649 réponses à ce sujet

[Ahglock]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

I still hope that in some future ME product we'll get a more in depth look at the Batarians. Nothing too crazy, but when a good portion of the information we get about them is from biased sources or is coloured by their somewhat awful government it begins to feel like we know next to nothing about them as a race other than their political agenda and corruptions. Certainly in comparison to the other races.

I think there will be a great story to be told about the race picking themselves up after being almost completely devestated by the Reapers in ME3 (seemingly).

I don't know.  Soemtimes it is cool in fiction to have the bad guy race and just keep it like that.  They are the bad guys.  I mean yeah you can always go Star Trek on them and show how everyone is good in their own way or whatever, we can all become friends and hold hands and sing hippie songs.  But you can also go Star Wars and the empire is the empire and they are bad, and you don't feel bad that 1,000,000 people were stationed on the death star and quite a few of them were decent average joes.  So if the batairns pick themselve up it is just to restart in their evil ways, mwahahaha!!!

[Ahglock]

eternalnightmare13 wrote...

Batarians killed my Shep's family, friends, razed his colony of Mindoir when he was a teenager.  His first major campaign in the Systems Alliance military involved batarian slavers on Torfan.  Every batarian he's met since - Balak - and beyond has been either a merc or terrorist.  Just reinforcing the ideology that the only good batarian is a dead one.  Show me one batarian that's not a slaver, pirate, human hating zealot, merc or general scumbag?

PS: This is a game and it's perfectly fine to dislike a character/race/vehicle/etc not a poli-sci 101 class.

As long as you are keeping it in persepctive all is cool in the world.  The people who actually hate X or love Y kind of distrub me.  

[Apollo Starflare]

Ahglock wrote...

I don't know.  Soemtimes it is cool in fiction to have the bad guy race and just keep it like that.  They are the bad guys.  I mean yeah you can always go Star Trek on them and show how everyone is good in their own way or whatever, we can all become friends and hold hands and sing hippie songs.  But you can also go Star Wars and the empire is the empire and they are bad, and you don't feel bad that 1,000,000 people were stationed on the death star and quite a few of them were decent average joes.  So if the batairns pick themselve up it is just to restart in their evil ways, mwahahaha!!!

I disagree, a black and white situation such as that can be hard to pull off believably and does the rich universe they have created for the Mass Effect franchise a disservice. Not to mention that the Batarians are not the bad guys. They aren't the ones who have invaded Earth or threatened to destroy the Citadel races, are they? They are presented as a race of people, ruled by a corrupt government who harbour a deep resentment for Humanity (in particular) due to both real and perceived past grievances. It boils down to condeming an entire race for the actions of smaller group, considering the state they are in post-Reaper invasion it smacks of a complete lack of compassion as well. I mean what threat are they anyway?

Besides, the examples you use are somewhat flawed, Trek's had it's fair share of 'EEEEVUL' races and the Empire has been portrayed numerous times as a grey villain in Star Wars. I think the Reapers are more than enough unsympathetic evil for one series anyway, and this series deserves a much more subtle handling of such things.

Frankly the desire some people have for the Batarians to be simply portrayed as evil bad guys who we can happily massacre is quite worrying. This is one area I don't think the game should differ from the real world in personally.

[pfhorlorn]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

I mean, seriously, OP, how can you not even understand why they are hated?

I can see why people would have a negative opinion of Batarians, but I still think there's a lot more to it than that.

Modifié par koopaonfire, 11 septembre 2011 - 05:59 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Ahglock wrote...

As long as you are keeping it in persepctive all is cool in the world.  The people who actually hate X or love Y kind of distrub me.  

I love oxygen and hate sunburn. This disturbs you.



On topic:  The batarian hate is quite simple.


Shep hasn't had a female batarian yet.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 11 septembre 2011 - 05:36 .

[essarr71]

koopaonfire wrote...
I understand it now, but I still think that people who hate batarians aren't very good at forming well thought out opinions.

So you understand why people feel that way, but still think they're idiots?

Not sure if you know what 'understands' mean.
I'll give you a little assist here:

Your line should read:
"I can see why people would have a negative opinion of Batarians, but I still think there's a lot more to it then that."

Unless you were intent on insulting people.. in which case, I'll defer to the people you were calling out to defend themselves.

Modifié par essarr71, 11 septembre 2011 - 05:51 .

[SandTrout]

leonia42 wrote...

Fictional racism isn't any better than real racism.

First off, it is a separate species, not a race. The word is misused in ME. Secondly, you should be happy to know that my issues with Batarians stem from their culture, not some intrinsic genetic quality. The fact that all members of the culture are also of the Batarian species is largely coincedental for me. The fact that nearly every member of the species also holds to that culture causes me to have a justified prejudice regarding members of the species.

[CroGamer002]

^And what other word we should use then racism?

Cause it has pretty much the same meaning when it's used, only ain't restricted to race.
Though species is often consider a race in fictions.

[Azbeszt]

Mesina2 wrote...

^And what other word we should use then racism?

Cause it has pretty much the same meaning when it's used, only ain't restricted to race.
Though species is often consider a race in fictions.

Specism, i guess.

[pfhorlorn]

essarr71 wrote...

Your line should read:
"I can see why people would have a negative opinion of Batarians, but I still think there's a lot more to it then that."

Same thing, but suuure. Changed it.

And at above posts concerning racism: the term "race" can be loosely used to refer to both race between humanity and actual different species; race generally means a group that's set apart from others based on their pheno- and genotypes, so it could actually apply to species-ism.

Modifié par koopaonfire, 11 septembre 2011 - 06:00 .

[SandTrout]

Azbeszt wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^And what other word we should use then racism?

Cause it has pretty much the same meaning when it's used, only ain't restricted to race.
Though species is often consider a race in fictions.

Specism, i guess.

There aren't many good buzz-words to use for it, but why do we need to use one?

Racism against human populations is baseless and usaully derived from either lies or theories that have been proven false, and the 'barriers' that exist between races are usually just as imaginary beyond superficial physical differences. This is the reason that racism is repugnant.

Species differentiation are very real, insurmountable barriers. There are behavioral and structural differences that will exist. This means that making judgments based on species is not the same as making judgments based on race.

Modifié par SandTrout, 11 septembre 2011 - 06:08 .

[CroGamer002]

I'll just call this people bigots instead.

It's the same thing, only not restricted to race.

[SandTrout]

Mesina2 wrote...

I'll just call this people bigots instead.

It's the same thing, only not restricted to race.

That works, technically. However, then the question because is their bigotry justified or not?

[BlueMagitek]

Well we haven't really had an impactful "good" Batarian. In ME 1, we start out with seeing a few Turians; Nihlius (who gets on Joker's nerves but isn't necessarily bad), Saren (human hating villain) & the Turian councilor (who is an ass). We go on to see neutral and good Turians as well (Pallin & Garrus). We see the same thing capacity for good & evil with Asari. The wounded Batarian and the shopkeeper Batarian really aren't major or have any impact on us, while we're bombarded by evil Batarians either in backstory or throughout the two games.

It's easier to ask why people think Batarians aren't all this way when we have very limited examples of them being "good".

[SandTrout]

BlueMagitek wrote...

It's easier to ask why people think Batarians aren't all this way when we have very limited examples of them being "good".

That is because people have been lured into the false impression that all sapient species will exhibit the same general behaviors as humans and at least loosly comparable moral foundations. This is why I try to stay away from the esoteric concepts of 'Good' and 'Evil'. I prefer 'Threat' and 'Asset'.

[Kail Ashton]

cause they're ugly, that's the universal a-ok to hate any species, durh (also the slave thing)

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

We can debate this slavery thing, that humans did and do it out of ignorance. Ignorance? No. Knowingly did this for thousands of years. Human history is built on the backs of slaves. The Batarians represent the worst humanity has to offer. Bigotry at its best. It's just that they're open about it while humans like to sweep these historical tidbits under the rug. We have human trafficking today. Children are taken for sex slaves or sold into slavery around the world. It goes under the radar.

This said, I can say this: MY Colonist Shepard HATES SLAVERS. She was willing to let Charn go on BDtS until he mentioned the snatch and grab some slaves operation. Balak was a guddamn terrorist. Marsh? No. No problem with Marsh. The Batarian bartender? Well since he tried to kill Shepard that changed the opinion there. Salkie? This guy I wouldn't mind as a squadmate. He was just doing his job, and didn't make any anti-human remarks.

We like the Turians now because they helped build the Normandy, and there's Garrus.

So do you hate the Batarians because of their slavery? What about the slaves? Most of them are Batarian, too. Do you hate them?

I really hope we get a Batarian squadmate that was assigned by the Council. The interaction between Shepard and the Batarian would be interesting. I'd like to see what's left of the Hegonomy. I imagine the government would be similar to Rome. My thought is that I think the Batarians aren't going to have much use for slaves during ME3. I think the slaves are going to be needed to be trained so they can contribute in their fight against the Reapers.

But as far as Shepard negotiating with the Batarians? I don't think that would work at all. From their viewpoint (s)he's a mass murderer. The Council would have to send a representative other than Shepard.

When Shepard shows up a lot of people tend to die. I just wonder what Shepard's body count is from ME1 through ME2 incl the DLC. I'm pretty sure it's up around a 400,000. Including those refinery workers -- look I was metagaming.... I needed that Assault rifle upgrade for that attempted playthrough on insane.

Of course we know the Krogan would approve of Shepard blowing up the relay. A bit extreme, but they'd approve. Big explosion. They like big explosions. I think Shepard is hoping to draw a Krogan judge for the trial.

[Legbiter]

The only good batarian is a dead batarian.

[AlexXIV]

SandTrout wrote...

Species differentiation are very real, insurmountable barriers. There are behavioral and structural differences that will exist. This means that making judgments based on species is not the same as making judgments based on race.

Well there are dogs that would bite you and such that would not. So much for real differentiation. The common thing about racism or specism is that you generalize, and in worst case judge a majority of people on the behaviour of a few, maybe only a hand full you met personally.

[filetemo]

Mesina2 wrote...

I'll just call this people bigots instead.

It's the same thing, only not restricted to race.

why this animosity over a videogame race discussion?
do you belong to any kind of "oppressed" minority?

Modifié par filetemo, 11 septembre 2011 - 10:20 .

[RAF1940]

They raid human colonies.

[didymos1120]

Azbeszt wrote...

Specism, i guess.

No, speciesism already has an established usage in referring to how humans treat animals.   Besides, "race" can mean "species" anyway (though its technical use now typically means "subspecies", but popular usage =/= technical usage).  Besides, use of "racism" in the ME context is a straighforward extension of the word's current meaning: believing that inherent biological traits justifies discrimination and bigotry. 

People are of course free to b!tch all they like about how it's not perfectly "logical" or whatever, but it's a fool's errand.  Language is not, and never has been, a great respecter of what would be the most "logical".  Words are extended (and created) as needed, typically by applying whichever word currently has a meaning that is most similar to the newly encountered idea/object/situation/whatever, and not according to the fine points of their etymology.

So, for myself, "racism" it is.

[Kmead15]

AlexXIV wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Species differentiation are very real, insurmountable barriers. There are behavioral and structural differences that will exist. This means that making judgments based on species is not the same as making judgments based on race.

Well there are dogs that would bite you and such that would not. So much for real differentiation. The common thing about racism or specism is that you generalize, and in worst case judge a majority of people on the behaviour of a few, maybe only a hand full you met personally.

Just because differences exist between individuals in a single species does not mean that differences between species cannot exist. It just means you generalized about the wrong thing. "All dogs bite" might be incorrect, but "All dogs are incapable of doing my Differential Equations homework" is pretty much true.

[Ghar Thurion]

I think 4 eyes burn better than two. *evil renegade laughter*