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[Omega4RelayResident]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

As far as i understands Overlord there were no Geth on Aite only platforms - which David could control, But thinking that David could control Geth is like thinking you can mind control anybody just by taking a drive in their car.

I am lost... I cant see the connection you are trying to make.

The Geth are programs - the platforms are just the programs means of getting around.

But the programs inside have sentience... just like a computer there are hardwired programs that cant be "deleted" so a single geth program has no more than animal intelligence. True those Geth did not have the Intelligence of truly networked Geth but there was still something there. It was never stated that those Geth were completely devoid of any Geth programs. They were non functional... in the case of Geth when they "die" as a race Legion stated that their collective memories would become uploaded to a storage mainframe. So technically there are no active programs but the "brain" is still intact to a degree. Not a huge degree. I had Legion with me on the mission and he offered no arguments against killing the Geth platforms. They were without power for a long time I interpreted.

Think of it like as if you had a heart attack. Your body died. Your brain is still active enough that if you get revived within 5 minutes of the moment of death you end up suffering minimal brain damage. For Geth that timeframe could be astronomically longer. So by bringing those Geth online you are reviving them and now they are hooked up to a VI that is hooked up to a scared autistic person. I believe there was still some sentience in those Geth platforms.... otherwise they were no more than Mechs..... why study how to control Mechs?.... we alreay have those.

[Omega4RelayResident]

wiggles89 wrote...

But you just defended Cerberus actions using a combined human VI intelligence to brainwash the Geth

Context is important. With that sentence you quoted ad nauseam Aeowyn was addressing Legion's loyalty mission, not Project Overlord. That means there's no contradiction in what she was arguing.

Yes but that is his counter argument against him keeping Project Overlord operational.... which is the same thing as mind controlling the Geth. Why do I have to spell it out. It is a direct contradiction.

The only difference is that the mind controlled Geth would either be controlled by Cerberus or Legion's True Geth. Project Overlord is supposed to be the exact polar action.

Think of it from the programer perspective. Its a heck of a lot easier to release Project Overlord and use that to explain why there are only three futures for the Geth, controlled by Legion's Geth, controlled by Cerberus, or Reaper-vaporized. Instead of comming up with a fourth choice that would have to be present IF the DLC was not released.

I am arguing that I trust Legion's judgement and that the heretic Geth should be returned to Legion's people. In that same respect I do not want Cerberus to have a way to control the Geth because I trust Legion.

Aeowyn is arguing that he does not trust Legion. He blows up the heretic Geth. Then he condones Project Overlord which is a way to brainwash the Geth. He stated that brainwashing the Geth wont help against the Reapers. However he just condoned a Cerberus project that is about brainwashing the Geth.

This argument boils down to Legion vs TIM. I was pointing out How he actually managed to contradict him self in his own post.

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THIS ACTUALLY NEEDS TO BE SPELLED OUT!

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 08 septembre 2011 - 11:06 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

As far as i understands Overlord there were no Geth on Aite only platforms - which David could control, But thinking that David could control Geth is like thinking you can mind control anybody just by taking a drive in their car.

I am lost... I cant see the connection you are trying to make.

The Geth are programs - the platforms are just the programs means of getting around.

But the programs inside have sentience... just like a computer there are hardwired programs that cant be "deleted" so a single geth program has no more than animal intelligence. True those Geth did not have the Intelligence of truly networked Geth but there was still something there. It was never stated that those Geth were completely devoid of any Geth programs. They were non functional... in the case of Geth when they "die" as a race Legion stated that their collective memories would become uploaded to a storage mainframe. So technically there are no active programs but the "brain" is still intact to a degree. Not a huge degree. I had Legion with me on the mission and he offered no arguments against killing the Geth platforms. They were without power for a long time I interpreted.

Think of it like as if you had a heart attack. Your body died. Your brain is still active enough that if you get revived within 5 minutes of the moment of death you end up suffering minimal brain damage. For Geth that timeframe could be astronomically longer. So by bringing those Geth online you are reviving them and now they are hooked up to a VI that is hooked up to a scared autistic person. I believe there was still some sentience in those Geth platforms.... otherwise they were no more than Mechs..... why study how to control Mechs?.... we alreay have those.

Because nobody knows how the Geth works, Hell Shepard didn't even know until Legion told him/her, The rest of the galaxy including Cerberus thinks that Geth = Platforms.

But they don't work like that, The Geth have evolved since they were created by the quarrians, Geth of time of ME 1/2 primary resides in sever hubs and when needed they take a platform out for a spin and if they platform goes Boom they just upload to the server again.

Geth ship crashes.
Geth 1 :"F***".
Geth 2 :"Man you're the worst pilot ever".
Geth 1:"Yeah yeah nag nag".
Geth 2:"Hitpoints are below 10%.. this bird won't fly again".
Geth 1:"Upload?".
Geth 2:"Yup.. ALIGHT PEOPLE RESPAWN AT BASE"
Geth 5:"Awww man this is my third respawn this week.. i need a respec".

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 08 septembre 2011 - 11:12 .

[GodWood]

Xen 'em and use them as expendable bots against the Reapers.


Everyone wins.

[sorentoft]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Geth just want to upload to the megastructure that has been under construction for 264 years now.

This. They spent 300 years leaving organics alone. Why would they change their minds now?

Exactly. Geth make their own future.  Right now the goal of most geth is to build and upload to the megastructure. Unless organics get involved it does not involve them.

[Kusy]

I'd let them babysit my kids. If I had kids.

[Anacronian Stryx]

GodWood wrote...

Xen 'em and use them as expendable bots against the Reapers.


Everyone wins.

Heh i doubt it will be necessary to Xen'em, If you can convince the Geth that are needed as expendable bots then i see no reason why they shouldn't comply, As long as their server hubs are safe they are pretty much immortal, And as long as the production of platforms can keep up we might just have the most perfect renewable suicide army.

[GodWood]

LookingGlass93 wrote...
This. They spent 300 years leaving organics alone.

Not really.
Legion's story of them trolling the salarians comes to mind.

Anacronian Stryx wrote...
Heh i doubt it will be necessary to Xen'em, If you can convince the Geth that are needed as expendable bots then i see no reason why they shouldn't comply, As long as their server hubs are safe they are pretty much immortal, And as long as the production of platforms can keep up we might just have the most perfect renewable suicide army.

Not a bad idea.

Modifié par GodWood, 08 septembre 2011 - 11:23 .

[Aeowyn]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

But you just defended Cerberus actions using a combined human VI intelligence to brainwash the Geth

Context is important. With that sentence you quoted ad nauseam Aeowyn was addressing Legion's loyalty mission, not Project Overlord. That means there's no contradiction in what she was arguing.

Yes but that is his counter argument against him keeping Project Overlord operational.... which is the same thing as mind controlling the Geth. Why do I have to spell it out. It is a direct contradiction.
!

Really? As far as I'm aware I never stated if I keep project Overlord running or not. All I said was that I thought it was a success. And I'm a she.
Please don't make assumptions.

[Someone With Mass]

GodWood wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...
This. They spent 300 years leaving organics alone.

Not really.
Legion's story of them trolling the salarians comes to mind.

Legion trolling the extranet is also a nice bit.

[Tilted_Logic]

Rewriting the Geth leaves me feeling uneasy, but the logical part of my mind dictates they can be trusted. I'll go into a deeper explanation to hopefully alleviate any chance of association with a sociopathic disorder:

The Geth are inherently intelligent programs, and as such Legion describes their allegiance to The Old Machines as a computing error. The problem we as humans have with trusting the Heretics after they have been converted is inate to our thinking; does a leopard change its' spots? How can someone forcibly converted to an alternate viewpoint not contain clandestine feelings? While valid points, when it comes to the Geth, if Arthur C. Clarke has taught me anything it's that we cannot judge other species - or machines - by our own moral reasonings.

The Geth have no motive to return to their heretical ways; the rewrite in ME2 wasn't a suppression of their original beliefs, but rather a complete overhaul of what is right and wrong to them. The Geth do not have underlying programming or desires to be one way or the other, they accept their code however it's written. A proper analogy would be a computer rejecting a change in operating system; a computer does what it's programmed to, it doesn't prefer Windows over Linux (Windows are structural weaknesses.. har har har....). It's a matter of editing the programming to say "I like vanilla ice cream" instead of "I like chocolate ice cream".

I'm not proposing the Heretics will be without reaction when the Reapers return, but their response will be synonymous to that of the Geth who's disposition lies in favour of Shepard.

To those of you alluding to the Morning War, understand that any species when faced with destruction has one of two options: 1. Willingly allow the opposition to overtake you; in dire circumstances (point in case, the Geth) potentially resulting in the termination of your species. 2. Retaliate.
More prominent than the desire for knowledge, love or power is that of survival. In any species if you are not surviving, nothing further can be achieved. It can be postulated (and further confirmed by Legion) that the Geth initially had minimal desire to harm their creators, but when faced with abatement (which in turn leads to decremented intellect among Geth) they chose option 2. The same scenario will occur with the return of the Reapers in Mass Effect 3, however Legion and the true Geth have already disputed the faultlessness of Sovereign and as such their reaction to the encounter in ME3 can be accurately gauged to reside in humanity's' favour.

The Heretics are now indistinguishable from the True Geth - they are one in the same. You cannot doubt their motives without doubting Legion, just as you cannot proclaim that logical thinking equates to senseless muder.

[sorentoft]

Someone With Mass wrote...

GodWood wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...
This. They spent 300 years leaving organics alone.

Not really.
Legion's story of them trolling the salarians comes to mind.

Legion trolling the extranet is also a nice bit.

At least it is just harmless study.

Also Legion bought this:

Geth Attack: Eden Prime Fundraising Edition:
Donation Level: Ultra Platinum
Player Score: 0 (Purchased but not played)

Modifié par sorentoft, 08 septembre 2011 - 11:47 .

[Omega4RelayResident]

Aeowyn wrote...

Really? As far as I'm aware I never stated if I keep project Overlord running or not. All I said was that I thought it was a success. And I'm a she.
Please don't make assumptions.

Read the original post and not someones snip from from my post. Its on page 4.

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 08 septembre 2011 - 11:45 .

[Aeowyn]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Really? As far as I'm aware I never stated if I keep project Overlord running or not. All I said was that I thought it was a success. And I'm a she.
Please don't make assumptions.

Read the original post and not someones snip from from my post. Its on page 4.

I read your original post which was equally stupid and making assumptions based on a quote taken out of its context. And I repeat, I never stated if I keep project Overlord running or not.

But hey, go ahead and assume that you're being "Punk'd" and take quotes out of its context.

[Fenris_13]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

3 about 3: TIM wants to protect humanity? The hundred or so dead humans I just tripped over on my way into the Atlas Station where Overlord is housed may say differently. You combined an organic and synthetic mind! Sounds like TIM was making a Reaper... oh damn... now I have gone and done it. Reapers are organic and synthetic creatures combined. Its a part of making a Reaper. The brainwashing of the Geth via Overlord doesnt sound like INDOCTRINATION to me at all... I am sorry you are correct. Neat little coincidence that TIM was looking for the CB where they happen to make Reapers. Soon in your neighborhood the Ford Reaper made in colaboration with Cerberus.

I'm sorry, but what the f*ck are you talking about? I can't take your argument seriously.

[Arkitekt]

No one can be trusted.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Aeowyn wrote...

I read your original post which was equally stupid and making assumptions based on a quote taken out of its context. And I repeat, I never stated if I keep project Overlord running or not.

But hey, go ahead and assume that you're being "Punk'd" and take quotes out of its context.

Now you are backpedaling.... I love how people argue in favor of an idea.... then they said they never did it. Whatever you say.

Anyway everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Fenris_13 wrote...

I'm sorry, but what the f*ck are you talking about? I can't take your argument seriously.

I was trying to point out that TIM has not limit on what is ethical or moral. In addition I do not know what that sneaky bum is up to and I dont trust him.

[Aeowyn]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

I read your original post which was equally stupid and making assumptions based on a quote taken out of its context. And I repeat, I never stated if I keep project Overlord running or not.

But hey, go ahead and assume that you're being "Punk'd" and take quotes out of its context.

Now you are backpedaling.... I love how people argue in favor of an idea.... then they said they never did it. Whatever you say.

Anyway everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Saying that Project Overlord was a success and saying if I kept it or not are two different things.
But you seem to lack to capacity to understand that, so you're not worth my time. Have fun making assumptions, I'm sure that will help you out in the future.

[JHCRANE14]

We need the Geth's help to destroy the Reapers and then we need to destroy the Geth.

[Arken]

mineralica wrote...

Can anyone be trusted for something more than stopping Reapers invasion? Can rachni be trusted for not starting a new rachni war? Can quarians be trusted for not attacking geth and provoking them on next galactic war? Can krogans be trusted to not to attempt to build a krogan empire - or at least for not trying to conquer the rest of species? Can turians be trusted for not setting their military doctrine to everyone? Can Cerberus be trusted at all after their amount of failed experiments? Can asari be trusted to not to finally eliminate all other species via "asari parent + any other parent = asari children"? Can salarians be trusted to not to assume that humanity is dangerously aggressive and unleash new genophage?

There are always plenty of such questions, but several risks should be taken.

Quoted for truth within the story.

None of the races deserve to be trusted any more than the others. Everyone is out for something and they will do whatever it takes to get this something. All of these species have flaws.

Before I continue I will say that this thread exist to allow users to discuss the topic, their opinion on the geth and loyalty, not to debate retcons, continuity, or Cerberus. To those who are only posting in this thread simply to continue an off-topic argument I ask , as a fellow forum goer, that you bring the discussion to a PM, start a new thread, or simply stop. You are derailing the topic. The original poster never even brought up Cerberus or continuity in the first post. Obviously these were just side topics that were not meant to take center stage of so many posts. People just let themselves get a little out of hand without realizing how far they were taking it.

Let's not discuss Cerberus, or continuity in a discussion which is purely about whether geth can be trusted or not.


Tilted Logic makes a very good point in the discussion as well. I agree with Tilted Logic on each point that the geth have no motivation to harm anyone.

Whenever the geth would kill someone there was motivation. They posses free will and therefore are as dangerous as any other species. If we have learned anything about the geth we know that they are advanced enough to continue evolving. Their evolution is in their understanding of emotion without losing their understanding of logic.

In a way Legion is an example of a geth who is slowly becoming a genius version of a human. Geth learns to feel confusion, enjoys recreational activities, and even teases others online. Yet even with these human qualities Legion remains just as logical as any geth platform should be. Legion maintains a firm grip of logical thinking while still beginning to understand the other half of sentience, the ability to feel.

If geth were to understand sentience more while retaining their intelligence then I honestly think they really are the most trust worthy allies. Geth are also a secluded race. Once the Reaper threat is gone then the most likely thing is for the geth to go back to their bases. They will no longer have a reason or desire to interact with organics. The geth hive mind is what makes them such a reliable race. The geth work as a whole and will not allow heretics. If another error occurs then the geth will feel compelled to correct it.

I think it is their lack of ambitions that make the geth the most trust worthy. We don't have to worry about them attacking the Citadel, because they don't even care about being a Citadel species.  We don't have to worry about them starting a war with an organic race, because the geth are hermits who will never venture out to interact with other species. The galaxy as a whole doesn't even need to care that the geth exist.

Only the quarians are a potential threat to the geth. That's only if they are dumb enough to go to war and not just communicate with the highly logical understanding race of machines. Hell Legion pretty much said the geth don't really need the quarian homeworld. They even respect quarians to a degree as creators. The quarians could just ask for their planet and the geth would most likely say yes. I say most likely, because I personally can not think of a logical reason why the geth would care if the quarians went back to their homeworld.

[sorentoft]

mineralica wrote...

Only the quarians are a potential threat to the geth. That's only if they are dumb enough to go to war and not just communicate with the highly logical understanding race of machines. Hell Legion pretty much said the geth don't really need the quarian homeworld. They even respect quarians to a degree as creators. The quarians could just ask for their planet and the geth would most likely say yes. I say most likely, because I personally can not think of a logical reason why the geth would care if the quarians went back to their homeworld.

Maybe the Creators would want to use the world to increase their numbers and then strike at Geth, but there is no logical reason why. Creators seem unwilling to use diplomacy though, if they did it might work. Geth do not want to fight organics, Creators want their homeworld. It seems a reasonable compromise.

[eye basher]

As always the smart money says ''don't trust anyone''.