122 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Hawke has a tendency of being extremely passive in the story: Hawke doesn't do anything when he realizes Petrice tried to start a religious war and let's her go - allowing her and her templar to murder people, warrior and rogue Hawke simply stand by while Knight-Captain Cullen takes Bethany away, he never uses his status or wealth when he becomes a human noble except to purchase a mansion, he doesn't investigate the incriminating hand-written note he finds in Quentin's lair, he doesn't do anything about Meredith's dictatorship for three years until he stumbles on First Enchanter Orsino trying to rally people against Meredith's reign, he stands by doing nothing while Grace murders Ser Thrask right in front of him, and in the Legacy DLC Hawke will simply let Larius walk away despite his concerns about the changes in Larius, i.e. sounding exactly like the Magister that he recently killed.

Across seven years, Hawke is reactive, and I'm hoping future DLC (and any possible expansion) will allow Hawke to be proactive. Some people see Hawke as having dim intelligence because of certain actions that he takes or doesn't take, and some see him as nothing but reactive given how he lets dangerous people walk away and doesn't do anything in many instances (like the ones provided above). I'm not interested in seeing more of passive Hawke in future DLC. I'd like to see a proactive Hawke who demonstrates intelligence and doesn't let dangerous people simply walk away because The Plot Dictates.

Is anyone else interested in a seeing proactive Hawke in future additions to Dragon Age 2?

[whykikyouwhy]

Maybe this is a difference between M!Hawke and F!Hawke. I felt that my F!Hawke exercised her intellect quite well and wasn't very passive at all. Hmm...

[Collider]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Maybe this is a difference between M!Hawke and F!Hawke.

I can't say that I agree.

Modifié par Collider, 08 septembre 2011 - 03:09 .

[whykikyouwhy]

@Collider - I was just thinking out loud.

But I really didn't feel as though Hawke was overly passive. Maybe it breaks down to interpretation, expectation, head canon and filling in the gaps for those scenes we aren't witness to - or some combination thereof. To incorporate as many possible story paths/arcs that people may want for certain quest or plot points might be near impossible, or might hinder the core story being told.

When it comes down to it, I look at the game as a library book of sorts - it's an adventure I get to play in and mold, to a degree, but when it comes down to it, I don't own the book. It's on loan. So to some extent, I just need to move along as the chapters progress in order for me to see how the story ends.

This may not be a viewpoint shared by many, but it's just how I see it. *shrug*

[Addai]

I am not interested in seeing Hawke again, period. No DLC can substantially alter the base game.

[Aradace]

I didnt find my male hawke to be overly passive either. *shrugs* Guess it all has to do with if you're playing a "tactful" "Snarky" or "Agressive" Hawke as to how it comes off?

@Addai - You probably wont.  It's been said that we'll most likely have a new protagonist for the next game.  So, we know it's most likely not Hawke, or "the warden".  I dont care who it is tbqh so long as it's not Orlesian lol.

Modifié par Aradace, 08 septembre 2011 - 06:42 .

[BigEvil]

You only used pro-active three times for this week's thread. I'm disappointed, this topic about wanting Hawke to be pro-active isn't pro-active enough!

Still, it is something of a problem for the game, even though I don't want it taken as far as you clearly do, Hawke being a bit more pro-active would have been good. I hope that some of the story DLC to come gives us such an opportunity, but I won't be terribly disappointed if it doesn't as long as I get an enjoyable story.

Being pro-active though, it's something I think isn't handled particularly well by any games, or at least none I've played (that I remember). There is always someone else giving you a quest or mission, and it's rare that there is an opportunity for truly pro-active investigation of something. I really cannot think of any examples myself, perhaps others have some. Really if previous cRPGs had been very pro-active I would have knifed Jon Irenicus in the back while he was distracted talking to those cowled wizards in the market place after escaping from his dungeon. Or sent Leliana and Zevran to assassinate Loghain after I had assured their loyalty while I went to Redcliffe.

I wonder if they gave us so many options to do things pro-actively, would we really be acting pro-actively? If they give us an option in dialogue to kill Petrice after Sheparding Wolves rather than letting her walk away, is that truly pro-active from the player's point of view since the option was presented to us rather than us deciding that was what we would do without that presentation.

Wonder twin powers activate! Form of a pro-active protagonist!

[TheJediSaint]

I take issue with the notion of Hawke not being an active protagonist. From my experience in the game, Hawke was the only character who got things done.

It was up to Hawke to gather enough money for the deep roads expedition, Hawke was the point man/woman on dealing with the Qunari, it was Hawke who was directly involved in resolving the crisis between mages and templars.

Every time Hawke was in a position to do something, he/she did it at the direction of the player. All the points of inactivity that people are point out are not examples of Hawke being passive, they are examples of Hawke not having the power to change the situation.

I think the real issue for many players, when they are say Hawke is passive, is that they weren't given the power to do whatever they want. Unlike with the Warden form DAO, Hawke does not have any kind of extraordinary authority at the start. He/she has to EARN that authority by becoming Champion.

So I ask this question, is it better for a player character to start with the ability to change the word from the start, such as the Warden? Or, is better for the player to earn that over the course of the game, like with Hawke?

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 08 septembre 2011 - 08:16 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

TheJediSaint wrote...

So I ask this question, is it better for a player character to start with the ability to change the word from the start, such as the Warden? Or, is better for the player to earn that over the course of the game, like with Hawke?

All Hawke did was earn the title of Champion of Kirkwall, which they got by making the qunari go away, one way or another. Beyond that, they just killed alot of people.

The Warden did not come with the ability to change the world, nor did they succeed in changing it completely. They could, however, take action and attempt to influence events either directly around them, or make choices that had unforseen and far reaching consequences, even if that wasn't the original intention. While at the end of the game, the Blight is always ended, the aftermath of the numerous choices to get there are different.

Hawke was in a position to  do more than they did, yet the game never allowed for hawke to do anything to influence or act on alot of things they should have. I don't care about not being able to stop Anders, or to stop the war period. That isn't necessary. But being able to say, have made a series of choices that could have had added alot more variety to the ending then siding with A or B, and getting your two boss fights. And either then going on the run, or becoming Viscount, with no further comment.

[PanosSmirnakos]

From my POV Hawke is just a marionette to the story of DA. A bridge who connects events between DA:O (an introduction to the game world), DA II (an introduction to the Qunari way of invasions and the mages VS templars conflict) and DA III (which I think is going to be about a major event, capable to change dramatically the world of Thedas). IMO Anders and Varric were by far the real protagonists in DA II. Anders because no matter what the choices of Hawke will always be the terrorist or martyr who started the war and used him and Varric because without his help Hawke would be nothing more than a famous Fereldan thug / mercenary in Kirkwall.

So, no matter how many DLCs are going to be released they can't change the linear events of the core game. Legacy tried with a cheap attemtpt to explain via a codex entry that Corypheus was something like a negative force to Kirkwall and was responsible in a way for the existence of so many blood mages and other evil acts. Come on, this is bad storytelling. Hawke could be a much better and important character, but as I said he/she is treated like a marionette to move forward the story.

I'm not interested to see more of Hawke. I'm more interested to see a new protagonist in DA III who is voiced like Hawke but plays a more important role to the story and makes harsh decisions which matter like the warden.

Modifié par PanosSmirnakos, 08 septembre 2011 - 11:45 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

So I ask this question, is it better for a player character to start with the ability to change the word from the start, such as the Warden? Or, is better for the player to earn that over the course of the game, like with Hawke?

All Hawke did was earn the title of Champion of Kirkwall, which they got by making the qunari go away, one way or another. Beyond that, they just killed alot of people.

The Warden did not come with the ability to change the world, nor did they succeed in changing it completely. They could, however, take action and attempt to influence events either directly around them, or make choices that had unforseen and far reaching consequences, even if that wasn't the original intention. While at the end of the game, the Blight is always ended, the aftermath of the numerous choices to get there are different.

Hawke was in a position to  do more than they did, yet the game never allowed for hawke to do anything to influence or act on alot of things they should have. I don't care about not being able to stop Anders, or to stop the war period. That isn't necessary. But being able to say, have made a series of choices that could have had added alot more variety to the ending then siding with A or B, and getting your two boss fights. And either then going on the run, or becoming Viscount, with no further comment.

It's the bolded bit that I think could apply to DA2. The end result is the same - a mage/templar schism, and the earth-shattering implications to come. That's DA2's "Blight" path, as it were. But Hawke's journey to arrive at that end fight, and who to side with, is where I think all the power lies. It's the road you travel - who you meet, who you recruit, how you treat your companions, how you aid them and various denizens of Kirkwall.

DA2 exists in a microcosm - it's shrunk down with one main realm, and smaller maps, so there isn't the same running all over Fereldan and aiding the dwarves one minute, the mages the next, and still finding time to free a golem. So I think that influences some people's perception of Hawke's influence and whether or not (s)he is passive.

The thing is, DA2 is a cliffhanger, so we don't get the nice epilogue and we don't get to immediately see how some of the choices made have an impact. Maybe some of that will be addressed in DLCs, maybe it will unfold in the next game. That doesn't mean that the impact is non-existant...it's just still out on the horizon.

[mesmerizedish]

We should just agree to stop stroking THAT CERTAIN SOMEONE YOU KNOW WHO's ego with talk of Hawke being "reactive" and "passive" and needing to be "proactive."

[Xewaka]

I'd rather they keep their original plan of "the protagonist is Thedas, new character every game", to be honest.

[Addai]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
The thing is, DA2 is a cliffhanger, so we don't get the nice epilogue and we don't get to immediately see how some of the choices made have an impact. Maybe some of that will be addressed in DLCs, maybe it will unfold in the next game. That doesn't mean that the impact is non-existant...it's just still out on the horizon.

The game was marketed as the exact opposite, however.  We were supposed to see the results of our choices in the game.  Taking away the epilogue slides just left an incomplete game.

[Addai]

TheJediSaint wrote...

So I ask this question, is it better for a player character to start with the ability to change the word from the start, such as the Warden? Or, is better for the player to earn that over the course of the game, like with Hawke?

It's not so different.  Hawke muscles through everything from the start, too.  This is especially apparent if you're a mage.

And, what authority does the champion have?  Apparently, none.

[whykikyouwhy]

Addai67 wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
The thing is, DA2 is a cliffhanger, so we don't get the nice epilogue and we don't get to immediately see how some of the choices made have an impact. Maybe some of that will be addressed in DLCs, maybe it will unfold in the next game. That doesn't mean that the impact is non-existant...it's just still out on the horizon.

The game was marketed as the exact opposite, however.  We were supposed to see the results of our choices in the game.  Taking away the epilogue slides just left an incomplete game.

Well, I don't know of too many cliffhanger-y things that are advertised as cliffhangers.

I didn't pay much attention to the marketing campaigns, other than being awed by the graphics - the look and feel and sheer awesomeness promised in gameplay. Slogans and such...I personally shrugged them off. I don't recall seeing anything that specifically states that we would see the results of choices within the game, but then again, I didn't keep a keen eye out for that.

Now, the whole "rise to power" slogan? I would venture to say that yes, that did occur. I think I stated as much on one of the other "Hawke is passive" threads. There was a rise to power, and things were changed/influenced by Hawke, just in a smaller scale than what we had in DA:O, and possibly a smaller scale than what many people expected. But that's a guess on my part. I didn't feel any such lack.

[Rifneno]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

We should just agree to stop stroking THAT CERTAIN SOMEONE YOU KNOW WHO's ego with talk of Hawke being "reactive" and "passive" and needing to be "proactive."

Unfortunately I don't even know which one.  I can think of several people who have been raging about that since shortly after DA2 came out.  I just wish they'd stop blaming the character and start blaming the people truly at fault: the writers and/or the marketing department.  I say marketing because the only conceivable reason that the giant gaps in time occur is so the marketing team can give lines about how the game is so massive it takes a decade.  I remember Phantasy Star III pulling the same crap 20ish years ago.  Stupid kid I was, I bought it hook line and sinker, so I'm sure it worked on a lot of people with DA2 too.

[Ser Cedric]

When thinking about the muscular size of someone who may have existed in times like those I'm sure Hawke was involved in farming and whatnot, preblight.

In defense of Hawke being a reactionary fellow, well, he and his family lost everything. He's a scrub in a new world but still has sense in his head to refrain from rampaging around Kirkwall, slaying those who anger him at whim and managing to keep focus on the task at hand. While it may have been a grand time slaying the shop proprietor in pen and paper D&D and carving out your own story (literally,) Dragon Age has it's own tale to tell.

As far as Hawke being proactive though, have you tried sleeping with every character possible in DA2 on one play through? The gossip is delightful!

[TheJediSaint]

Ser Cedric wrote...

As far as Hawke being proactive though, have you tried sleeping with every character possible in DA2 on one play through? The gossip is delightful!

Well, that's one way I suppose.

[BobZilla84]

There is an awful lot of Hawke Haters and everybody is entitled to their opinions but I get tired of people ripping Hawke.
I mean to be completely honest the problem isn't that Hawke is passive or any of the other countless slights that people hurl at Hawke the problem was Bad Writing and Choices by Bioware.

I mean they essentially made a very promising Character and Assassinated it with poor Judgement and Bad Writing.

I personally prefer Hawke more than my Warden but thats just me I just wish Bioware would have wrote the Story Events better making Hawke more involved,

[The Baconer]

LobselVith topic.

[Foolsfolly]

Maybe this is a difference between M!Hawke and F!Hawke. I felt that my F!Hawke exercised her intellect quite well and wasn't very passive at all. Hmm...

Nah. Played both genders. Hawke is Hawke regardless of their dangly parts. And Hawke is a side character in their own game. They don't pro-actively seek out anything. They tend to wait around until some other character acts and then react to that. In the process inadvertently becoming Champion, bringing up the pure lyrium, and kicking off a Mage Rebellion.

I am not interested in seeing Hawke again, period. No DLC can substantially alter the base game.

Agreed. I want a Dragon Age 3 announcement more than any DLC announcement.

So I ask this question, is it better for a player character to start with the ability to change the word from the start, such as the Warden? Or, is better for the player to earn that over the course of the game, like with Hawke?

Hawke didn't earn anything nor did Hawke change the world.

Hawke did not seek to be a noble, yet were given the rank off screen. Hawke did not seek to become Champion, yet becomes Champion upon either killing the Arishok or selling a friend into slavery. Hawke did not start, prevent, or win any Mage Rebellion since Hawke's presence in that battle is a wash.

Had Hawke died surrounded by darkspawn outside of Lothering then Meredith wouldn't have gotten the lyrium idol and wouldn't be a super charged crazy. The battle would still have been on the Templar's side but anyone could have won that fight since Hawke's just one person more.

I still believe the Qunari would have been dealt with by Meredith's Templars. The Qunari numbers will small and dwindling daily. Kirkwall is Templar Central and I believe they would have stormed the Keep and killed the Qunari... they probably would have lost most of the noble families but who cares about them they're worthless.

And the expedition could have gone forward without Hawke, there's that shady dwarf guy that Bartrand dislikes. He has the money and without Hawke tossing their coin into the pile they'd eventually have to accept that offer. Which means perhaps the only source of Hawke's importance is stopping Meredith later on.. but that's weak and besides the point. The finale was about Mage Rights (well until Anders went terrorist and changed the subject from "Should Mages Have Equal Rights When They Could Be a Huge Public Threat" to "Do You Kill A Minority for A Crime They Didn't Commit?") The Meredith going crazy from a plot device doesn't play into that and yet it's always our final fight. Was it meant to say that normal people can be as dangerous as a Mage? I think we know that from all the side quests in the game with normal people, besides once she's possessed by an ancient evil rock she's no longer a regular human. The finale should have stuck with the original question of Mage Rights.

Hawke didn't earn their happy ending, nor did they earn anything. Hawke can do things like kill the Magistrate's Son and there's no repercussions for it. For all the big moments in the game there's another character who's more responsible Bartrand for the Idol to the surface, Petrice for the Qunari fight (since the Qunari independent of Hawke sent a peace delegation to the Viscount which Petrice's people had killed had she not acted the Qunari threat would have been resolved there), and Anders for the beginning of the Mage Rebellion.

Meanwhile, I see the Warden as having earned their accomplishments. They went around, solved big problems, raised and funded and army, led that army into a gaping maw of hell, and came out either dead or having helped create an Old God. Nothing was given to the Warden and the Warden actively went after goals and changed things in their wake.

But I will say this: the Qunari section of the game is extremely well done. It gave me a nice growing dread that everything was locked in for self-destruction and there was nothing you could do to stop it. That was extremely well done. But Hawke's too passive throughout the game. And generally suffers from "Two Minutes Too Late" Syndrome.

The thing is, DA2 is a cliffhanger, so we don't get the nice epilogue and we don't get to immediately see how some of the choices made have an impact.

There's no cliffhanger it's just a mediocre ending.

Cassandra asks Varric about the Champion and seems to think the Champion was some mastermind who orchestrated everything in the city for some 7 years in an effort to destroy the Chantry. She asks about the truth of those years.

Varric tells her.

It's not a cliffhanger since from the second minute into the opening cutscene we're told the Chantry is in ruins and there's a world wide war. It would have been a cliffhanger if they didn't say that and we went through the game and then at the end the world was on the brink of war. That's a development that's introduced and not wrapped up.

BUT the way they introduced the war and the world at the beginning means the story isn't a linear one but instead a "How did we get here?" story.

Other than the Mage War we know exactly what Hawke's affect was for everything except the Dreamer kid you can lobotomize, give to a demon, or tell him to embrace his power. Everything else has answers in the game or those choices now no longer matter since there's a massive war going on.

What's left to answer?

There is an awful lot of Hawke Haters and everybody is entitled to their opinions but I get tired of people ripping Hawke.
I mean to be completely honest the problem isn't that Hawke is passive or any of the other countless slights that people hurl at Hawke the problem was Bad Writing and Choices by Bioware.

I mean they essentially made a very promising Character and Assassinated it with poor Judgement and Bad Writing.

I personally prefer Hawke more than my Warden but thats just me I just wish Bioware would have wrote the Story Events better making Hawke more involved,

I think Hawke is an extremely well done character. Hawke's just not the hero of this story. Hawke's a middleman usually between two Active Players but Hawke's choices between those Active Players is always pointless. Hawke never tips a scale in any direction.

Even in the finale if Hawke sides with the Templars you curb stop the weakest Mages ever seen. And then you curb stomp Meredith and you hear that the Mages went forth and told others and Hawke became a rallying cry for the mages. If you side with the Mages you still leave hundreds of Templars who are fully capable of killing the Mages Hawke leaves behind when they run away.

Hawke doesn't become the leader of the Templar, Kirkwall, or the Mages through their actions and use that power as an extension of their will. They run away either immediately or soon after and events unfold the exact same way regardless of Hawke's choice.

Now Hawke's dialogue, personality system, and the like are really well done. BioWare wrote Hawke well, and they wrote the companions extremely well. But Hawke's not an Active player in a story where Hawke should be one of the Active Players.

I wouldn't want Hawke as the only active in the story. It would be great if there were as many active players possible. BioWare's largest fault in Dragon Age 2 was the lack of reactivity in the game. Choices mean nothing if the outcome is the exact same regardless. The more reactive the plot, environment, and characters the more weight Hawke has in their story. And then you'd see Hawke as a Giant amongst giants in a political thriller.

Instead we got Hawke does X or Y which always equals Z.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 09 septembre 2011 - 11:04 .

[Augustei]

Havn't you discussed this several times before in other threads?

Anyway I personally dont really mind that Hawke is reactive to events but the idolness he displays in certain events is quite shameful and irritating - I think the critical problem to be addressed is the lack of individual consequence in the choices Hawke does make. But as for being Dragged along by the plot and not defining it as a proactive person (Not defining it not meaning choice consequence mind you) But being dragged along by a spiraling out of control situation that cannot really be contained is sits alright with me. I admire the experimentation on Biowares part of a different type of course a plot can take though. It seemingly didn't work out as seen by the fan bases reaction but still its good to attempt such things.

There are many good games where the player is reactive instead of proactive. - RPGs that involve choices with value. So cant really fault Bioware for their attempts.

Anyway back to my original response. I dont mind the reactive over proactive thing, I dont really care either way but the critical thing im concerned about is the lack of individual consequence in choices and hopefully this is what the focus is in the future

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 09 septembre 2011 - 11:10 .

[Foolsfolly]

What's left to discuss that wasn't discussed in the first month?

[Augustei]

Foolsfolly wrote...

What's left to discuss that wasn't discussed in the first month?

Mass Effect 3 =P

But with Dragon Age... Idk something that isn't complaining or about Mages vs Templars.. Theres already a thousand of those discussions lol. Maybe something to do with Qunari, specific characters or Orlais/Ferelden relations.