106 réponses à ce sujet

[Kail Pendragon]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

]Just to remind you, I agreed that if there would exist closed SP game then it would not be cheating.

However I didnt agreed with your definition of such a game.

Since the OP mentioned his gaming experiences its not closed SP anymore by my view, thus he is cheating.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Ludicrous to say the least. You have no clue whatsoever what closed SP means, dude. I'm not surprised since you generally have no clue whatsoever. Altering the lore skill, differently from what the OP thinks, in his/her SP games simply is not cheating.

I wont argue about it anymore

Dude, you cannot argue at all in the first place; there's nothing to argue in truisms.

everything I want to say I already said, its just interesting how the "opposite camp" feel necessary to point this and debate about this everytime anyone tells opposite opinion.

It's not a matter of opinion but of facts. There can be no cheating in SP.

Especially Kail "I got last word" Pendragon.

I've got no last word at all, I'm just stating a truism. The fact anyone feels like there's anything else to say about it or even to argue about says a lot about their intelligence of the matter.

[Kail Pendragon]

ffbj wrote...

Wow. I don't really get why so many are irate about this. Personally I think it is more a mater of degree and an opinion. Telling me how others should think about such a subject, is imo, really rather pointless. I think everyone is entitled to have their own opinion on this subject and nothing is proven as it's not a scientific proof.

There is no opinion involved, it's just facts. There is no cheating nor there can be any cheating in SP. Facts, not opinion.

[ffbj]

That's your opinion.

[Shadooow]

Kail Pendragon wrote...
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Ludicrous to say the least. You have no clue whatsoever what closed SP means, dude. I'm not surprised since you generally have no clue whatsoever. Altering the lore skill, differently from what the OP thinks, in his/her SP games simply is not cheating.

Yes and I have especially no clue why moderators havent acted yet. Every post of yours contain hate speech against my or other persons who doesnt agree with you. Absolutely poor.

[WebShaman]

You *cannot* break your own rules - you do see this, right? The reason for this is because you yourself re-make the rules as you go. It is not like your rules are set in stone, for all eternity, unchangeable. If you decide to change them (you use the term break here, strangely enough), well, then, the change(s) become the new rule(s)!

When one acts as the ultimate authority (makes up rules for themselves), they cannot break their own authority. Unless, of course, one has multiple personalities. Instead, acting as the ultimate authority, they instead change the previous rules to be those of the present. THERE IS NO HIGHER AUTHORITY THAT COMES INTO CONSIDERATION HERE!

As to "why refer to rules at all" - one doesn't have to. That is the whole point here. Are you somehow "forcing" yourself to adamantly obey your own rules? What do you do when you find out that your rules lead to you being totally miserable? Or at a completely dead end? Do you change them?

Note that this is ONLY in regards to a Closed SP Environment. Obviously, in other types of environments, where others are involved, one needs rules for the group in question to abide by.

Case in point : you are alone on another planet, without hope of ever leaving or seeing or contacting another human being until death.

What rules are you bound by? Who is going to enforce them?

@ShaDoOoW - asking a question on how to do something on a forum does NOT constitute a violation of a Closed SP Environment. The OP is not trying to compare anything in his/her SP game with others, merely is asking for help in accomplishing something.

In other words, no comparisons are being made to anyone else's. Therefore, there is no need for anyone else to agree (or not) with the OP's playing rules.

[WebShaman]

Case in point (again) - what is "blue"? Of course, we have definitions for this color, especially in the scientific sense.

Now, you may say that blue is something else. You may even believe this. It doesn't change things, however, as defined.

If I am the only one who is making the definition, and no-one else is involved, can be involved, will ever be involved, then I can define blue to be whatever I want it to be - definition of a Closed SP Environment. And I can change this whenever I wish to.

However, we all live in an open environment - and blue is pre-defined.

[Kail Pendragon]

ffbj wrote...

That's your opinion.

No, it is not. It is a fact.

[Kail Pendragon]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Ludicrous to say the least. You have no clue whatsoever what closed SP means, dude. I'm not surprised since you generally have no clue whatsoever. Altering the lore skill, differently from what the OP thinks, in his/her SP games simply is not cheating.

Yes and I have especially no clue why moderators havent acted yet. Every post of yours contain hate speech against my or other persons who doesnt agree with you. Absolutely poor.

Hate? I do not hate you. At most I despise the sheer level of unintelligence of what is being written that you, oh so often, display. And I wonder whether you know what I am meaning with intelligence/unintelligence here, but I'm digressing.

I do not give a darn if you or anyone else agrees with me or not, truisms do not need agreement. Those that recognize them display intelligence of the matter, those that do not display incapacity to understand. It's that simple.

And you can't blame me for your lack of capacity to distinguish between "fix" and "modification": that alone speaks volumes about the meaninglessness of all your statements. So, where were you standing? Oh yeah, I could have guessed

Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 10 septembre 2011 - 11:40 .

[Androrc]

Kail Pendragon wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Ludicrous to say the least. You have no clue whatsoever what closed SP means, dude. I'm not surprised since you generally have no clue whatsoever. Altering the lore skill, differently from what the OP thinks, in his/her SP games simply is not cheating.

Yes and I have especially no clue why moderators havent acted yet. Every post of yours contain hate speech against my or other persons who doesnt agree with you. Absolutely poor.

Hate? I do not hate you. At most I despise the sheer level of unintelligence of what is being written that you, oh so often, display. And I wonder whether you know what I am meaning with intelligence/unintelligence here, but I'm digressing.

I do not give a darn if you or anyone else agrees with me or not, truisms do not need agreement. Those that recognize them display intelligence of the matter, those that do not display incapacity to understand. It's that simple.

And you can't blame me for your lack of capacity to distinguish between "fix" and "modification": that alone speaks volumes about the meaninglessness of all your statements. So, where were you standing? Oh yeah, I could have guessed

I imagine his point is that you are being overly aggressive, a kind of behavior which tends to be accompanied by poor arguments and which is generally despised, as it creates unnecessary friction with other forum members (you could have gotten your point across in another way). So once you act like that it is good that he called you out on it, and in a more mature way.

[Kail Pendragon]

In a mature way? Shadow? It's getting really ridiculous. Someone that doesn't (want to) know the difference between a fix and a modification, that thinks that since the OP talked about his SP than the closeness of the SP environment is violated and that generally is unable to make an argument, any argument, worth to be called such, who fails to grasp basic logical concepts and whose only way out is to build the same old strawman where I am the bad guy is so far away from maturity as light is from darkness.

And I'm not being aggressive at all. I'm simply stating the truth. Now, the fact the heralds of falsity and delusion feel attacked by the statement of truth is not my concern. May they rot in the nine hells. And all those who can't take the heat, as they say, may very well stay outta the kitchen.

Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 11 septembre 2011 - 01:59 .

[epic Kobold]

Humorous to see two individuals building a house of cards out of a poor understanding of logic. And equating volume with truth.

[Hardcore UFO]

I feel old when I read certain tones and vocabularies being used and am almost wistful in thinking: "Aw, look. He just got through the first 100 pages of something DesCartes wrote and now he's squeezing 'cogito' in every sentence... Life really is a cycle. Sniff."

[WebShaman]

Humorous to see two individuals building a house of cards out of a poor understanding of logic. And equating volume with truth.

Then kindly demonstrate yours and show us where we are wrong. After all, we have a "poor understanding" of logic...so educate us with your superior version.

[Gregor Wyrmbane]

 
The cheating/not cheating issue is very simple, and not complicated like some folks would like to have everyone believe.

There's a 10 page disucussion of it that can be viewed here if you'd like a little amusement:  

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/199/index/7292934/1


By definition, to cheat you must break "the rules". There are no rules that come in the players handbook when you buy NWN in any of its forms. In fact, it specifically states in the players handbook that "the rules" are hard coded into the game engine and cannot be broken by the player.  Don't believe me? Look it up for yourself in your players handbook. If you can't find it, I referenced the page number in the above linked thread.

Multi player is different. In MP there are "house rules", laid down by the owner of the "house", and enforced by the owner/DM's. In MP it is possible to break "the rules".

[Shadooow]

if it would be so simple then this would not end with 10 pages of flaming, one member left this community and no closure

[Gregor Wyrmbane]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

if it would be so simple then this would not end with 10 pages of flaming, one member left this community and no closure

The people who cannot/will not find closure are the people who are misinformed about the rules of NWN, and/or the people who wish to redefine the word cheat to suit their own controlling nature.

There are certain facts about this issue that cannot be disputed by any logical argument.

1. The universally accepted definition of the word "cheat" is to "break the rules".

2. The NWN players handbook specifically states that all the rules governing NWN are hard coded into the game engine and cannot be broken by the player. 

3. If you can't break the rules, you can't cheat.

It doesn't get much simpler than that.

[Lightfoot8]

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

The people who cannot/will not find closure are the people who are misinformed about the rules of NWN, and/or the people who wish to redefine the word cheat to suit their own controlling nature.

I dissagree, I have seen no one in this thread say that the OP is not more then welcome to make the modification that they asked about. In Fact most of the poeple who have called it cheating have been the most helpfull in answering his question on how to go about it. It is the 'it is not cheating' people who have done nothing by cry about how other people chose to see thing that have raised all of the fuss here. The calim that because we call it cheating, we are some how pointing a moral finger and trying to controll otheres. If that is so, Why is it that only the 'we call it cheating' Group, is helping the OP cheat and not just mucking up his thread with this clutter, that I am once again adding to against my better judgment.

There are certain facts about this issue that cannot be disputed by any logical argument.

1. The universally accepted definition of the word "cheat" is to "break the rules".

I agree with your deffintiion of cheat.  WebShaman however makes a better case with his argument with his assumption that you have to have someone to cheat in order to cheat.   I however in agreement with your deffinition would say that if you break the rules you are cheating.  

2. The NWN players handbook specifically states that all the rules governing NWN are hard coded into the game engine and cannot be broken by the player. 

3. If you can't break the rules, you can't cheat.

After looking in the Player HandBook, for this Quote you are making  reference to,  The closest thing I can find is:

Quote Players HandBook...

The Dungeons & Dragons rules set has been carefully designed to
facilitate your travels, and Neverwinter Nights takes full advantage
of that flexibility. The convenience of a computer roleplaying
game means that the majority of rules and functions are handled
behind the scenes, leaving you free to enjoy your adventures without
worrying about rules.

3. If you can't break the rules, you can't cheat.

It doesn't get much simpler than that.

Well I hope I missed the Quote form the Players Handbook you are talking about. For the one I quoted basicly says: Dont worrie about it if you do not know how to play D&D or roll a saving throw against a DC, The game takes care of it for you. It say nothing about changing the rulles as being cheating or not.

[Kail Pendragon]

epic Kobold wrote...

Humorous to see two individuals building a house of cards out of a poor understanding of logic. And equating volume with truth.

In fact there's no need of "volume" at all. Cheating in SP is not possible.  All the volume has been made by those failing to understand a simple logical argument, based on the ordinary english meaning of "cheating".

It's indeed humorous to see Shadow and friends put up this idiotic show all the times... humorous indeed :lol:

Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 13 septembre 2011 - 12:25 .

[Kail Pendragon]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

if it would be so simple then this would not end with 10 pages of flaming, one member left this community and no closure

Oh look Lowlander left and the idiocy has not stopped... it means there's more than one member disturbing the community with their arrogant unintelligence (but that I already knew).

[Kail Pendragon]

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

if it would be so simple then this would not end with 10 pages of flaming, one member left this community and no closure

The people who cannot/will not find closure are the people who are misinformed about the rules of NWN, and/or the people who wish to redefine the word cheat to suit their own controlling nature.

There are certain facts about this issue that cannot be disputed by any logical argument.

1. The universally accepted definition of the word "cheat" is to "break the rules".

As a further important clarification, cheating also implies deceipt. And that implies two parties. Oh look, in SP there's one single parrty involved.

[Kail Pendragon]

Lightfoot8 wrote...

I agree with your deffintiion of cheat.  WebShaman however makes a better case with his argument with his assumption that you have to have someone to cheat in order to cheat.   I however in agreement with your deffinition would say that if you break the rules you are cheating.  

If you just were willing to educate yourself, which you are self admittedly not, you would discover that cheating implies deceipt.

Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 13 septembre 2011 - 12:24 .

[Gregor Wyrmbane]

Lightfoot8 wrote...

Well I hope I missed the Quote form the Players Handbook you are talking about. For the one I quoted basicly says: Dont worrie about it if you do not know how to play D&D or roll a saving throw against a DC, The game takes care of it for you. It say nothing about changing the rulles as being cheating or not.

Ah, yes.... "the rules". I keep hearing all this reference to "the rules" during these discussions about NWN, but after spending hours reading the manual that comes with the game, I couldn't find any rules listed in it. Since you agree that you have to break the rules to cheat, then there must be some rules to break. None of the people posting in any of the "cheating" threads created this game, and therefore they don't have the right to make up the rules for everyone else governing SP. All they've done so far is espouse their own opinion about how they think the game "should" be played. If there were any rules to be broken, they'd be in the game manual. 

I challenge anyone to post a copy of "the rules" that came with their NWN game manual/players handbook. 


I'm sure everyone here would love to see exactly what rules have been broken.

[HipMaestro]

Contrary to public opinion, the ethics of cheating lies within the personal universe of the individual.  No community consensus, act of Congrees or legal document can alter one's personal mores.  Such ritualistic conventions can be food for thought and subject for debate but won't change anyone's personal convictions. The attitude will persist ...although the outward expression of one's "guts"  may need to be modified to coexist within a social environment. The hashing and re-hashing just exposes some polarization of opinions... nothing more...  doesn'talter anything or establish an absolute, being based on a finite sampling of opinion.

Obviously, the OP was subject to some amount of personal conviction when posing the original inquiry or wouldn't have qualified the request.  Apparently there must be some innate definition of cheating that trancends any printed resource or general public consensus.

Meanwhile, my games of solitaire will go much faster now that my claim of color-blindedness has been fully vindicated.

As you were, squad.  Carry on, my friends...

[Gregor Wyrmbane]

HipMaestro wrote...

Contrary to public opinion, the ethics of cheating lies within the personal universe of the individual.  No community consensus, act of Congrees or legal document can alter one's personal mores.  Such ritualistic conventions can be food for thought and subject for debate but won't change anyone's personal convictions. The attitude will persist ...although the outward expression of one's "guts"  may need to be modified to coexist within a social environment. The hashing and re-hashing just exposes some polarization of opinions... nothing more...  doesn'talter anything or establish an absolute, being based on a finite sampling of opinion.

Obviously, the OP was subject to some amount of personal conviction when posing the original inquiry or wouldn't have qualified the request.  Apparently there must be some innate definition of cheating that trancends any printed resource or general public consensus.

Meanwhile, my games of solitaire will go much faster now that my claim of color-blindedness has been fully vindicated.

As you were, squad.  Carry on, my friends...

 

[WebShaman]

the ethics of cheating lies within the personal universe of the individual.

Except that this is really not about the ethics involved, but rather the core definition itself of what cheating is, and relating that to the game NWN (and I further refine it in reference to a Closed SP Environment).