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[SandTrout]

Swimming Ferret wrote...

Funny how people aren't all hating on Asari for having that fancier slavery. :/

Asari aren't raiding human colonies for those slaves.

[didymos1120]

SandTrout wrote...

Swimming Ferret wrote...

Funny how people aren't all hating on Asari for having that fancier slavery. :/

Asari aren't raiding human colonies for those slaves.

Nor is it something that is pandemic in asari space.  Not that I'm on the batarian hate bandwagon myself.

[Leonia]

We like to call them indentured servants.

And it's not exactly the same thing, given all the contract restrictions and safeguards.

[Swimming Ferret]

It's still slavery, no matter the privileges and way the slaves are gathered. So because the Asari are more passive about it, it's okay?

Alright, indentured servitude then.

Modifié par Swimming Ferret, 13 septembre 2011 - 08:06 .

[Leonia]

Swimming Ferret wrote...

It's still slavery, no matter the privileges and way the slaves are gathered. So because the Asari are more passive about it, it's okay?

According to the laws of Illium? Yes. According to the rest of Citadel space? No.

Grey area is slightly grey.

It's kind of like how Noveria gets away with so much illegal research, loop-holes in the government. Whether that is good or bad from a moral standpoint.. well, we could argue that all day and not come to a compromise.

Modifié par leonia42, 13 septembre 2011 - 08:07 .

[SandTrout]

Swimming Ferret wrote...

It's still slavery, no matter the privileges and way the slaves are gathered. So because the Asari are more passive about it, it's okay?

Actually, yes. Contracts are entered into voluntarily with full knowledge of both signing parties, and not forcibly as with the Batarians.

The indentured servitude system on Ilium as it is presented is the equivalent of prostitution, where as Batarian slavery is rape.

[Swimming Ferret]

SandTrout wrote...

Swimming Ferret wrote...

It's still slavery, no matter the privileges and way the slaves are gathered. So because the Asari are more passive about it, it's okay?

Actually, yes. Contracts are entered into voluntarily with full knowledge of both signing parties, and not forcibly as with the Batarians.

The indentured servitude system on Ilium as it is presented is the equivalent of prostitution, where as Batarian slavery is rape.

People can still be easily tricked into servitude; so we saw the quarian who willingly signed herself over to save herself from debt. What about other slaves who didn't do it so willingly? They could be tricked, or pressured or even threatened. It's still a form of slavery, no matter how sugar coated it is.

But of course the Batarians are still the scrouge of the galaxy and everything bad happens is because of them. Seriously, BW writers, try and be a little more creative. <_<

Lol, watch out for those analogies. You'll get people screeching about how insenstive you are.

[Leonia]

It's a rather accurate analogy that makes the point it is intended to, so what's the harm?

[Swimming Ferret]

leonia42 wrote...

It's a rather accurate analogy that makes the point it is intended to, so what's the harm?

None that I see, but you get some folk who fly into self-righteous RAEG's over it and act all "Omfg u insensitive bastard u obviously think dat those people who were raped so totally desevered it BAWWWWWWW" and so on.

[SandTrout]

leonia42 wrote...

It's a rather accurate analogy that makes the point it is intended to, so what's the harm?

This.

Political correctness is the bane of my existence. People claiming offense is simply a means of dodging the point, usually.

Edit, to clarify, I know that you're just giving me fair warning, I'm just letting you know I don't care about those whiners.

Modifié par SandTrout, 13 septembre 2011 - 08:23 .

[Leonia]

Adding emotion to any argument is usually a bad idea, political correctness is holding us back from achieving things that actually matter. But I digress..

I don't exactly support indentured servitude any more than I support batarian slavery but that doesn't mean racism against the batarians is completely unjustified and that one must be racist towards both groups if they are not to be labelled as a hypocrite. Not that I support racism either but in their defense..

Modifié par leonia42, 13 septembre 2011 - 08:27 .

[SandTrout]

They are different species, not races, leonia, it's good to remember that little point.

Racism is a very emotionally charged term.

Modifié par SandTrout, 13 septembre 2011 - 08:31 .

[Leonia]

SandTrout wrote...

They are different species, not races, leonia, it's good to remember that little point.

Racism is a very emotionally charged term.

Ugh, yeah, sorry.. Star Wars nerd here, I keep wanting to say races.

[TobyHasEyes]

leonia42 wrote...

Adding emotion to any argument is usually a bad idea, political correctness is holding us back from achieving things that actually matter. But I digress..

I don't exactly support indentured servitude any more than I support batarian slavery but that doesn't mean racism against the batarians is completely unjustified and that one must be racist towards both groups if they are not to be labelled as a hypocrite. Not that I support racism either but in their defense..

 If anything political correctness forces people to communicate in a way that won't introduce emotion into an argument (if someone using offensive terminology ends up offending someone, I wouldn't blame the person who was offended for the introduction of emotion into the argument..) But anyway..

 A good point regarding the Asari.. evidently some Asari, some Turians, some Humans and some Batarians support slavery

 The huge obvious big point which slams down any hate of each and every Batarian is that you are prejudging them, as you haven't met them all. Though, especially if a Shepard has had personal experience of Batarians acting cruelly, it would be understandable for the character, for people in real life to genuinely hold an anti-Batarian view is not cool

[TobyHasEyes]

leonia42 wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

They are different species, not races, leonia, it's good to remember that little point.

Racism is a very emotionally charged term.

Ugh, yeah, sorry.. Star Wars nerd here, I keep wanting to say races.

 And though I agree that species would be a better term.. the ME universe does refer to the Council races etc.

[SandTrout]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 The huge obvious big point which slams down any hate of each and every Batarian is that you are prejudging them, as you haven't met them all. Though, especially if a Shepard has had personal experience of Batarians acting cruelly, it would be understandable for the character, for people in real life to genuinely hold an anti-Batarian view is not cool

It's all from a in-universe perspective. I don't waste time in real life hating Batarians. I do find it enjoyable to discuss these kinds of points about applying morality and philosophy into the hypothetical in-game scenarios, though.

Edit:

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 And though I agree that species would be a better term.. the ME universe does refer to the Council races etc.

Much to my chagrin.

Modifié par SandTrout, 13 septembre 2011 - 08:38 .

[didymos1120]

SandTrout wrote...

They are different species, not races, leonia, it's good to remember that little point.

Racism is a very emotionally charged term.

And "speciesism" already has an established meaning referring to how humans treat non-sapient animals, while using "racism" in these contexts is a straighforward extension of its current meaning and it is also used that way within the games and novels themselves. You can lament the vagaries of language, but AFAIC it's just an exercise in futile pedantry to keep diverting on the "don't say 'racist'" issue.

[Leonia]

TobyHasEyes wrote..

 And though I agree that species would be a better term.. the ME universe does refer to the Council races etc.

He was being ironic about the definitions, though the ME universe does seem to flip-flop between species and races depending on what you're reading.

[TobyHasEyes]

SandTrout wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 The huge obvious big point which slams down any hate of each and every Batarian is that you are prejudging them, as you haven't met them all. Though, especially if a Shepard has had personal experience of Batarians acting cruelly, it would be understandable for the character, for people in real life to genuinely hold an anti-Batarian view is not cool

It's all from a in-universe perspective. I don't waste time in real life hating Batarians. I do find it enjoyable to discuss these kinds of points about applying morality and philosophy into the hypothetical in-game scenarios, though.

Edit:

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 And though I agree that species would be a better term.. the ME universe does refer to the Council races etc.

Much to my chagrin.

 Thats fair. In that case I would say again that though I'd find its understandable that someone who has suffered badly at the hands of Batarian slavers might then hold a general anti-Batarians sentiment, but not justified

 And I have no problem with political correctness :happy:

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

What about the Batarian slaves? Do people hate them, too? There also seem to be more Batarian slaves than free Batarians. Yet the free Batarians (other than the mercs) want more slaves of other races and hire mercs to get them for them. The Batarian slaves have done nothing to you.

[didymos1120]

leonia42 wrote...

He was being ironic about the definitions, though the ME universe does seem to flip-flop between species and races depending on what you're reading.

Well, the two words are synonyms.  They've just acquired other specialized, technical senses that tend to be used more often nowadays, but you do still encounter them being used interchangably.  "Race" also has the advantage of being more general and including the concept of groups with a common history and culture, which the sapient species in ME most certainly do.

[TobyHasEyes]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

What about the Batarian slaves? Do people hate them, too? There also seem to be more Batarian slaves than free Batarians. Yet the free Batarians (other than the mercs) want more slaves of other races and hire mercs to get them for them. The Batarian slaves have done nothing to you.

 A very good point which drives home why a generalised anti-Batarian sentiment isn't justified or accurate

[didymos1120]

Oh, and "You humans are all speciesist!" really doesn't have the same ring, now does it?

[Leonia]

didymos1120 wrote...

Oh, and "You humans are all speciesist!" really doesn't have the same ring, now does it?

Fair point.

[lovgreno]

leonia42 wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote..

 And though I agree that species would be a better term.. the ME universe does refer to the Council races etc.

He was being ironic about the definitions, though the ME universe does seem to flip-flop between species and races depending on what you're reading.

In the ME world aliens are not realy very alien, it's more like slightly different human cultures, so I guess it's no big deal.