284 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Make DLC playable without buying the product it is attached to, and you would have a case. However, as long as it is basicly a patch of another product it stands with that product. If the plot doesn't make sense without Arrival DLC, then Arrival DLC is part of the plot and should have been part of core releases and not something you pay EXTRA for.

Did Mass Effect 2's plot make more sense with Arrival? I was under the impression that it occupied a completely different Reaper plan, while taking place in the setting of ME2. Simply put: the concept of expansions, dlc, etc, has been around for a while and quite a few have extended a game's storyline. The Frozen Throne, Brood War, Morrowind's Tribunal, Throne of Bhaal, Hordes of the Underdark, Mask of the Betrayer, WoW expansions. This is not some new concept to the gaming community.

Regardless,would your criticism suddenly disappear if Bioware copied Valve and released separate episodes? "Hey, we're releasing this 1-2 hour dlc as a separate installment". You're still left buying the dlc to understand the entire storyline. Function-wise, nothing changes beyond any person being able to purchase the dlc, which leaves your argument in the same spot. The truth is, I'd rather not have every expansion to a game be the equivalent of Baldur's Gate: Tales of the Sword Coast.

Imagine ME1 and they ended the game after you did virmire, feros, novaria and Therum. Ilos and the 'real' ending was then released as a paid DLC. Would you consider this proper too? I for sure wouldn't, but your claims are opening up for such marketing scenarios which I can only protest against.

That depends. How is Mass Effect itself concluded, without dlc? Do the designers *literally* cut the content during the Normandy lockdown? I could complain. But I'll be complaining about the crappy ending, like any other game (Ex: Halo 2's crap ending). Then, with the dlc, I'll applaud Bioware for an appropriate conclusion to their storyline.

My complaints will all be related to whether or not I'm satisfied with the product as released, primarily because any developer has the power to decide where to cut the storyline.  Hell, I might even applaud the dlc for fixing the crap ending of Mass Effect, much like how I wish Eidos would release a dlc to continue the weak ending of Human Revolution.

Modifié par Il Divo, 10 septembre 2011 - 04:54 .

[Reiella]

 I don't remember punching Verner in the face....  Oh well.

[DarkPsylocke26]

Me I always do the Arrival after the base mission. I think it makes more sense to do that.

[Balek-Vriege]

I find the reason why it's "forced upon people" plot wise is really quite simple:

- The Reapers have found a means to arrive by the alpha relay
- That happens to be a couple months after ME2 canon wise (although the DLC allows us to play it during ME2 plot, with *spoiler* Harbinger Collector appearing instead of the Reaper Harbinger).
- About a year or two before Mass Effect 3 I think.
- If you don't blow up the base, the Reapers invade post-ME2 and there's no way anyone, not even Shepard, is ready for that.
- Therefore if Arrival happens, everyone dies.

So plot wise and the way it's written, it perfectly makes sense that if Shepard doesn't stop Arrival by killing 300,000 Batarians in the process, there is no Mass Effect 3 (just like Shepard dieing in Suicide Mission). The moral argument doesn't factor into it as a choice really, because if you don't stop the events of Arrival or if Shepard somehow ignores them, the Reapers arrive early in a way that probably ensures victory.

From a "Well I don't like paid for DLC" argument, I never really get that. The whole point of the gaming industry (and commercial enterprise) has always been to produce a product (Game) that there's demand for, sell it and make profit. Producing a product takes investment (programmers, level designers, voice acting, etc.), which costs the producer money. If a product is very successful, they can try to sell additional product is there's demand (DLC, Expansions, Sequels). Sure they can give it away for free (DLC), but if it doesn't boost sales of the main product (Game) enough, it will be a net loss in profit. If there's enough demand that most consumers would buy the additional product, why not charge for the work/money invested in it?

If we the consumer don't like any of the above we can choose not to buy the additional product (especially since it's not required). We are not forced to buy it. If you think it's too expensive, wait until it comes on sale or again, don't buy it.

It's a very old argument (older than DLCs themselves) when expansion packs were the norm which cost like 30-40 bucks when the original game cost about $50-60. The same question always came up: "Why wasn't this part of the original game and why isn't it free?"

Answer: "Because it wasn't part of the main game, is additional content and isn't free for the same reasons why most things in life aren't free and why people charge for things."

[Someone With Mass]

Arrival wasn't even made by the same studio.

ME3 will do something for those who haven't play the DLCs, anyway.

[Arppis]

Reiella wrote...

 I don't remember punching Verner in the face....  Oh well.

Putting a gun to his face. That's what he says and never did it...

[Mann42]

SalsaDMA wrote...
Make DLC playable without buying the product it is attached to, and you would have a case. However, as long as it is basicly a patch of another product it stands with that product. If the plot doesn't make sense without Arrival DLC, then Arrival DLC is part of the plot and should have been part of core releases and not something you pay EXTRA for.

Imagine ME1 and they ended the game after you did virmire, feros, novaria and Therum. Ilos and the 'real' ending was then released as a paid DLC. Would you consider this proper too? I for sure wouldn't, but your claims are opening up for such marketing scenarios which I can only protest against.

So, you basically just want content for free. You believe that your initial purchase of a game entitles you to all DLC released for that game, for free. 

I'm going to pull out a quote of yours from EA, back when you seemed to respect it.

SalsaDMA wrote...
Hawkins also wanted to properly credit and compensate the talent that produced games, giving them the same respect that artists in other media enjoyed. He envisioned Electronic Arts as a publishing company that would be known for its quality and professionalism, working with the best independent talent to make the computer game industry equivalent with film, books, or music.

I also believe you should properly credit and compensate the talent that produce games. When a company puts in extra time and effort to create MORE content, I believe it is only right for them to expect compensation and credit for it. When ~20+ developers work 8 to 12 hour days for 3 months on DLC, I do not expect the result of their work to be for free, and apparently, neither did old EA.

Old EA also wanted to bring the games industry to be equivalent with film, books, and music. Funny, if I go buy a movie, it doesn't entitle me to any internet/tv/magazine exclusives based on that movie. If I buy an album, I don't get that artist's next single for free. Why should the games industry slave away for you for free, without compensation for its work? 

Its disengenuous to claim that they released Mass Effect 2 unfinished. It was a complete game, with a complete story. Each DLC is its own product, its own self contained story related to the original game. In the world of books, they would be novellas. In the world of music, they would be singles. You don't get those for free, even if they tie into an existing work. 

As for that old magazine ad you posted, "Can computers make you cry?". I know that Bioware games can get me close, and every new game they come out with I find myself laughing, smiling, teeth-gnashing, and getting engaged emotionally with stories and characters in new ways. Even Arrival, despite its flaws, provided me with a feeling of heroic helplessness, being forced to sacrifice the few for the many with literally no options. It was worth the price to me.

They will probably provide players that didn't play Arrival with a special introduction, and that's great, but your belief that you are entitled to the hard work of others for free, just because it's going to be mentioned in the sequel, doesn't make it so. 

Modifié par nexworks, 10 septembre 2011 - 06:13 .

[Chewin]

Arppis wrote...

Reiella wrote...

 I don't remember punching Verner in the face....  Oh well.

Putting a gun to his face. That's what he says and never did it...

That's if you choose the renegade option. It's a bug, where the paragon option won't work. Here's how you can fix it.

[SalsaDMA]

nexworks wrote...

So, you basically just want content for free. You believe that your initial purchase of a game entitles you to all DLC released for that game, for free. 

Wrong, and I did not say that. So maybe you should stop asuming things and actually read what I wrote?

What I DID say, was that plot relevant material that the CORE plotline in the game series follows should be part of the CORE releases, and not something you pay extra for.

They could make a million BDtS style DLCS, and I wouldn't bat an eye. I might be wondering how they would incorporate the results of all those DLCs in a meaningfull way in a later release if they had promised a later release to import the saves from the game to make a single epic storyline, though. Same goes for all the cosmetic and weaponry dlcs. If it sells and doesn't affect the primary plot, I'm fine with it.

In short, I expect that when I pay for a product I get the full product, and not only part of it just so they can sell me the rest of it later on. If arrival is meant to be part of what happens in ME2 as canon, then it SHOULD be part of ME2, and not something you have to pay extra for.

[Balek-Vriege]

SalsaDMA wrote...

nexworks wrote...

So, you basically just want content for free. You believe that your initial purchase of a game entitles you to all DLC released for that game, for free. 

Wrong, and I did not say that. So maybe you should stop asuming things and actually read what I wrote?

What I DID say, was that plot relevant material that the CORE plotline in the game series follows should be part of the CORE releases, and not something you pay extra for.

They could make a million BDtS style DLCS, and I wouldn't bat an eye. I might be wondering how they would incorporate the results of all those DLCs in a meaningfull way in a later release if they had promised a later release to import the saves from the game to make a single epic storyline, though. Same goes for all the cosmetic and weaponry dlcs. If it sells and doesn't affect the primary plot, I'm fine with it.

In short, I expect that when I pay for a product I get the full product, and not only part of it just so they can sell me the rest of it later on. If arrival is meant to be part of what happens in ME2 as canon, then it SHOULD be part of ME2, and not something you have to pay extra for.

ME2 was a full product.  Its plot started and ended with the Collectors kidnapping Humans to make a Reaper for reasons heavily hinted at.  It has tens of hours of gameplay and lots of additional replayability just like ME1.  If it ended there with no DLC, one couldn't say the game was not worth the money content wise.

ME3 plot is the final arrival of the Reapers and the battle between the Galaxy and them for survival.

Arrival's plot is in between.  Shepard pretty much stumbles on a means of how the Reapers can get back with the Alpha Relay and they're almost ready to use it.  It is part of ME2 because it uses the game, but could have just as easily been the beginning of ME3 or a DLC for it.  It happens regardless of the ME2 plot and is seperate from it.  Arrival isn't the "real ending to ME2."  If it was, then having the option to complete it before ME2 is done would be weird for an ending wouldn't it?

Arrival is also a core release since it's official, canonically correct material added after the fact as additional content.  You're the one who has decided a DLC cannot deal with main plot or is somehow wrong.  That doesn't erase the additional time, effort and the money invested in this new content.

A DLC is a small expansion pack or booster pack (the name for DLC before DLC).  By your reasoning even the novels shouldn't be done (they deal with the main plot) and rather should all be included ingame as well.

[aquamutt]

so bioware's damned if they do and damned if they don't

[Kyria Nyriese]

aquamutt wrote...

so bioware's damned if they do and damned if they don't

Pretty much

[Drunken_Soviet]

I GOT A QUARIAN PREGNANT...... I don't remeber that.


Sorry, couldn't resist

[Wynne]

Nicely said about EA, Nexworks.

As for Arrival--I don't get the controversy. If you didn't play the DLC, you will find out about what your Shepard did before the opening events at the start of ME3, much like at the start of ME2 you find out about what your Shepard did after ME1. Remember, new players won't have a clue about Arrival either--this WILL be exposited in game, possibly quite dramatically. It has to be or the trial on Earth would be confusing and dull for anyone not clued in--that's not how they're doing things, which people have actually been complaining about in other quarters.

[Fiery Phoenix]

DarkPsylocke26 wrote...

Me I always do the Arrival after the base mission. I think it makes more sense to do that.

Doing it before that literally subverts the entire (and already weak) main plot of ME2. It was clearly meant to be the last thing you do.

[KotorEffect3]

aquamutt wrote...

so bioware's damned if they do and damned if they don't

If bioware gave away cash people would complain that is too heavy.

[AnAccountWithNoName]

Perhaps there should be an option in ME3, when talking to the judges, to say that you don't remember killing 300,000 batarians.

[Get Magna Carter]

not having a home-internet connection I can't get the DLC so I want a disc release with arrival (say, as part of an ME2 GOTY/Ultimate edition)

[KotorEffect3]

Get Magna Carter wrote...

not having a home-internet connection I can't get the DLC so I want a disc release with arrival (say, as part of an ME2 GOTY/Ultimate edition)

In all honesty they should do that.  I don't know why more video game companies don't try to find ways to make DLC content available to people that don't have home internet access.

[littlezack]

AnAccountWithNoName wrote...

Perhaps there should be an option in ME3, when talking to the judges, to say that you don't remember killing 300,000 batarians.

Yes, that defense always works in court.

[essarr71]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Get Magna Carter wrote...

not having a home-internet connection I can't get the DLC so I want a disc release with arrival (say, as part of an ME2 GOTY/Ultimate edition)

In all honesty they should do that.  I don't know why more video game companies don't try to find ways to make DLC content available to people that don't have home internet access.

Easy answer is the few who don't have home internet access in the game market is so low now it wouldn't be cost effective to make em.

Best hope is a all-inclusive edition released looong after the initial release, like DA: Ultimate edition.  So there might be hope, seeing as Bioware is still pushing those out.

[Fantazm1978]

it happened get over it.

[Deganis76]

SalsaDMA wrote...

nexworks wrote...

So, you basically just want content for free. You believe that your initial purchase of a game entitles you to all DLC released for that game, for free. 

Wrong, and I did not say that. So maybe you should stop asuming things and actually read what I wrote?

What I DID say, was that plot relevant material that the CORE plotline in the game series follows should be part of the CORE releases, and not something you pay extra for.

They could make a million BDtS style DLCS, and I wouldn't bat an eye. I might be wondering how they would incorporate the results of all those DLCs in a meaningfull way in a later release if they had promised a later release to import the saves from the game to make a single epic storyline, though. Same goes for all the cosmetic and weaponry dlcs. If it sells and doesn't affect the primary plot, I'm fine with it.

In short, I expect that when I pay for a product I get the full product, and not only part of it just so they can sell me the rest of it later on. If arrival is meant to be part of what happens in ME2 as canon, then it SHOULD be part of ME2, and not something you have to pay extra for.

I don't even know why people are debating this.  All DLC is canon, regardless of your individual opinion on the subject.  Move on, buy ME3, and love it.  I know I will!

[XyleJKH]

Get over it.... Its called a plot... Idiot

[Bcuz]

Posting in a legendary thread.