106 réponses à ce sujet

[Queensilverwing]

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

This speaks of gently restoring a brother caught in a sin, bearing each other's burdens, and testing one's own actions. Then that person can take pride in themselves w/o comparing themselves to others. This quoted verse seems to suggest that a brother that deems themselves too great for such a task is incorrect in their self-evaluation.

I never offered this verse as proof of some silly debate on cheating and solo gaming; only my own agreement on the subject of self-deception.

Your own agreement to falsehood, since deceiving oneself is not possible.

And there are others: "Do not deceive yourselves. If one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a 'fool' so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight." ( I Cor 3:18-19a).. Or in Jer37:9, the prophet was told to inform the King that he was deceiving himself if he believed the Babylonians would withdraw and leave them alone.

A figure of speech? Perhaps, but one in which I agree completely.

That explains a lot. And it doesn't make the impossibility of deceiving oneself any less impossible. Your opinion is simply worthless to the facts one cannot deceive himself nor cheat in SP. Same as those believing the Earth was in the center of the universe and that everything was revolving around it didn't change the reality of facts.

I do hope that you don't take offence at my butting in here, unfortunately my own curiosity can be quite a pain to me!

I have no idea if Elhanan and you have a 'history', I've only recently taken to looking at NWN boards after a long hiatus from them.

Elhanan, while I am a spiritual person, I am not a religious one. That said, I see great wisdom within the verse you have quoted (which is in one or other of the books).

I don't think I completely agree with you Kail on the matter of self-deception. Personally, I think it is quite likely, even reasonable to allow for the act of self-deception. In some cases it would depend entirely upon that persons state of mind at the time.

Another example might be a smoker (of which I'm a club member!) or indeed any addict. Often as an addict we do deceive ourselves that 'that will never happen to us' it only happens to 'other people'. We can be quite determined to NOT be frightened by the prospect of something bad happening, that we convince ourselves that those things happen to weaker people, not us. Or maybe, it's the luck of the draw, some folk are more prone to a sickness than others. What the truth is I can't say for certain, because that also entirely depends upon the type of person one might be thinking of. What I can say is that self-deception is not such an impossibility given the right circumstances. Nor uncommon.

In terms of gaming does it happen? *puffs out cheeks and wrinkles snout* again, it could. I've known a (very few) players who have blurred the lines between fantasy (gaming) and reality, and have even gone so far as to travel to another country to pursue the fantasy/self-deception they have created.

In terms of SP gaming, I think the probability of self-deception is tiny. But just like the verse above about the King...never say never because 'never' may well be here already. *crosses her eyes at that statement...wonders, then shrugs*

On that err note, I shall leave for now and practise the art of deception on my self and become convinced that I actually did just make some sense.

Modifié par Queensilverwing, 18 septembre 2011 - 07:01 .

[Kail Pendragon]

Queensilverwing wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

This speaks of gently restoring a brother caught in a sin, bearing each other's burdens, and testing one's own actions. Then that person can take pride in themselves w/o comparing themselves to others. This quoted verse seems to suggest that a brother that deems themselves too great for such a task is incorrect in their self-evaluation.

I never offered this verse as proof of some silly debate on cheating and solo gaming; only my own agreement on the subject of self-deception.

Your own agreement to falsehood, since deceiving oneself is not possible.

And there are others: "Do not deceive yourselves. If one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a 'fool' so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight." ( I Cor 3:18-19a).. Or in Jer37:9, the prophet was told to inform the King that he was deceiving himself if he believed the Babylonians would withdraw and leave them alone.

A figure of speech? Perhaps, but one in which I agree completely.

That explains a lot. And it doesn't make the impossibility of deceiving oneself any less impossible. Your opinion is simply worthless to the facts one cannot deceive himself nor cheat in SP. Same as those believing the Earth was in the center of the universe and that everything was revolving around it didn't change the reality of facts.

I do hope that you don't take offence at my butting in here, unfortunately my own curiosity can be quite a pain to me!

I have no idea if Elhanan and you have a 'history', I've only recently taken to looking at NWN boards after a long hiatus from them.

Elhanan, while I am a spiritual person, I am not a religious one. That said, I see great wisdom within the verse you have quoted (which is in one or other of the books).

As a side note, I do not deny the possible wisdom one can get out of that reading (or any reading for the matter... even if the wisdom one sees was not intended to be there by the author, but I'm digressing). Still, that is a translation of a translation of a translation of a work which has no claim to be making sound logical claims. It is clearly a figure of speech, where "deceiving oneself" means "reaching the wrong conclusion" and not actually deceiving.

I don't think I completely agree with you Kail on the matter of self-deception. Personally, I think it is quite likely, even reasonable to allow for the act of self-deception. In some cases it would depend entirely upon that persons state of mind at the time.

Another example might be a smoker (of which I'm a club member!) or indeed any addict. Often as an addict we do deceive ourselves that 'that will never happen to us'

That's called wishful thinking. You are perfectly aware that it might happen to you but you hope it won't and you just make a conscious choice (possibly influenced by the strength of your addiction) to take your risks.

it only happens to 'other people'. We can be quite determined to NOT be frightened by the prospect of something bad happening, that we convince ourselves that those things happen to weaker people, not us. Or maybe, it's the luck of the draw, some folk are more prone to a sickness than others.

Not luck, genetics.

What the truth is I can't say for certain, because that also entirely depends upon the type of person one might be thinking of. What I can say is that self-deception is not such an impossibility given the right circumstances. Nor uncommon.

To be able to deceive oneself one should be at the same time both aware of the truth (as the deceiver) and not (as the one being deceived). Since there's only one subject, this is a logical impossibility. It's a pretty simple concept, although language and figures of speech seem to muddle the waters a little to a superficial approach.

In terms of gaming does it happen? *puffs out cheeks and wrinkles snout* again, it could. I've known a (very few) players who have blurred the lines between fantasy (gaming) and reality, and have even gone so far as to travel to another country to pursue the fantasy/self-deception they have created.

If you mean people with serious psychiatric issues, we already took them into account formerly somewhere. And yet there could be things to be said about that too.

In terms of SP gaming, I think the probability of self-deception is tiny. But just like the verse above about the King...never say never because 'never' may well be here already. *crosses her eyes at that statement...wonders, then shrugs*

On that err note, I shall leave for now and practise the art of deception on my self and become convinced that I actually did just make some sense.

Good practicing to you.

[WebShaman]

Speaking as an ex-smoker (yep, I kicked that habit!!! 11 years now, and still going strong!!), I can say without a shadow of a doubt that every smoker KNOWS/b] they are addicted, regardless of what they say to the contrary.

You get "reminded" of this the moment you go without a cigarette. Your BODY reminds you of this! Waking up after sleeping, your body literally *CRAVING* nicotine...you know you are addicted!

Now, you may not wish to acknowledge this. You may invent any number of reasons, thoughts, fantasies, etc to avoid facing this. I know I did. "I can stop whenever I want, I just don't want to".

Right?

Still, deep down inside, I knew the truth. I just didn't want to face it. There was NO deceiving myself. It was impossible. I tried quitting...many times. I came face to face with the absolute truth - I was addicted.

I eventually wrestled my will away from my addiction, and kicked it.

EVERY addict knows that they are addicted. They know they continue to need what they are addicted to. They cannot deceive themselves. Just attempt to deceive everyone else.

Now, it is true that there are those who do not wish to face facts. That it is *easier* to invent excuses to cover up the truth, to avoid having to face reality. But that is not self-deception. That person knows deep down inside what they are doing, even if they do not wish it to be true.

We see this quite often in lucid moments, don't we?

So no, you are not really deceiving yourself.  You are avoiding facing reality.  Avoidence of the fact.  Same goes for the unhealthy aspect of smoking.

Everyone who smokes knows that it is unhealthy - even those who have never been informed of this (assuming those exist) - because you [b]NOTICE this after awhile.  You cannot run as fast as far as before, your shortness of breath leaves you gasping for air far before it used to, before smoking.

Try swimming underwater, holding your breath.  Nowhere near how it used to be, before smoking...

That is your lungs getting the smackdown from smoking.

Keep on smoking...year after year.  Got that smoker's cough yet?  Well, wait for it...it will come.  Smoking tends to tar down the hairs in the throat, preventing them from moving.  They are responsible for some pretty important functions, as it turns out...Nasty thing.  How about taste, and smell?  Yes, smoking reduces those senses.  That is one of the first things I noticed, after quitting.  The intensity of taste and smell.

Eating became a joy again.

I won't get into the cancer thing.  Or emphysema.  Not meaning that one will get these, but the chances are certainly increased, aren't they?

Modifié par WebShaman, 18 septembre 2011 - 08:24 .

[Queensilverwing]

Kail said:
To be able to deceive oneself one should be at the same time both aware of the truth (as the deceiver) and not (as the one being deceived). Since there's only one subject, this is a logical impossibility. It's a pretty simple concept, although language and figures of speech seem to muddle the waters a little to a superficial approach.

*Blinks, then blinks again and lids her eyes in astonishment*

Damn, you got me there Kail...in order to deceive one has to be aware of the deception. Perhaps I was thinking of or should have used the word delusional?

As for luck Vs genetics *grins* ahh now, that's a tussle for another day...genetics will win out but it could be fun getting there

@Web - I am pleased you have been smoke-free for so long, it is always great to hear when someone manages to achieve something they really want!

And yes, if I am to be honest, at my age I know what risks I run by smoking. In my younger years, well, mortality is far far away and it was always easy to not look at the truth or indeed listen. For me it has never been the physical addiction, but something far worse to my own mind...the mental addiction. I did give up for 7 whole *grins* weeks, the physical side of things simply did not hit me, but after about 2 weeks, the mental addiction hit full on. Food did taste good though, but boy a lot of other stuff in the streets smelt horrid!

I wish I could be one of those people who only smoked twice a day, because the truth is, only those two roll-ups give me pleasure. Sadly, this one addiction is one I am not willing to give up, as stupid as I know it is *shrugs* I have no problem not smoking for hours on end if a friend or family member are about who do not smoke, after all, it is only polite and I can wait. Being an addictive nature I've given things up in my lifetime once I realised I was addicted. It was never a problem, but oddly, since I cannot abide anything controlling my head, smoking isn't one of those addictions I can, or maybe want to release its hold on me.

I am however, always really happy for those who do manage to give up anything in their lives which they feel is damaging them. It is always nice to know that the options are there, even if I never take them up.

Modifié par Queensilverwing, 19 septembre 2011 - 01:34 .

[WebShaman]

You do realize the damage you are doing to those around you by smoking, right?

How do you rationalize that?

[Elhanan]

Drinking and driving; truth is well known and ignored frequently. Same for cigarettes and those nice warning labels on the side of each pckg (though the price could be another indicator). Eating a diet of high fat, high calorie, heavy sodium, and health. Etc.

Or believing in that this useless debate will help anyone....

[WebShaman]

That is still not deceiving oneself. The one in question is AWARE of the fact that it is dangerous/unhealthy/etc, but chooses to do it anyway.

No deception involved here at all.

I would label that stupidity, myself.

[Queensilverwing]

WebShaman wrote...

You do realize the damage you are doing to those around you by smoking, right?

How do you rationalize that?

*Tilts her head and thinks carefully before answering*

I am the only smoker in our household, I also have my own (box) room where my computer is. My children are at school or playgroup, therefore I don't smoke in the same room as them very often. I do however at times. If a non-smoking friend or family member visit or stay over, I don't smoke. If they are staying overnight I go outside (as is the case with sister-inlaws over the last few weeks due to my mother-inlaw being not well).

My husband grew up in a smoking household and does not object, that s his choice. My choice is to smoke, obviously,  because I do. I'm certainly not a perfect human being, nor a perfect mother. I do the best I can with any given situation.

As an adult I make my own choices in life, some things are about family because I am a part of a family. But, there are some very few choices in life that are mine alone, not the mother or partner in me, but mine alone. Smoking is one of them. I try to do what I can to accomodate those that don't around me, but in the end, I refuse to relinquish that tiny part of me that is all me.

Do I feel guilty? I'm not honestly sure. Do I worry that I might be doing myself or others harm? No more than I worry about the hidious pollution we breath each day, or the antibiotics and other nasty stuff that is thrown or injected into our food. I try to live the best way I know how, treat others with respect and I hope, I have never hurt another living person through my own ignorance. It's simply the best I can do.

I'm not sure that is so much a rationalization as simple fact.

[WebShaman]

Well, I quit smoking for two reasons, really - due to financial reasons (cost of cigs here in Germany went through the roof, and I could not rationalize giving the German Government any more of my money) and due to my daughter.

The realization of what passive smoking does to non-smokers (my daughter and my wife) finally got me motivated to quit.

I don't mind harming myself - but I won't be responsible for doing it deliberately to others. That is just wrong.

BTW - this only applies to me.  YMMV.

Modifié par WebShaman, 19 septembre 2011 - 07:39 .

[Queensilverwing]

I won't deny those are very good reasons, even though it's not a path I have chosen yet for myself.

My vice is another persons idea of a nasty habit. Actually, my vice IS a nasty habit, no question about it!

As always WS, it is a pleasure to discuss a subject with you, even though I'm on the bottom end of the points board...lucky I'm not 'in it to win it' otherwise I'd be in a whole mess of trouble!

Modifié par Queensilverwing, 19 septembre 2011 - 07:55 .

[WebShaman]

Bottom end of the points board?

No, I don't think so. Many hold you in high esteem here, QSW.

I do.

So, back to your regularly scheduled topic...

[ffbj]

Congrats on quitting smoking. I quit for 10 years, and then started again. Though reading through your post it gave me a little boost to try and give it up again. In my job I meet many people with smoking related illnesses. It's really sad to see people 10 years my junior hauling around oxygen, and looking 10 years older than me. Yes it's horrific.

[WebShaman]

Wow, you went 10 years without, then started again?! O_o

Holy crud!!!

Just as all the damage done was finally repaired (just about - takes around 10 years), you started doing it again...

Well, no better time than now to quit!

You'll have more money...

[ffbj]

Yeah, that's really sad isn't it? 10 years off the smokes. The way I started back was having just 1 cigarette a day for about a month, then 2, bumming them of course. When I hit 3 a day, people started giving me the fish eye, so I bought a pack. Now I am up to about 10 a day, and going down from there. You are a good example. I am going to quit, forever.

[Queensilverwing]

*Ties ffbj down and sits on him with her considerable dragon b...err bulk*

Don't make me slap you little man, if you want to outrun this puffing dragon, you gotta be faster than her!

I know you can do it ffbj, you are a man of much resolve

[ffbj]

Thanks for the encouragement.

[Rolo Kipp]

<acting wise...>

Queensilverwing wrote...

Kail said:
To be able to deceive oneself one should be at the same time both aware of the truth (as the deceiver) and not (as the one being deceived). Since there's only one subject, this is a logical impossibility. It's a pretty simple concept, although language and figures of speech seem to muddle the waters a little to a superficial approach.

*Blinks, then blinks again and lids her eyes in astonishment*

Damn, you got me there Kail...in order to deceive one has to be aware of the deception. Perhaps I was thinking of or should have used the word delusional?

"Do I contradict myself? Very well then. I contradict myself. (I am large, I contain multitudes) - Song of Myself

:-)

Saying a human (or other sentient) is incapable of logical impossibility is to think in binary.

<...but he is not a very good actor>

Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 22 septembre 2011 - 12:08 .

[WebShaman]

I personally do not believe that someone can be in a state of knowing and not knowing at the same time.

I believe that someone simply chooses to ignore knowing - and damned be the consequences. But one should not be deceived here - ignoring knowing is not the same as actually not knowing. One is still aware of whatever it is one is ignoring. This is sort of like trying to convince oneself that something is not true - of course whatever it is is true, the person in question is just trying to avoid admitting it to themself.

Deep down inside, they know that. They are just not facing it.

[Rolo Kipp]

<over looking...>

WebShaman wrote...
I personally do not believe that someone can be in a state of knowing and not knowing at the same time.

Aye, there's the rub. Is the I the same this day as yesterday? Does it know the same things?
<shrugs>
Doubtful.
But possible.
And that is my (rather whimsical) point.
People change. Their *state* changes. What they conveniently pseudo-forget one day may be truly forgotten the next and startlingly remembered the third. 

But don't take me too seriously. I was an drunk for a decade. Now I've been an alcoholic (recovering) for 18 years.

But I do enjoy my Ceasar Berentinni full-bent briar with a half-bowl of Capt. Black Royal in it.

So, I gave up one addiction and guiltily enjoy another.  I'm old enough (and live far enough away from other people) that I'm ok with that. I *enjoy* both my logical aspects and my illogic =)

I believe that someone simply chooses to ignore knowing - and damned be the consequences. But one should not be deceived here - ignoring knowing is not the same as actually not knowing. One is still aware of whatever it is one is ignoring. This is sort of like trying to convince oneself that something is not true - of course whatever it is is true, the person in question is just trying to avoid admitting it to themself.

For the sake of arguing philosophy <and not because he's fiesty this morning> One might ignore knowing one day and genuinly forget the next, basing thought and action on a false foundation. The person would then have succeeded in avoiding admitting anything to themself.

Deep down inside, they know that. They are just not facing it.

<sigh>
Yes. And in the end, I admit that I agree with you.
And the first step in overcoming personal challenges is admitting they exist.

Still...
There is some fun in being just a tad bit insane 

<...his spectacles>

Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 23 septembre 2011 - 05:02 .

[WebShaman]

Yes, there is.

We all love to not be...serious all the time. It takes the juice out of living.

When existence is finite, living it becomes more paramount.

Take it from one who lived it.

These days? You know, you may consider me really beyond the deep end, but I totally enjoy the morning rays of the sun. It is a quiet, quasi-surreal moment. The landscape is gentle, flat grassy fields, with just a whisp of morning haze. The Sun, in his glory, signalling the day to come, has just risen, a rosy fireball low on the horizon...

The birds begin to sing.

The crispness of the air is indescribable.

You can't get this in a puff of tobacco, or a stiff drink.

Word.

Modifié par WebShaman, 23 septembre 2011 - 09:04 .

[Queensilverwing]

Rolo Kipp wrote...

<over looking...>

WebShaman wrote...
I personally do not believe that someone can be in a state of knowing and not knowing at the same time.

Aye, there's the rub. Is the I the same this day as yesterday? Does it know the same things?
<shrugs>
Doubtful.
But possible.
And that is my (rather whimsical) point.
People change. Their *state* changes. What they conveniently pseudo-forget one day may be truly forgotten the next and startlingly remembered the third. 

But don't take me too seriously. I was an drunk for a decade. Now I've been an alcoholic (recovering) for 18 years.

For the sake of arguing philosophy <and not because he's fiesty this morning> One might ignore knowing one day and genuinly forget the next, basing thought and action on a false foundation. The person would then have succeeded in avoiding admitting anything to themself.

Deep down inside, they know that. They are just not facing it.

<sigh>
Yes. And in the end, I admit that I agree with you.
And the first step in overcoming personal challenges is admitting they exist.

Still...
There is some fun in being just a tad bit insane 

*Grins* Life is full of contradictions, and the human mind is no less complex. Being a *tad* insane is often the only way to remain sane

Logically *shakes head* I don't always deal in logic well I'm afraid. We are emotional creatures and sometimes logic just gets in the way. Logically I have to admit all the above, but secretly? Secretly I know that it is possible for me to overlook, forgot and sometimes, ignore something without consciously knowing I am doing it.

Looking back in hindsight we see things we never see at the time of it happening. Personally, I trust my insticts and emotional responces to any given situation, over and above the logical explanation.

It is all so very complicated, the mind and most of all, other peoples minds!

Modifié par Queensilverwing, 23 septembre 2011 - 10:15 .

[ffbj]

Personally I think I understand how my brain works better now having lived with it for quite a few years now. My mind/brain tends to focus on things that have been recently or repetively experienced. You get this sort of experience of standing outside your brain and watching it, which seems weird to say, but there is this sort of dicotomy within my mind whereas I feel, at times, almost detached from my own thinking. I once told of friend of mine to think of all thoughts as coming from some alien intelligence, and to question them as such. In other words just because you thought of something there is no reason not to question it thoroughly. Or more simply, too critically examine you own thinking even as you would statements others make about their own thoughts.

In reference to WebShaman.  Today I was on the golf course and there were medium blue gray clouds with the sun peeking through.  Some geese flew overhead, honking. Just being, which is sometimes so hard to do, without anything added, no thought of being, just being, is really cool. 

Modifié par ffbj, 23 septembre 2011 - 11:13 .

[WebShaman]

Secretly I know that it is possible for me to overlook, forgot and sometimes, ignore something without consciously knowing I am doing it.

Looking back in hindsight we see things we never see at the time of it happening. Personally, I trust my insticts and emotional responces to any given situation, over and above the logical explanation.

So, let us examine this a bit more closely, for it requires such.

First of all, if one has forgotten something (and I mean truly forgotten, not just "I don't WANT to remember!" sort of thing, which is denial) - then one has not truly deceived oneself in such a situation. For one is not in a condition of knowing and not knowing at the same time - one truly does not know.

In regards to "overlook" and "ignore" - well, you may indeed do such things, especially in the "heat of the moment" or some other emotional state, but you still know better! You are just choosing not to heed your better judgement in such a case. This is not deceiving yourself at all. You know, but just choose to overlook or ignore it. And yes, this is a conscious choice, obviously, even if it is an emotionally based one.

One does *NOT* have to act on one's emotions! If the opposite were true, people would be getting away with all sorts of crimes, based on some sort of "me fuhlens made me do it, yer Honor!"

Now, one can get a milder sentence due to such emotional choices, but one is not freed from consequence here, because one DOES know what one is doing, one just chooses not to heed it.

It is like getting angry - you get angry. Ok. Physical responses excepted (your heat beats faster, pulserate higher, eyes dilate, adrenaline levels rise, breath rate rises, etc), but you do not need to act out based on your anger. You might feel compelled, sure. But the actual impulse is not the action itself - that requires a choice. You may, in such a circumstance do something against your better judgement, but you are AWARE that you are doing so, however remotely. You may not consider that important in the heat of the emotion, but you know that it is.

I still don't believe it is possible to know and not know at the same time - there is still a remote part, somewhere, that is aware, regardless of the stimuli.

I have been in war, probably one of the most sever emotional types of experience that one can have. And despite some of the things I experienced there, I can say that I was still in a state of awareness - sometimes in a way that is hard to explain. Even after a landmine exploded near me - and I was in a state of shock, I was still *aware* - a detached part of me was.

Modifié par WebShaman, 24 septembre 2011 - 11:33 .

[Kail Pendragon]

Queensilverwing wrote...

Kail said:
To be able to deceive oneself one should be at the same time both aware of the truth (as the deceiver) and not (as the one being deceived). Since there's only one subject, this is a logical impossibility. It's a pretty simple concept, although language and figures of speech seem to muddle the waters a little to a superficial approach.

*Blinks, then blinks again and lids her eyes in astonishment*

Damn, you got me there Kail...in order to deceive one has to be aware of the deception. Perhaps I was thinking of or should have used the word delusional?

Perhaps. One creates a fictional scenario one wants to believe in because it's more comforting and chooses to ignore and avoid as much as possible thinking about the real one... but if the individual and his thoughts (more o rless conscious) are taken as a whole one is aware of what one is doing... that is, you are aware you are actually avoiding to think about the consequences of your unhealthy habit, so you are not really deceiving yourself. You are just being a ******, if you allow me to say it

As for luck Vs genetics *grins* ahh now, that's a tussle for another day...genetics will win out but it could be fun getting there

Well, I dunno, actually having good genetics is a form of luck, ain't it?  The genes one gets are the result of something we can define random (akin to selecting lottery numbers), but any expert on the matter please feel free to correct me.

[Rolo Kipp]

<feeling in a quasi-mellow state...>

Kail Pendragon wrote...
Well, I dunno, actually having good genetics is a form of luck, ain't it?  The genes one gets are the result of something we can define random (akin to selecting lottery numbers), but any expert on the matter please feel free to correct me.

Interesting thing I read... The way chlorophyll captures photons and converts them to electrons is infinitely (literally) tricky, and so much more efficient than solar cells.  The tricky part comes from a structure that provides an infinity of paths for energy to take... when a photon strikes, it *finds its own* most efficient path and generates the maximum number of electrons. 

Perhaps it *is* luck, or perhaps it (all things chaotic and complex) are systems that are only waiting for the key bits (within a range of permissable bits) to fall into place, where upon they chug and churn and emit tiny puffs of steam and coronal discharge and with a spitting sound create something new :-)

I propose that if genetics were truly random, people would also be *much* more varied :-) 

<...in the morning sun>