649 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

filetemo wrote...

the batarians are an antagonist race
created to fill the role of baddies for a DLC of ME1. They hate us, so
we hate them. That's what they are in ME for

And that's stupid since they ain't antagonist in more then just 2-3 sidequests in 2 games.

Also, there was sad music and Shepard was sad when killed over 300k Batarians.

Modifié par Mesina2, 11 septembre 2011 - 12:11 .

[filetemo]

zsom wrote...

The problem it that you make an assumption without any sort of proof or example. You project your own moral values on the entire batarian culture because you want them to be morally on the same level as you.

Slavery is part of the batarian culture because it is a touchy subject for humans. As I said, the batarian race is designed by the developers so we can comfortably hate on them.

[ThePwener]

DaftArbiter wrote...

Sure it does, if we're not doing anything to stop it. And it gives us every right to fight back, but humans are at fault for starting the whole thing by colonizing batarian space and kicking them out of territory they possessed. The batarians legally asked for it to stop and the council said "No way, you guys are evil" and all it did was harden their hearts and make them feel convinced that everyone's out to get them. Thus they started a petit-guerre against humanity, certain that it was the only way they had to defend themselves from our encroachment and military might. If we fight back, great, but if we don't, let's not get on a soapbox and start hating them as a race because they have a culture that does something that we find distasteful.

You have to look at this from the batarians' perspective. Everyone hates them and everyone mistreats them because out of their whole existence, they've had a few idiots who cross the line. Slavery as an instutition has been practiced by them for thousands of years. They'll have to work it out of their system, and you'll have to accomodate them for it until they do, because their cultural values are different from ours and they don't believe that slavery is morally wrong (as far as we know). Our views might be incompatible and war might eventually be the only option, but are the batarians really quite so bad for doing something that we too were doing until quite recently?

That's not how it happened. The Batarians decided to leave, nobody kicked them out and nobody hated them. They weren't hated like the Quarians, what game did you play? Mass Effect: The Holocaust? They forced themselves into a corner and made themselves the victims of they're own fantasy world where everyone is bad except them.

[filetemo]

Mesina2 wrote...

filetemo wrote...

the batarians are an antagonist race
created to fill the role of baddies for a DLC of ME1. They hate us, so
we hate them. That's what they are in ME for

And that's stupid since they ain't antagonist in more then just 2-3 sidequests in 2 games.

Also, there was sad music and Shepard was sad when killed over 300k Batarians.

They needed a hateable race for the DLC and they expanded that race in ME2 because it was unreal that 100% of batarians were straight evil in a full-fledged sequel.

Why do you think you kill 300000 batarians in arrival instead of 300000 humans or asari? because since it's inevitable to kill them, you can always say "oh  well, they were dirty batarians anyway.Probably filthy slavers all of them"

[didymos1120]

DaftArbiter wrote...

 And it gives us every right to fight back, but humans are at fault for starting the whole thing by colonizing batarian space and kicking them out of territory they possesed.

That's not what happened.  They had settlements there, but they didn't possess the entire Skyllian Verge. They wanted to possess it, and they wanted the Council to say it was their and theirs alone. It's not like humans showed up and took batarian-inhabited worlds by force, or even set up colonies in the same systems.  They settled on other worlds that hadn't been populated by anyone.

[ThePwener]

Mesina2 wrote...

Also, there was sad music and Shepard was sad when killed over 300k Batarians.

Depends on how you see it.

1. You just killed 300,000 people! You monster!

2. You just killed 3000 human slaves! You monster!

3. How the hell are you gonna get out of here now! You idiot!

I take #3 for 400 creds Bob!

[Leonia]

filetemo wrote...

Slavery is part of the batarian culture because it is a touchy subject for humans. As I said, the batarian race is designed by the developers so we can comfortably hate on them.

While this is probably the intention, it doesn't make it "right" to hate the batarians just because the devs want us to feel that way. It's no more right than hating TIM or Cerberus. The problem is that people are too quick to impose their real life values on a fictional setting where the context is a lot different.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

ThePwener wrote...

DaftArbiter wrote...

Sure it does, if we're not doing anything to stop it. And it gives us every right to fight back, but humans are at fault for starting the whole thing by colonizing batarian space and kicking them out of territory they possessed. The batarians legally asked for it to stop and the council said "No way, you guys are evil" and all it did was harden their hearts and make them feel convinced that everyone's out to get them. Thus they started a petit-guerre against humanity, certain that it was the only way they had to defend themselves from our encroachment and military might. If we fight back, great, but if we don't, let's not get on a soapbox and start hating them as a race because they have a culture that does something that we find distasteful.

You have to look at this from the batarians' perspective. Everyone hates them and everyone mistreats them because out of their whole existence, they've had a few idiots who cross the line. Slavery as an instutition has been practiced by them for thousands of years. They'll have to work it out of their system, and you'll have to accomodate them for it until they do, because their cultural values are different from ours and they don't believe that slavery is morally wrong (as far as we know). Our views might be incompatible and war might eventually be the only option, but are the batarians really quite so bad for doing something that we too were doing until quite recently?

That's not how it happened. The Batarians decided to leave, nobody kicked them out and nobody hated them. They weren't hated like the Quarians, what game did you play? Mass Effect: The Holocaust? They forced themselves into a corner and made themselves the victims of they're own fantasy world where everyone is bad except them.

Key term: "Batarians' perspective". Humans started annexing worlds in their territory and they asked something be done about it. Nothing was done about it. It was pretty obvious at that point that the Council was on humanity's side. If they started a war with humanity, they would've been completely destroyed by the combined might of the Council.

[CroGamer002]

filetemo wrote...

They needed a hateable race for the DLC and they expanded that race in ME2 because it was unreal that 100% of batarians were straight evil in a full-fledged sequel.

Why do you think you kill 300000 batarians in arrival instead of 300000 humans or asari? because since it's inevitable to kill them, you can always say "oh  well, they were dirty batarians anyway.Probably filthy slavers all of them"

Ending of that DLC is very against that.

Bioware WANTS for you to care you committed genocide.

If someone didn't cared, either Bioware failed or that person just doesn't care about story at all or racist like you and some other people on BSN and this thread.

[ThePwener]

DaftArbiter wrote...

Key term: "Batarians' perspective". Humans started annexing worlds in their territory and they asked something be done about it. Nothing was done about it. It was pretty obvious at that point that the Council was on humanity's side. If they started a war with humanity, they would've been completely destroyed by the combined might of the Council.

Humans annexed Batarian populated worlds? The council defending humanity?

Either the Batarians are on weed 24/7 or you are when you played ME1.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

ThePwener wrote...

DaftArbiter wrote...

Key term: "Batarians' perspective". Humans started annexing worlds in their territory and they asked something be done about it. Nothing was done about it. It was pretty obvious at that point that the Council was on humanity's side. If they started a war with humanity, they would've been completely destroyed by the combined might of the Council.

Humans annexed Batarian populated worlds? The council defending humanity?

Either the Batarians are on weed 24/7 or you are when you played ME1.

Stop twisting my words. Territory =/= "populated worlds". ME canon and the codex make this very clear: Humans were entering territory that Batarians already had claims in and the Batarians got forced out because there wasn't anyone on their side.

Modifié par DaftArbiter, 11 septembre 2011 - 12:23 .

[ThePwener]

Mesina2 wrote...

If someone didn't cared, either Bioware failed or that person just doesn't care about story at all or racist like you and some other people on BSN and this thread.

So I should care that I just destroyed a planet full of a race who casually obliterates other planets full of millions of humans (Bring Down the Sky) out of sheer bitterness?

I call it Karma/payback

[didymos1120]

ThePwener wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Also, there was sad music and Shepard was sad when killed over 300k Batarians.

Depends on how you see it.

1. You just killed 300,000 people! You monster!

2. You just killed 3000 human slaves! You monster!

3. How the hell are you gonna get out of here now! You idiot!

I take #3 for 400 creds Bob!

OK, one, the vast majority of that 300,000 was enslaved (only 90,000 counted as "free").  Two, you already were out of there when they die.

[Leonia]

ThePwener wrote...

DaftArbiter wrote...

Key term: "Batarians' perspective". Humans started annexing worlds in their territory and they asked something be done about it. Nothing was done about it. It was pretty obvious at that point that the Council was on humanity's side. If they started a war with humanity, they would've been completely destroyed by the combined might of the Council.

Humans annexed Batarian populated worlds? The council defending humanity?

Either the Batarians are on weed 24/7 or you are when you played ME1.

Ad hominem attacks.. classy!

And the Council most certainly has taken up humanity's side, what were you smoking when playing ME1?

[ThePwener]

didymos1120 wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Also, there was sad music and Shepard was sad when killed over 300k Batarians.

Depends on how you see it.

1. You just killed 300,000 people! You monster!

2. You just killed 3000 human slaves! You monster!

3. How the hell are you gonna get out of here now! You idiot!

I take #3 for 400 creds Bob!

OK, one, the vast majority of that 300,000 was enslaved (only 90,000 counted as "free").  Two, you already were out of there when they die.

I see no difference. They wouldn't have either. In real life, I wouldn't have pushed that button smiling (God knows Shepard din't either even though I yelled "HELLZ YEAH ****ES" when he did) but I still would have gone through with it.

[didymos1120]

ThePwener wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

If someone didn't cared, either Bioware failed or that person just doesn't care about story at all or racist like you and some other people on BSN and this thread.

So I should care that I just destroyed a planet full of a race who casually obliterates other planets full of millions of humans (Bring Down the Sky) out of sheer bitterness?

I call it Karma/payback

I call this nonsense.  A lot of the batarians who came with Balak had zero interest in dropping asteroids on human colonies.  Given the opportunity, they're quite happy to get the hell out of there and provide Shep what he/she needs take down Balak.  To declare that an entire planet of batarians (most of whom are slaves anyway) would somehow be more monolithic in their opinions than guys who were actually there during the only known attempt by a batarian to do such a thing is rank stupidity.

Modifié par didymos1120, 11 septembre 2011 - 12:31 .

[filetemo]

Mesina2 wrote...

filetemo wrote...

They needed a hateable race for the DLC and they expanded that race in ME2 because it was unreal that 100% of batarians were straight evil in a full-fledged sequel.

Why do you think you kill 300000 batarians in arrival instead of 300000 humans or asari? because since it's inevitable to kill them, you can always say "oh  well, they were dirty batarians anyway.Probably filthy slavers all of them"

Ending of that DLC is very against that.

Bioware WANTS for you to care you committed genocide.

If someone didn't cared, either Bioware failed or that person just doesn't care about story at all or racist like you and some other people on BSN and this thread.

Bioware WANTS for you to care you committed genocide to a certain point, that's why they chose batarians, so you feel bad but not excessively.

If I was was forced to kill 300000 living beings, I'd rather choose 300000 rapists than 300000 innocent woman and children.

By killing batarians you have the moral escape to think they were mostly slavers if you want.

Besides, what's with this "people shouldn't use their own moral values? which ones do you want us to use? the races of ME are designed around our moral values, especially the batarians and the whole slavery thing because it's accepted as universally bad.

Moral relativism is a double edged blade.
"let's accept baby-eating children's Krogan into our human society because it's their tradition and it's fine to them, who are you to judge?"

[zsom]

filetemo wrote...
They needed a hateable race for the DLC and they expanded that race in ME2 because it was unreal that 100% of batarians were straight evil in a full-fledged sequel.

Why do you think you kill 300000 batarians in arrival instead of 300000 humans or asari? because since it's inevitable to kill them, you can always say "oh  well, they were dirty batarians anyway.Probably filthy slavers all of them"

Well that and any other race would have been a huge plot hole... If the reaper artifact had been in asari space, there would have been no reason for a stealth mission to investigate it. They could just ask he assari to let the alliance do some research. Then Kenson wouldn't end up in a prison, and there would be no reason for Shepard to save her.

[ThePwener]

leonia42 wrote...

And the Council most certainly has taken up humanity's side, what were you smoking when playing ME1?

Really? Tell me of one occasion where they pulled through for humanity? So they let us take a few planets, it wasn't something that affected them, so they didn't care.

We needed them in ME2 to help the colonies, and all we got was air quotes. **** the Council and **** the Batarians. They haven't done anything for us and even if they did in ME3 if we tolerated them, I don't care. I shouldn't have to put up with someone to make them my friend.

God says to turn the other cheek, but I respectfully disagree. I just don't have that kind of love to my fellow man who rapes, slaughters and wages war. I just don't.

[didymos1120]

filetemo wrote...

By killing batarians you have the moral escape to think they were mostly slavers if you want.

No, you don't.  Only 90,000 of those batarians were free citizens.  Also, no population that size could support a "slavers-only" economy.  You're only free to think that if, well, you don't bother to think at all.

[BatmanPWNS]

ThePwener wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

If someone didn't cared, either Bioware failed or that person just doesn't care about story at all or racist like you and some other people on BSN and this thread.

So I should care that I just destroyed a planet full of a race who casually obliterates other planets full of millions of humans (Bring Down the Sky) out of sheer bitterness?

I call it Karma/payback

So your going to kill innocent Batarians over some other Batarians cruelty? That's like saying just because a few people in a nation did something evil they all deserve to die.

[ThePwener]

didymos1120 wrote...

I call this nonsense.  A lot of the batarians who came with Balak had zero interest in dropping asteroids on human colonies.  Given the opportunity, they're quite happy to get the hell out of there and provide Shep what he/she needs take down Balak.  To declare that an entire planet of batarians (most of whom are slaves anyway) would somehow be more monolithic in their opinions than guys who were actually there during the only known attempt by a batarian to do such a thing is rank stupidity.

Well aren't you the philosophical saint. Im sorry, I really am, but those Batarians may have been reluctant, but they still went along with it like it was nothing, no qualms about it either. They just brushed it off like they were killing moths.

[didymos1120]

ThePwener wrote...

We needed them in ME2 to help the colonies, and all we got was air quotes.

Colonies that weren't in Council-space and weren't goverened by the Alliance. 

[filetemo]

why does people consider Vorcha mindless violent vermin? they are like that because their homeworld was tough! Them being not very smart and aggresive is the result of the changes made for survivability! being mercenaries is part of their culture, as is blowing themselves with flamethrower packs! Vorcha for squadmate! Vorcha for LI!

with moral relativity we can always find a way to defend even the most despicable individuals or races this way.

Modifié par filetemo, 11 septembre 2011 - 12:36 .

[ThePwener]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

So your going to kill innocent Batarians over some other Batarians cruelty? That's like saying just because a few people in a nation did something evil they all deserve to die.

It's called pragmatism. And I wouldn't do it if the Reapers weren't coming, but too bad for those slaves (which were ****ed either way considering they're slaves) space cthulus were indeed on they're merry way to eradicate all lif on the galaxy.