122 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Well, I guess the plot could have been better if Hawke started the mage-templar war. At least I can take partial credit by helping Anders.

[jlb524]

It seems to me most BW PCs are passive/reactive...including the Warden.

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, I guess the plot could have been better if Hawke started the mage-templar war. At least I can take partial credit by helping Anders.

I guess you could roleplay a Hawke that, say, wanted to start a mage-templar war and knew where Anders/Justice were inevitibly heading with it but let Anders do all the dirty work and take full responsibility.

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Havn't you discussed this several times before in other threads?

I've discussed a number of issues recently, from my views on Sister Nightingale's comments about mages in "Faith" to the dichotomy between mages and templars, and even the problem with paraphrasing. I don't see this thread being any different than when you created a mage thread when there was more than one active mage thread (there were three others, if I recall correctly) at the time, and you were discussing the issue in those threads as well. We discuss issues that we care about, and Hawke's status as a passive protagonist is an issue that I think needs to be addressed for future stories.

XxDeonxX wrote...

Anyway I personally dont really mind that Hawke is reactive to events but the idolness he displays in certain events is quite shameful and irritating - I think the critical problem to be addressed is the lack of individual consequence in the choices Hawke does make. But as for being Dragged along by the plot and not defining it as a proactive person (Not defining it not meaning choice consequence mind you) But being dragged along by a spiraling out of control situation that cannot really be contained is sits alright with me. I admire the experimentation on Biowares part of a different type of course a plot can take though. It seemingly didn't work out as seen by the fan bases reaction but still its good to attempt such things.

The problem is the story places Hawke in situations where we should be able to make a choice, and are either ignored (if we say no to Petrice, for instance, in "Shepherding Wolves") or we are not given the choice that our protagonist would like to make (like letting Idunna go free in "Enemies Among Us," investigating the incriminating hand-written note that we find in Quentin's lair during "All That Remains," or actively opposing Meredith's dictatorship for three years after Act II). Instead, Hawke doesn't seem to do much of anything, to the point that he simply stands there while Grace kills Ser Thrask in "Best Served Cold."

XxDeonxX wrote...

There are many good games where the player is reactive instead of proactive. - RPGs that involve choices with value. So cant really fault Bioware for their attempts.

Anyway back to my original response. I dont mind the reactive over proactive thing, I dont really care either way but the critical thing im concerned about is the lack of individual consequence in choices and hopefully this is what the focus is in the future

I suppose I'm looking for the protagonist to be active instead of passive, like the protagonists in Morrowind and New Vegas.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jlb524 wrote...

It seems to me most BW PCs are passive/reactive...including the Warden.

They are, but some are less bad than others.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, I guess the plot could have been better if Hawke started the mage-templar war. At least I can take partial credit by helping Anders.

Sigh, almost everywhere I come across your posts I can't help but think "What's wrong with her?" 

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

It seems to me most BW PCs are passive/reactive...including the Warden.

They are, but some are less bad than others.

True; the agency the Warden had was almost incomparible to what Hawke ultimately got. At least the Warden was able pull off a couple of decent gambits, whereas Hawke just went with the flow.

[Sunnie]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, I guess the plot could have been better if Hawke started the mage-templar war. At least I can take partial credit by helping Anders.

Murdering innocent people is a great way to start a war, I'll give them that!

[Xilizhra]

Sunnie22 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, I guess the plot could have been better if Hawke started the mage-templar war. At least I can take partial credit by helping Anders.

Murdering innocent people is a great way to start a war, I'll give them that!

It is. A pity Meredith didn't realize it.

[Shadow Fox]

Xilizhra wrote...

Sunnie22 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, I guess the plot could have been better if Hawke started the mage-templar war. At least I can take partial credit by helping Anders.

Murdering innocent people is a great way to start a war, I'll give them that!

It is. A pity Meredith didn't realize it.

...Meredith didn't murder the Circle till after Anders blew up the Chantry.

They're both eqaully at fault they both murdered innocents...Which is why all  my Hawkes hope they're spending plenty of "quality time" with the big red man downstairs after she snuffed em.

[Ryzaki]

Addai67 wrote...
Yes, obviously the plot was driving the outcome for both protagonists, but it so happens that in Origins the plot called for the Warden ending the Blight.  In DA2, the plot calls for Anders to start the mage templar war and Hawke to be a feckless bystander.  Just because the plot dictates Hawke to be lame doesn't make the character any less lame.  And as far as some of us are concerned, the "personal story" the marketing promised didn't amount to much, either.  So there you have it.

This. All of this. Especially the bolded. 

[MrNose]

Hawke is a talented individual whose adventures end up with them getting caught up in events beyond their control and having to react because of that. There is absolutely no problem with this story.

Not every story needs to have a simple antagonist holding an "evil stick" that you know you'll have to end up killing from the beginning of the story.

[Anyroad2]

Addai67 wrote...
Yes, obviously the plot was driving the outcome for both protagonists, but it so happens that in Origins the plot called for the Warden ending the Blight. In DA2, the plot calls for Anders to start the mage templar war and Hawke to be a feckless bystander. Just because the plot dictates Hawke to be lame doesn't make the character any less lame. And as far as some of us are concerned, the "personal story" the marketing promised didn't amount to much, either. So there you have it.

In Dragon Age 2 the Plot calls for Hawke ending the Qunari attack (heroically, or not so much), being responsible for the discovery of an Ancient Thaig, the Red Lyrium Relic, and either helping the mages or the templars during the conclusion of Act 3 (just to name the major points)... all things that will probably end up having some sort of large impact on the history of Thedas and its people.

I'm fairly sure that being able to take credit for all those things abolishes any claim of Hawke being feckless. Hawke is effective, Hawke does have a purpose, Hawke does take responsibility for his/her self and/or associates.

You can dislike Hawke all you want. I don't really care. Thats always a possibility with a character that isnt a blank enough slate for people to impose their own character onto. The libeling and slander that gets shot to Hakwe and his/her writer(s) is what I have a problem with.

I personally loved Hawke as a character. I enjoyed the fact that Hawke didnt try to stick his/her nose into everything intentionally. I especially enjoyed the fact that Hawke never had a goal of saving the world from evil.

Modifié par Anyroad2, 15 septembre 2011 - 04:19 .

[Addai]

MrNose wrote...

Hawke is a talented individual whose adventures end up with them getting caught up in events beyond their control and having to react because of that. There is absolutely no problem with this story.

Not every story needs to have a simple antagonist holding an "evil stick" that you know you'll have to end up killing from the beginning of the story.

Point, still missing it.  I enjoyed Origins because it did have an intelligent antagonist who had reasons to do what he was doing beyond incomprehensible stupidity.  And you could actually spare him and see some deeper characterization, whereas with Meredith and Orsino you get very little.

Hawke doesn't react- that's the point.  Or rather, I should say, she occasionally shows some initiative, but there are glaring gaps where her behavior or lack thereof simply don't make sense.

[phaonica]

Anyroad2 wrote...

In Dragon Age 2 the Plot calls for Hawke ending the Qunari attack (heroically, or not so much), being responsible for the discovery of an Ancient Thaig, the Red Lyrium Relic, and either helping the mages or the templars during the conclusion of Act 3 (just to name the major points)... all things that will probably end up having some sort of large impact on the history of Thedas and its people. 

But finding the Thaig and the Lyrium were serendipity. It's not proactive to stumble across something, even if it is important.

Hawke barely does anything unless someone tells him/her to do it, or when a situation presses the issue (such as the Qunari and Mage/Templar situation).

Modifié par phaonica, 15 septembre 2011 - 05:57 .

[LobselVith8]

MrNose wrote...

Hawke is a talented individual whose adventures end up with them getting caught up in events beyond their control and having to react because of that. There is absolutely no problem with this story.

Not every story needs to have a simple antagonist holding an "evil stick" that you know you'll have to end up killing from the beginning of the story.

The problem is the situations where Hawke is in control, but does nothing. I've provided several examples already, and none of them are outside Hawke's control. When this happens, I don't end up feeling like Hawke is a talented individual. The story dictates that Hawke does nothing in these scenerios, despite the fact that he has the power to do something about it, and I think the protagonist (and the story) suffers because of it.

[Wulfram]

Anyroad2 wrote...

In Dragon Age 2 the Plot calls for Hawke ending the Qunari attack (heroically, or not so much), being responsible for the discovery of an Ancient Thaig, the Red Lyrium Relic, and either helping the mages or the templars during the conclusion of Act 3 (just to name the major points)... all things that will probably end up having some sort of large impact on the history of Thedas and its people.

I'm fairly sure that being able to take credit for all those things abolishes any claim of Hawke being feckless. Hawke is effective, Hawke does have a purpose, Hawke does take responsibility for his/her self and/or associates.

So Hawke tags along on Bartrand's expedition, stops an obviously doomed invasion and either helps the Templars beat up on a bunch of doomed mage or utterly fails to defend said mages

[AlexXIV]

We have discussed this months before. The problem is that it is a game and not a book or movie. If it wasn't a game for all I care the main character can fail, suffer and die. And to be honest after this plot it would have been best for Hawke to die at the end. But for that Bio didn't have the courage, they rather just kill the good old mom in a creepy frankenstein way. Let's face it, this game has many ups and downs. The general plot is not an up.

Difference between a game story and other stories is that you play games to win. Ok, for fun too, but who is going to dispute that winning is more fun than losing? Anyway, if you fight through all the mess you want to emerge as a hero and not some guy who tried but failed. I mean if people want to feel helpless they only need to read the news or watch them on TV. Games exist for different reasons. So while a story can work with a hero that fails, I think in a game it doesn't.

[AlexXIV]

Wulfram wrote...

Yep. The problem I have with the expedition is that Hawke starts all the trouble in Kirkwall by doing it. But he doesn't do it on purpose, it is a mistake. Probably dying down there would have been better for everyone. And the Qunari attack is sort of fail as well. For starters Hawke was supposed to prevent it, which failed. Then Hawke 'saved' Kirkwall only seconds before Meredith would have done it. And without Meredith, who knows. On the other hand you can't tell me that Meredith and the templars couldn't have stopped the Qunari without Hawke. After all they were only 200 Qunari, their attack was a suicide mission anyway. Last but not least, mage-templar conflict. Whatever Hawke does, result is the same. Which also makes questionable that Hawke actually did have any impact.

I mean it's a nice story and Hawke surely is a sort of hero. As are others with him. But in the end the big players who 'change the world forever' are others.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 15 septembre 2011 - 10:56 .

[DrFumb1ezX]

dramatic irony 
noun
the irony occurring when the implications of a situation, speech, etc, are understood by the 
audience but not by the characters in the story.

Basically, just because you know something doesn't automatically mean that Hawke knows it.
That's my take on the "Hawke is just so passive/reactive" threads.
Take it as you will.

Modifié par soccerchick, 15 septembre 2011 - 11:25 .

[Morroian]

AlexXIV wrote...

I mean it's a nice story and Hawke surely is a sort of hero. As are others with him. But in the end the big players who 'change the world forever' are others.

Hawke is the catalyst though, which is probably hidden by the fact that the player can't affect the narrative in a meaningful way. Without Hawke: no idol, Anders killed, who knows how the Qunari situation would have played out without Hawke's actions during Act 2, heck it may have ended up better without Seamus being killed and the Qunari rioting.  

[Ivers0803]

Im having trouble thinking of a video game where the character is proactive, can make decisions, and follow a narrative. To be honest they are kinda conflicting ideas. In a game, someone has to give you a mission or a quest that you have to complete. I honestly don't see a way around that. While Hawke does not influence the events in DA2, he influences the public opinion of Thedas towards the mages by either becoming a symbol or a rallying cry

[Leon481]

Hawke wasn't entirely passive. Consider that his choices directly affected the fates of his companions. His choices directly affect the fate of the living sibling, more than once in Bethany's case. He chooses whether Aveline gets married or not. He chooses whether Isabella gets taken away, saved, or just runs off, not to mention if she gets a ship or not. He chooses to save Fenris or hand him over to be a slave. His decisions either make Anders a determined terrorist or a certified lunatic. His choices affect whether Merrill gives up blood magic and the mirror or continues her obsession. He chooses Varric's fate by deciding whether he kills Bartrand or not as well as whether he keeps the idol fragment. Let's not forget he directly chose the fates of Orana, Feynriel, and so many others.

Every sidequest Hawke took had him making proactive decisions that directly affected the fates of people in Kirkwall. They weren't necessarily world altering decisions, but they were still count.

Modifié par Leon481, 15 septembre 2011 - 11:50 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Leon481 wrote...

Hawke wasn't entirely passive. Consider that his choices directly affected the fates of his companions. His choices directly affect the fate of the living sibling, more than once in Bethany's case. He chooses whether Aveline gets married or not. He chooses whether Isabella gets taken away, saved, or just runs off, not to mention if she gets a ship or not. He chooses to save Fenris or hand him over to be a slave. His decisions either make Anders a determined terrorist or a certified lunatic. His choices affect whether Merrill gives up blood magic and the mirror or continues her obsession. He chooses Varric's fate by deciding whether he kills Bartrand or not as well as whether he keeps the idol fragment. Let's not forget he directly chose the fates of Orana, Feynriel, and so many others.

Every sidequest Hawke took had him making proactive decisions that directly affected the fates of people in Kirkwall. They weren't necessarily world altering decisions, but they were still count.

Very well put.

And at this juncture, we don't yet know if any of those decisions will, in fact, be world-altering or not. Allowing a particular character to live, or opting to lead a character to his/her death, could have a tremendous impact on future events. While hazy, those possibilities do exist. Many folks would probably prefer to see the ramifications of Hawke's decisions in-game, but I think this is where we see a RL parallel - we don't always get to see that instant effect. Sometimes itcould be weeks, months or years before we discover how our choices have played out.

[Collider]

I very much liked that Hawke wasn't the arbiter of everything unlike other Bioware protagonists.

[AlexXIV]

Morroian wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I mean it's a nice story and Hawke surely is a sort of hero. As are others with him. But in the end the big players who 'change the world forever' are others.

Hawke is the catalyst though, which is probably hidden by the fact that the player can't affect the narrative in a meaningful way. Without Hawke: no idol, Anders killed, who knows how the Qunari situation would have played out without Hawke's actions during Act 2, heck it may have ended up better without Seamus being killed and the Qunari rioting.  

Well it's as if the Hero of Ferelden was just having a long walk on the beach when he stumbled, his sword flew out of it's sheath and pierced the Archdemon's brain who just happened to peek it's head out of the water to look what everyone's up to. He'd still have slain the Archdemon, but people who see it would hardly feel that it was really heroic. I mean, being catalyst is either random or fate. In any case nothing you do on purpose. Just think of Flemeth and Varric. They are catalysts too. Flemeth saves the Hawkes to begin with and Varric gets Hawke into the expedition

[jlb524]

Leon481 wrote...

Every sidequest Hawke took had him making proactive decisions that directly affected the fates of people in Kirkwall. They weren't necessarily world altering decisions, but they were still count.

That's not as cool and flashy as like, savin' the world from an ancient evil!