649 réponses à ce sujet

[armass]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Batarians are very much like humans. You don't like them? Remember that you are looking into a mirror. And also it's always the comfortable generalisation of ugly = evil.

Bingo.  The batarians are basically representations of all the things human society has supposed to have grown out of, but hasn't.  We don't like to see all our faults being paraded in front of us, even if they're wearing four-eyed masks.  Racism?  Slavery?  Oppressive governments?  Piracy?  Gangs?  Terrorism?  Yep.  Humans still do that, unfortunately.

And the sad part is, a lot of this mess could have been avoided if it weren't for stupid decisions made by powerful people.  Alliance makes a dumb move, Hegemony makes a dumber move, Council derps as usual, and suddenly there's a war.

I find the whole setup with the batarians fascinating, because that's how racism works in real life.  When all you see or hear about for so long are the bad examples, you start to wonder if that's the norm.  Nobody ever tells you batarians are decent or just like us, and when you run into one that's not a bad guy, everyone around you treats it like some sort of anomaly.

It's either a setup for a sucker punch or desensitization for something truly horrible that's about to happen.  Hell, maybe Arrival was that horrible thing we needed to be desensitized for, and ME3's the sucker punch.

Excellent post!

Modifié par armass, 08 septembre 2011 - 11:24 .

[ADLegend21]

armass wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Let's see Batarians:
Attack human colonies, including theone shepard grew up on in that background
Attacked a human colony that Shepard had to defend single handedly in that psych
Shepard destroyed a Batarian terrorist base in the ruthless background FOR attacking a human colony.
Batarians annexed an Asari colony
Batarians attacked the salarian colony of Mannovai
Batarians tried to ram an asteroid intothe capital of one of humanitiesmost prosperous colonies
They tried to Kill Mordin's assitant while he tried to CURE the plague.
They kidnapped Kenson and were going to torture her before Shepard save dher when she was doing investigations on the REAPERS.

I'd gladly sacrafice every batarian in the milky way because they have no sense of compassion, diplomacy, or willingness to coexist peacefully, plus their culture is based on slavery so they've got to go. I'm amazed that the Asari didn't send in the commandoes tow ipe them out after they annexed that colony.

Krogan act the same way also. They tried to conquer the whole galaxy once.

Under wreav, Hell yes. Under Urdnot wre however the Krogan have a certain cvivility about them. Wrex is making the species better so that they CAN interact on the galactic level. The Krogan that did act that way however , clan werlyoc, get wiped out in Mordin's mission so that's taken care of. Plus there are Krogan on the citadel, no batarians because they succeeded from council space and make slave grabs. Krogan's do not. They hire themselves out as Mercs and stay on tuchanka where Wrex is building a Krogan civilization by uniting the Clans. Hell by Me3 I think he succeeds because he'son the Salarian homeworld getting a fertile female thathas the genphage cure from Mordin.

[marshalleck]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Batarians are very much like humans. You don't like them? Remember that you are looking into a mirror. And also it's always the comfortable generalisation of ugly = evil.

Bingo.  The batarians are basically representations of all the things human society has supposed to have grown out of, but hasn't.  We don't like to see all our faults being paraded in front of us, even if they're wearing four-eyed masks.  Racism?  Slavery?  Oppressive governments?  Piracy?  Gangs?  Terrorism?  Yep.  Humans still do that, unfortunately.

And the sad part is, a lot of this mess could have been avoided if it weren't for stupid decisions made by powerful people.  Alliance makes a dumb move, Hegemony makes a dumber move, Council derps as usual, and suddenly there's a war.

I find the whole setup with the batarians fascinating, because that's how racism works in real life.  When all you see or hear about for so long are the bad examples, you start to wonder if that's the norm.  Nobody ever tells you batarians are decent or just like us, and when you run into one that's not a bad guy, everyone around you treats it like some sort of anomaly.

It's either a setup for a sucker punch or desensitization for something truly horrible that's about to happen.  Hell, maybe Arrival was that horrible thing we needed to be desensitized for, and ME3's the sucker punch.

That's a silly presumption on its face. If that were Bioware's intent, then why do they have plenty of humans partaking in all sorts of nefarious affairs? 

Edit: I agree with the very last statements of the post. It's definitely a set up for something to come.

Modifié par marshalleck, 08 septembre 2011 - 11:26 .

[armass]

ADLegend21 wrote...

armass wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Let's see Batarians:
Attack human colonies, including theone shepard grew up on in that background
Attacked a human colony that Shepard had to defend single handedly in that psych
Shepard destroyed a Batarian terrorist base in the ruthless background FOR attacking a human colony.
Batarians annexed an Asari colony
Batarians attacked the salarian colony of Mannovai
Batarians tried to ram an asteroid intothe capital of one of humanitiesmost prosperous colonies
They tried to Kill Mordin's assitant while he tried to CURE the plague.
They kidnapped Kenson and were going to torture her before Shepard save dher when she was doing investigations on the REAPERS.

I'd gladly sacrafice every batarian in the milky way because they have no sense of compassion, diplomacy, or willingness to coexist peacefully, plus their culture is based on slavery so they've got to go. I'm amazed that the Asari didn't send in the commandoes tow ipe them out after they annexed that colony.

Krogan act the same way also. They tried to conquer the whole galaxy once.

Under wreav, Hell yes. Under Urdnot wre however the Krogan have a certain cvivility about them. Wrex is making the species better so that they CAN interact on the galactic level. The Krogan that did act that way however , clan werlyoc, get wiped out in Mordin's mission so that's taken care of. Plus there are Krogan on the citadel, no batarians because they succeeded from council space and make slave grabs. Krogan's do not. They hire themselves out as Mercs and stay on tuchanka where Wrex is building a Krogan civilization by uniting the Clans. Hell by Me3 I think he succeeds because he'son the Salarian homeworld getting a fertile female thathas the genphage cure from Mordin.

So what your saying is Krogans are war-mongering, conquering, murdering brutes but all because of Wrex, you just can't help but love them...?

See how the other side of the coin makes even the most brutal race cuddly as a teddy bear for the player.

Modifié par armass, 08 septembre 2011 - 11:32 .

[pfhorlorn]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Oh come on, there has to be *someone* for people to hate. Hating others makes one feel superior, secure, and accomplished, all with surprisingly minimal effort. Hating a particular ethnic, religious, or cultural group makes one feel one is part of something larger, something of cosmic significance. The Batarians are perfectly made for such a purpose.

Justifying hatred, even of something fictitious, is depressing to see. We throw the word "hate" around just as liberally as we do the word "troll."

Modifié par koopaonfire, 08 septembre 2011 - 11:33 .

[armass]

koopaonfire wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Oh come on, there has to be *someone* for people to hate. Hating others makes one feel superior, secure, and accomplished, all with surprisingly minimal effort. Hating a particular ethnic, religious, or cultural group makes one feel one is part of something larger, something of cosmic significance. The Batarians are perfectly made for such a purpose.

Justifying hatred, even of something fictitious, is depressing to see. We throw the word "hate" around just as liberally as we do the word "troll."

And genocide. No matter how fictitious.

Modifié par armass, 08 septembre 2011 - 11:35 .

[AtreiyaN7]

The extra eyes and nostrils are just creepy, CREEPY! On a more serious note: they're belligerent and bellicose for the most part. They also have no compunctions about engaging in slavery. I don't have some sort of rabid hatred of Batarians, but I don't particularly like or trust them. You do see exceptions like that guy you can help during Mordin's recruiting mission. He wasn't so bad really.

[Kaiser Shepard]

armass wrote...

koopaonfire wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Oh come on, there has to be *someone* for people to hate. Hating others makes one feel superior, secure, and accomplished, all with surprisingly minimal effort. Hating a particular ethnic, religious, or cultural group makes one feel one is part of something larger, something of cosmic significance. The Batarians are perfectly made for such a purpose.

Justifying hatred, even of something fictitious, is depressing to see. We throw the word "hate" around just as liberally as we do the word "troll."

And genocide. No matter how fictitious.

Let's not forget "terrorism", which has basically become Godwood's Law of Cerberus-related discussions.

[Moonshadow_Dark]

armass wrote...

koopaonfire wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Oh come on, there has to be *someone* for people to hate. Hating others makes one feel superior, secure, and accomplished, all with surprisingly minimal effort. Hating a particular ethnic, religious, or cultural group makes one feel one is part of something larger, something of cosmic significance. The Batarians are perfectly made for such a purpose.

Justifying hatred, even of something fictitious, is depressing to see. We throw the word "hate" around just as liberally as we do the word "troll."

And genocide. No matter how fictitious.

If it's to stop 295 super smart living warships from harvesting civilizations like soccer moms at a Whole Foods, I think we can overlook it.

[Omega4RelayResident]

So much love... unlike the Batarians the Human race as a whole has fixed it's problems that would make us look savage. We realized slavery is wrong. We have courts to punish crimes. We have "individuals" that give us a bad name. Where as the majority of Batarians give some of their individuals bad names.

Okay why stop at the Batarians tough... why not fight for Vorcha rights then? They are a sentient species. We may not understand them all too well. In their culture violence is an acceptable form of communication (CODEX). What about the Yagh? Why keep them banished? Maybe they have the potential to change.

Legion brings up a good point in his Loyalty Mission. Treating other races as one would treat his own is considered racist. You need to treat other races the way they want to be treated.

Headbutt a Krogan... earns you respect.
Legion justifies that reprograming his own people is a sensible choice and not outrageous.
If you speak to a Hannar you sould refer to yourself impersonally unless you are close with them.

I would save the ones that would want to have a different life.... but damn those that continue their evil ways.... because that is all they expect in return.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

armass wrote...

koopaonfire wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Oh come on, there has to be *someone* for people to hate. Hating others makes one feel superior, secure, and accomplished, all with surprisingly minimal effort. Hating a particular ethnic, religious, or cultural group makes one feel one is part of something larger, something of cosmic significance. The Batarians are perfectly made for such a purpose.

Justifying hatred, even of something fictitious, is depressing to see. We throw the word "hate" around just as liberally as we do the word "troll."

And genocide. No matter how fictitious.

Let's not forget "terrorism", which has basically become Godwood's Law of Cerberus-related discussions.

Oh yeah apparently Batarians like to turn entire planets into glass parking lots according to Zaeed.

[111987]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

So much love... unlike the Batarians the Human race as a whole has fixed it's problems that would make us look savage. 

I stopped reading there.

[pfhorlorn]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

So much love... unlike the Batarians the Human race as a whole has fixed it's problems that would make us look savage. We realized slavery is wrong. We have courts to punish crimes. We have "individuals" that give us a bad name. Where as the majority of Batarians give some of their individuals bad names.

Um, but quite a few nations have, alarmingly so, totally ignored courts. My own nation abused (or is abusing) hearsay-"convicted" suspects outside of the courts in torture camps... in the 2000s.

Slavery still happens in some countries.

There isn't any true equality of the sexes and sexual orientations in a few countries considered "first world."

We elect people that give us bad names. From what little we can tell about the Hegemony, it doesn't look like batarians elect their leaders. It looks pretty much like a one-party totalitarian state with leaders nominated by other leaders.

iOnlySignIn wrote...

I'm not justifying anything. I'm merely saying that hate is a necessary social commodity, in any society, real or fictional. If anyone is promoting hatred towards the Batarians, it's BioWare. I'm afraid they created the Batarians with this specific purpose in mind.

Eek! No, no. I wasn't trying to say that you were justifying hatred. I was saying that in general, it's bad.

Modifié par koopaonfire, 08 septembre 2011 - 11:44 .

[ADLegend21]

armass wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

armass wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Let's see Batarians:
Attack human colonies, including theone shepard grew up on in that background
Attacked a human colony that Shepard had to defend single handedly in that psych
Shepard destroyed a Batarian terrorist base in the ruthless background FOR attacking a human colony.
Batarians annexed an Asari colony
Batarians attacked the salarian colony of Mannovai
Batarians tried to ram an asteroid intothe capital of one of humanitiesmost prosperous colonies
They tried to Kill Mordin's assitant while he tried to CURE the plague.
They kidnapped Kenson and were going to torture her before Shepard save dher when she was doing investigations on the REAPERS.

I'd gladly sacrafice every batarian in the milky way because they have no sense of compassion, diplomacy, or willingness to coexist peacefully, plus their culture is based on slavery so they've got to go. I'm amazed that the Asari didn't send in the commandoes tow ipe them out after they annexed that colony.

Krogan act the same way also. They tried to conquer the whole galaxy once.

Under wreav, Hell yes. Under Urdnot wre however the Krogan have a certain cvivility about them. Wrex is making the species better so that they CAN interact on the galactic level. The Krogan that did act that way however , clan werlyoc, get wiped out in Mordin's mission so that's taken care of. Plus there are Krogan on the citadel, no batarians because they succeeded from council space and make slave grabs. Krogan's do not. They hire themselves out as Mercs and stay on tuchanka where Wrex is building a Krogan civilization by uniting the Clans. Hell by Me3 I think he succeeds because he'son the Salarian homeworld getting a fertile female thathas the genphage cure from Mordin.

So what your saying is Krogans are war-mongering, conquering, murdering brutes but all because of Wrex, you just can't help but love them...?

See how the other side of the coin makes even the most brutal race cuddly as a teddy bear for the player.

You misunderstand me. With Urdnot Wreave as their leader the Krogan are what you said warmongering bloodthirsty brutes. The line EDI says after Mordin's mission is different. The werlyoc women and chidlren are murdered with their men killed under Wreav. Under Wrex they're adopted into clan Urdnot. Under Wrex's leadership they're LESS like how the Galaxy thinks they are and more civilized. It's all in the leadership.

batarians leadership is stupid and that trickles down to their citizen and the ones that leave their space to grab slaves of other species and attack the colonies of other species unprovoked and try to start Batarian rebellions.

[Mako Zalos]

Can we just agree to disagree......... no. Okay then I like the Batarians so sue me call me anti human, whatever. Honestly I would save them and I'm a war hero, I still don't understand how that means you're meant to hate them considering a human organized the entire battle, ie a mission from Mass Effect says that. I don't like them just because I'm a paragon so please don't start that. I can see why people would hate them but honestly in ME2 I think we were meant to see a different side of them, for one thing they were working with humans on multiple occasions. All I can say is wait until ME3 to see how bioware handles them. Also if there is a race we are meant to hate it's the Vorcha. Also in BDtS the one Batarian you can spare says that he had enough with Balak so even Batarians can have issues with members of their own race.

Modifié par Mako Zalos, 08 septembre 2011 - 11:46 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

Zakatak757 wrote...

If the only Batarians I ever met were slavers, pirates, and mercs, I would hate them too. Hard to see both sides of a species if the other side is... err... unseen.

The majority of Batarians outside of their homeworlds are a nuisance.

That.

[Omega4RelayResident]

111987 wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

So much love... unlike the Batarians the Human race as a whole has fixed it's problems that would make us look savage. 

I stopped reading there.

Then dont comment on it... Dont look in my direction... Dont think about me...

Mutual respect or you can go to hell... those are the choices.

And secondly.... it would be nice to assume I was going somewhere.... and I am placing my statement in the ME universe..... NOT TODAY AND NOW!

OH WAIT I FORGOT EVERYONE APPARENTLY THINKS THAT A-HOLES LIKE TIM AND CERBERUS REPRESENT THE WHOLE OF HUMANITY

[Therefore_I_Am]

Lets see... A race who's homeworld is still stuck in the third world with slavery and constant wars, rigid dictatorships for a governmental structure... and they spread propaganda on the human hate while supporting pirates who raid our colonies. Yea, not a people who is well known for their humility.
Besides, they seem like a very short-sighted bunch whenever confronted, even more short-sighted than the human race...

Modifié par Therefore_I_Am, 08 septembre 2011 - 11:53 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

111987 wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

So much love... unlike the Batarians the Human race as a whole has fixed it's problems that would make us look savage. 

I stopped reading there.

It's self-hating, traitorous comments like these that make Cerberus seem like the solution to everything.

[pfhorlorn]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

OH WAIT I FORGOT EVERYONE APPARENTLY THINKS THAT A-HOLES LIKE TIM AND CERBERUS REPRESENT THE
WHOLE OF HUMANITY

This comment that you posted is funny, because that's what everyone's doing in the case of batarians: blaming a group, saying it represents the whole race. Even the Alliance doesn't represent all humans; there are colonists who hate the Alliance and want to be left the fudge alone.

Modifié par koopaonfire, 08 septembre 2011 - 11:53 .

[armass]

ADLegend21 wrote...

armass wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

armass wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Let's see Batarians:
Attack human colonies, including theone shepard grew up on in that background
Attacked a human colony that Shepard had to defend single handedly in that psych
Shepard destroyed a Batarian terrorist base in the ruthless background FOR attacking a human colony.
Batarians annexed an Asari colony
Batarians attacked the salarian colony of Mannovai
Batarians tried to ram an asteroid intothe capital of one of humanitiesmost prosperous colonies
They tried to Kill Mordin's assitant while he tried to CURE the plague.
They kidnapped Kenson and were going to torture her before Shepard save dher when she was doing investigations on the REAPERS.

I'd gladly sacrafice every batarian in the milky way because they have no sense of compassion, diplomacy, or willingness to coexist peacefully, plus their culture is based on slavery so they've got to go. I'm amazed that the Asari didn't send in the commandoes tow ipe them out after they annexed that colony.

Krogan act the same way also. They tried to conquer the whole galaxy once.

Under wreav, Hell yes. Under Urdnot wre however the Krogan have a certain cvivility about them. Wrex is making the species better so that they CAN interact on the galactic level. The Krogan that did act that way however , clan werlyoc, get wiped out in Mordin's mission so that's taken care of. Plus there are Krogan on the citadel, no batarians because they succeeded from council space and make slave grabs. Krogan's do not. They hire themselves out as Mercs and stay on tuchanka where Wrex is building a Krogan civilization by uniting the Clans. Hell by Me3 I think he succeeds because he'son the Salarian homeworld getting a fertile female thathas the genphage cure from Mordin.

So what your saying is Krogans are war-mongering, conquering, murdering brutes but all because of Wrex, you just can't help but love them...?

See how the other side of the coin makes even the most brutal race cuddly as a teddy bear for the player.

You misunderstand me. With Urdnot Wreave as their leader the Krogan are what you said warmongering bloodthirsty brutes. The line EDI says after Mordin's mission is different. The werlyoc women and chidlren are murdered with their men killed under Wreav. Under Wrex they're adopted into clan Urdnot. Under Wrex's leadership they're LESS like how the Galaxy thinks they are and more civilized. It's all in the leadership.

batarians leadership is stupid and that trickles down to their citizen and the ones that leave their space to grab slaves of other species and attack the colonies of other species unprovoked and try to start Batarian rebellions.

Batarians might have their freedom fighters, you just don't know. They could have many such people in their ranks, future "Washingtons" and "Gandhis", the changers. Maybe the reapers attack even provides opportunity for the hegemony to fall and something new and better to be consturcted in it's stead. Just give them that chance.

Modifié par armass, 08 septembre 2011 - 11:58 .

[Golden Owl]

Arkitekt wrote...

What you are obviously forgetting is that it isn't the audience who "hates" batarians, it's the writers themselves who write a species where every single one batarian we meet is either a scoundrel or an ****. With this kind of statistics, blaming the audience is pretty damning by you.

Not every single Batarian....the sick Batarian on Omega, even those holding Daniel, their fear is obvious, their fighting for their lives....Selkie kind of fits loosely here also, people go on about Jentha being friendlyish (b/c she is an attractive human female)....but Selkie is in fact the most sublime though he is a Merc...Plus if you have read the books, there are many more characters there of different calibers....I don't feel the Batarians were written to be hated, they were written like every other species as exhibits of aspects of ourselves....and as a direct challenge to humans. The Batarian government sucks with their slavery doctrine, etc...But as OP noted, this doesn't necessarily represent all the citizens.