably wouldn't notice. You're also underestimating the amount of elf LARPers in the world.

I'm also not saying it's not possible to make a character that is immediately recognizable solely through features above the neck (hello Solid Snake). I just think it is incredibly restrictive to basically cut the canvas of a character's visual design down to an incredibly small portion of the whole figure when parts of it can be just as if not more iconic than the face (hello Solid Snake's ass).

Seriously I could post just pictures of Snake's ass here and eveyone would understand. I want DA3's characters to have iconic asses.

[rak72]

Harid wrote...

Seems like I was right when I stated that Bioware was stating "We like it our way, deal with it."

Are you guys even reaching out outside of these forums to see if people like this idea, given it's contentious, even here? Do you even care?

Why do you care if I want to give Fenris a sword and a shield. or Aveline a great sword? How does it remotely affect you? One of the things you stated you disliked about Origins was everyone looking the same come endgame, and now you are creating a system where that is going to occur in everyone's game across the board.

Agreed.  I keep hearing about things not fitting their vision, but I play games to be entetained, not to find out what someones vision is.  Role playing my companians outfits is a lot more entertaining to me than staring at isabella's knockers.  If other people like to look at them thats great, but give us the option to switch ala morigan.  As it stands now, I'm also going to be dedicating my resources elsewhere.

Modifié par rak72, 07 septembre 2011 - 09:07 .