236 réponses à ce sujet

[dirk5027]

Isabella is delightful and makes the game for me, a woman can't have strong sense of self and be secure in their sexuality without being a **** or a skank, that's a load of bunk. She is also in my opinion anyway the only character that actually changes and shows growth as a person.
If paired with Merrill you learn a lot more about her, making her even more endearing
As a gay man myself, i was actually surprised my only interest for romance has been Isabella
(Throw in Freudian comments here)

[The Xand]

dirk5027 wrote...

Isabella is delightful and makes the game for me, a woman can't have strong sense of self and be secure in their sexuality without being a **** or a skank, that's a load of bunk. She is also in my opinion anyway the only character that actually changes and shows growth as a person.
If paired with Merrill you learn a lot more about her, making her even more endearing
As a gay man myself, i was actually surprised my only interest for romance has been Isabella
(Throw in Freudian comments here)

Just saying, the definition of a slag is "a woman who shags around without any thought of the consequences" and Isabella is the definition of that. She also ties a lot of her character to the fact that she's shagged a lot of people too, unlike Zevran who while flirtatious and raised in a brothel is fairly subtle about everything. Now, I've no problem with girls that put out, because they always do, but it's nice when a girl has a lil more substance to her personality than "haha I've been boned by lots of guys". And before anyone mentions it, yes, Isabella does have hidden depths but the bulk of her personality is sleeping with dudes and making jokes about that fact. Oh, and it strikes me that the reason that she has intimacy issues is because when you **** someone then pretend it wasn't a big deal does admittedly ****** a lot of people off.

Modifié par The Xand, 13 septembre 2011 - 10:54 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Is there a great difference between Zevran and Isabela with respect to their views and actions when it comes to sex (with either gender)?

I don't think so. But Isabela is apparently a '****' while Zevran is just charming?

It's disturbing to see the amount of gender double standards that still exist in people's minds today, and (mostly) young people here too...

I don't dislike Isabella, but I found her representation rather shallow, most of her character representation being about her sexual appetites. I wouldn't have minded at all had they expanded upon other aspects of her character more to round her out, to make her more than a just a shallow sex fiend. Which I found a biot double standard on the writers part. They fleshed Zevran out to be more than a sex fiend, and I wished they had done the same for Isabella. The writers just focused too much on making her a horn-dog, and not enough focus was made on the other aspects of her character. Which is why I think most people just write her off as a ****. Which is a shame, she had alot more potential, I think.

[dirk5027]

not gonna defend her character as I hate fenris, others love him, but Isabella is all talk, one companion says "so you have slept with a lot of people??" Issy replies "not as many as some would think"
She plays tough guy, but actually has many insecurities
When she says "nice to have someone on my side for once" you actually see the true person coming out
Anders whined about mages and templars, Fenris b**ched about magic basically the whole game, it was just nice to see Isabella slowly change over time

[Satyricon331]

Boiny Bunny wrote...
Is there a great difference between Zevran and Isabela with respect to their views and actions when it comes to sex (with either gender)?

I don't think so. But Isabela is apparently a '****' while Zevran is just charming?

It's disturbing to see the amount of gender double standards that still exist in people's minds today, and (mostly) young people here too...

Yes, I agree with you, esper, and whykikyouwhy.  It's amazing that such prejudiced, ignorant people continue posting their drivel even after having their mindlessness pointed out to them.

[The Xand]

What's amazing is that people can think that someone that bases her entire personality on the amount of people she's slept with isn't a slag :/

Zevran is charming because every second joke he cracks isn't a sex joke and he talks about more than just sex and when he does talk about sex it's subtly done.

Oh, and while we're talking about double standards any male character that consistently bragged about how many chicks he'd banged and how he didn't give a damn about emotional attachments would be labelled a shallow chauvinistic copulation obsessed sexist who only saw women as objects despite any underlying insecurities he may or may not have yet somehow that's okay from Isabella just because she's female? Talk about being prejudiced and ignorant :/ And that's why radical feminism fails as a social theory, because it's too imbalanced and assumes everything is a slight against women.

Modifié par The Xand, 13 septembre 2011 - 12:47 .

[whykikyouwhy]

@The Xand- Once again, I find a post by you in which you are making broad generalizations.

We've gone off track from the topic - but to address Isabela, her "entire" personality is not based on her sex life. That's the point others have been making - that there are layers to her personality. I suppose then it would be fine for me to throw around insults based on my first impressions of people - real or otherwise.

I've heard just as many negative comments about Zevran for his enjoyment of sex. Other than him, is there any male character in DA that brags about his conquests? I can't think of one, which makes your closing point fall short.

If you want to talk about "radical" ideas and theories, I already know that you subscribe to several of your own, as the previous pages in this thread are testament to. You've been insulting to several posters which doesn't really endear you as someone to engage in discourse with. So while this is not my thread, I would like to at least offer some advice in that perhaps you should stay on topic and avoid the slamming and shaming if you truly want to have a discussion.

[The Xand]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@The Xand- Once again, I find a post by you in which you are making broad generalizations.

We've gone off track from the topic - but to address Isabela, her "entire" personality is not based on her sex life. That's the point others have been making - that there are layers to her personality. I suppose then it would be fine for me to throw around insults based on my first impressions of people - real or otherwise.

It doesn't matter what underlying trust/intimacy/friendship issues she has, all she does is crack sex jokes and talk about how many guys she's slept with. Sure, you can have one or two conversations with her that shows she has a little more depth than that but it doesn't change the way she acts and anyone acting that way in real life would be unbearable regardless of gender.

whykikyouwhy wrote...I've heard just as many negative comments about Zevran for his enjoyment of sex. Other than him, is there any male character in DA that brags about his conquests? I can't think of one, which makes your closing point fall short.

That's exactly my point, there aren't any male characters like that because it's a crass and crude character type that people would hate and it's why Isabella gets on everyone's ******, yet people are trying to convince us that we're just being sexist for disliking her.

whykikyouwhy wrote...If you want to talk about "radical" ideas and theories, I already know that you subscribe to several of your own, as the previous pages in this thread are testament to. You've been insulting to several posters which doesn't really endear you as someone to engage in discourse with. So while this is not my thread, I would like to at least offer some advice in that perhaps you should stay on topic and avoid the slamming and shaming if you truly want to have a discussion.

I don't believe I have been insulting to anyone actually, it's hardly my fault if people get offended at having their beliefs questioned. Do we live in a fascist dictatorship where intelligent discourse is discouraged, and nobody is allowed to question anything?

In regards to this thread pretty much everything that can be said about it has been said. Ie, yes, people do embark upon gay relationships with companions because it adds variety.

Modifié par The Xand, 13 septembre 2011 - 01:21 .

[Xilizhra]

What's amazing is that people can think that someone that bases her entire personality on the amount of people she's slept with isn't a slag :/

Your attempt to accuse other people of not following a dictionary definition of an idiotic sexist term is... well, really lame.
Though I don't think you're being deliberately sexist, just that you happen to be slipping into sexist terms of discourse. Which may be because there are so many female-specific words for this as compared to male-specific or neutral ones.

That's exactly my point, there aren't any male characters like that because it's a crass and crude character type that people would hate and it's why Isabella gets on everyone's ******, yet people are trying to convince us that we're just being sexist for disliking her.

Well, there's Zevran's DA2 cameo.

My only real irritation with Isabela is that almost all of her sex talk involves men. While I don't think it makes her worse, it does make me worry that romancing her as a female Hawke would leave several needs unfulfilled unless the relationship was open, which is one reason I always go for Merrill.

[R0vena]

Answering OP question: I did play a gay Hawke. He had a great romance with Fenris. I plan gay rivalmance with Anders next. I don't care much for lesbian romances here, but probably because I find male LI in DA 2 more interesting, not any other reason.

ps I do usually play f+m romance (my canons are fHawke + Fenris as in DAO was fWarden + Alistair despite one of mWardens going for Zevran once), but why not something different for a change? Roleplaying, anyone? 

Modifié par R0vena, 13 septembre 2011 - 01:57 .

[The Xand]

R0vena wrote...

Answering OP question: I did play a gay Hawke. He had a great romance with Fenris. I plan gay rivalmance with Anders next. I don't care much for lesbian romances here, but probably because I find male LI in DA 2 more interesting, not any other reason.

Fenris and Anders do seem more interesting to gaymance than Merril and Isabella tbh. Isabella would sleep with anyone, and Merrill's an idiot and easily led (but endearing and funny) whereas Anders and Fenris are a little trickier and have more depth.

[RagingCyclone]

Xilizhra wrote...
*snip*

My only real irritation with Isabela is that almost all of her sex talk involves men. While I don't think it makes her worse, it does make me worry that romancing her as a female Hawke would leave several needs unfulfilled unless the relationship was open, which is one reason I always go for Merrill.

This here is the main reason I am not the keenest on all LI's being bi. Like you say it kind of muddles her character a little when most (not all because she does talk about sleeping with women with Bethany) leans one direction. I prefer a more balanced mix in the LI's, one hetro, two bi, and one gay.  I think that kind of mix would provide a good dynamic in the companions. And although I don't think it would happen, but a system like KOTOR: TSL had where the two companions that were not bi could change based on the gender of the pc. In that game a male had the Handmaiden as a companion and a female had the Disciple. So, for example, if the DA3 pc was male, you would have a female hetro companion and a male gay companion, then for female pc's a male hetro companion and female gay companion. I doubt it would happen, but it would be a nice thing to have if possible.

Modifié par RagingCyclone, 13 septembre 2011 - 02:07 .

[R0vena]

Actually, I don't see much difference in Fenris romance. Anders romance on the other hand has more information of his past if you play male.
I romanced Merril and Isabela as a male once just to see their additional dialog. I can't imagine Isabela with fHawke in the love scene... it is just doesn't look the same as with male.

ps This was regaring post of The Xand.

Modifié par R0vena, 13 septembre 2011 - 02:08 .

[Yuqi]

esper wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Read my other post...........

And your stereotype of women is pretty insulting. <_<

It's incredibly easy to get skewed statistics like that given the mass popularity of the Wii and online Facebook games like Farmville and the like so now more people are likely to be like "Yes, I'm a gamer" than before, not to mention females buying consoles are likely to have only been doing it for their sons and boyfriends. Let's be honest though, girls aren't about to sit down and play any of the Total War games, or Europa Universalis, Fallout, Gothic 3 and the like, more like MarioKart and WiiFit and the Sims. Dragon Age I suppose might be more popular with girls than I had given credit for though because of the romances.

As a female who has owned a oldgameboy, a gameboy gba, a gameboy advance, a ds, a ds3, a psp, a playstation1, a playstation 2, a playstation 3, a wii and an x-box I find that insulting. All those console has served to my own pleasure and certainly not my non-existing son or my little brother who could buy his own machines because he didn't get mine.
I have played rpg pretty much since Golden Sun (Yes I started in jrpg ). I admit to finding shooters boring, but I used to enjoy a good strategy game. I am in it for the good story - so shooters is normally boring. I have played several survival games...
I don't like Mariokarts... and all the wii-fit games makes me gag. Escpacially because the poprluarity of the 'family' wii games robbed my from my project zero /fatal frame 4. I loved that series... and I was so very sad that I don't understand Japanesse so I could just buy the game and enjoy.

I like bioware because of the characters and the universe. Mass Effect/Dragon age and Jade empire all felt like rich world with character I loved. Bioware is my faverorite rpg. My favoerite game is still Theresia though, because I just loved the creepy background and the slowly getting the memories back.  

In other words. I am sorry, but I find your sterotype slightly insulting and I would find it even more insulting if bioware cut things because someone is scared to

^This
It's quite the opposite to the sterotype, in my area. Go to a convention,and 90% of gaming fans are female. So sorry but times they are a changing...Pssh farmville is crap, you want farming Harvest Moon SNES.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

R0vena wrote...

Answering OP question: I did play a gay Hawke. He had a great romance with Fenris. I plan gay rivalmance with Anders next. I don't care much for lesbian romances here, but probably because I find male LI in DA 2 more interesting, not any other reason.

It's actually the same for me, and was similar in Origins. I just never cared for the female LI's available to female characters. Leliana was too creepy and excessively girly for my liking in Origins, so I stuck with f/m romances. Similar in DA2, though i was originally really interested in romancing Isabella as a female, since I liked her in Origins, characterwise. Since I play mostly female characters, though, I don't really explore gaymances much.

[Xilizhra]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
*snip*

My only real irritation with Isabela is that almost all of her sex talk involves men. While I don't think it makes her worse, it does make me worry that romancing her as a female Hawke would leave several needs unfulfilled unless the relationship was open, which is one reason I always go for Merrill.

This here is the main reason I am not the keenest on all LI's being bi. Like you say it kind of muddles her character a little when most (not all because she does talk about sleeping with women with Bethany) leans one direction. I prefer a more balanced mix in the LI's, one hetro, two bi, and one gay.  I think that kind of mix would provide a good dynamic in the companions. And although I don't think it would happen, but a system like KOTOR: TSL had where the two companions that were not bi could change based on the gender of the pc. In that game a male had the Handmaiden as a companion and a female had the Disciple. So, for example, if the DA3 pc was male, you would have a female hetro companion and a male gay companion, then for female pc's a male hetro companion and female gay companion. I doubt it would happen, but it would be a nice thing to have if possible.

Wait, what? That wasn't really what I meant... it's a personal foible of mine. Plenty of people like doing the f/f Isabela romance; I'm not one to deny them that (the only romance I'd want to deny people is Merrill's rivalmance). I'm still for all LIs being bi.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xilizhra wrote...

Wait, what? That wasn't really what I meant... it's a personal foible of mine. Plenty of people like doing the f/f Isabela romance; I'm not one to deny them that (the only romance I'd want to deny people is Merrill's rivalmance). I'm still for all LIs being bi.

Why? What's wrong with merril's rivalmance?

[Xilizhra]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Wait, what? That wasn't really what I meant... it's a personal foible of mine. Plenty of people like doing the f/f Isabela romance; I'm not one to deny them that (the only romance I'd want to deny people is Merrill's rivalmance). I'm still for all LIs being bi.

Why? What's wrong with merril's rivalmance?

I find it egregiously manipulative, emotionally abusive, and bloody creepy. I feel the same way about the Anders rivalmance, though to a somewhat lesser extent because I don't feel as protective of him.

[The Xand]

R0vena wrote...

Actually, I don't see much difference in Fenris romance. Anders romance on the other hand has more information of his past if you play male.
I romanced Merril and Isabela as a male once just to see their additional dialog. I can't imagine Isabela with fHawke in the love scene... it is just doesn't look the same as with male.

ps This was regaring post of The Xand.

Playing a male Hawke I friendmanced Merril, wasn't terribly fulfilling tbh, all that happened was she got a new white outfit and became a little more confident. I imagine the same applies for a femHawke.

Xilizhra wrote...
I find it egregiously manipulative,
emotionally abusive, and bloody creepy. I feel the same way about the
Anders rivalmance, though to a somewhat lesser extent because I don't
feel as protective of him.

You couldn't have expected making someone hate you and then bullying them into a relationship to end well did you

Modifié par The Xand, 13 septembre 2011 - 02:29 .

[ejoslin]

Yuqi wrote...

esper wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Read my other post...........

And your stereotype of women is pretty insulting. <_<

It's incredibly easy to get skewed statistics like that given the mass popularity of the Wii and online Facebook games like Farmville and the like so now more people are likely to be like "Yes, I'm a gamer" than before, not to mention females buying consoles are likely to have only been doing it for their sons and boyfriends. Let's be honest though, girls aren't about to sit down and play any of the Total War games, or Europa Universalis, Fallout, Gothic 3 and the like, more like MarioKart and WiiFit and the Sims. Dragon Age I suppose might be more popular with girls than I had given credit for though because of the romances.

As a female who has owned a oldgameboy, a gameboy gba, a gameboy advance, a ds, a ds3, a psp, a playstation1, a playstation 2, a playstation 3, a wii and an x-box I find that insulting. All those console has served to my own pleasure and certainly not my non-existing son or my little brother who could buy his own machines because he didn't get mine.
I have played rpg pretty much since Golden Sun (Yes I started in jrpg ). I admit to finding shooters boring, but I used to enjoy a good strategy game. I am in it for the good story - so shooters is normally boring. I have played several survival games...
I don't like Mariokarts... and all the wii-fit games makes me gag. Escpacially because the poprluarity of the 'family' wii games robbed my from my project zero /fatal frame 4. I loved that series... and I was so very sad that I don't understand Japanesse so I could just buy the game and enjoy.

I like bioware because of the characters and the universe. Mass Effect/Dragon age and Jade empire all felt like rich world with character I loved. Bioware is my faverorite rpg. My favoerite game is still Theresia though, because I just loved the creepy background and the slowly getting the memories back.  

In other words. I am sorry, but I find your sterotype slightly insulting and I would find it even more insulting if bioware cut things because someone is scared to

^This
It's quite the opposite to the sterotype, in my area. Go to a convention,and 90% of gaming fans are female. So sorry but times they are a changing...Pssh farmville is crap, you want farming Harvest Moon SNES.

I had to laugh at his comment.  It reminded me of thte days where I played MMOs.  When Ventrillo started becoming popular, many of the guys who played were stunned that these players who were claiming to be female actually were, well, female.

Women gamers who actually buy and play video games are actually far larger than devs care to acknowledge.  The reason why console games geared towards girls in the 90s didn't do well is that they were absolute crap based on what devs thought girls should like, and not what they actually did like.

I love Fallout, I have been playing cRPGs since Bane of the Cosmic Forge.  I also like Sims3, but there are not only plenty of men who play that as well, it is also EA's best selling series of all time, that says something about the female market also buying games.  Oh, and before I had a family, I still had video game consoles and computers.  

I wish people would actually try to understand the female market instead of just making broad assumptions based on nothing except personal bias.

Edit: To be on topic, I played DAO once as a male character, fully intending to do Morrigan's romance.  Between her and Leliana, I was so confused, Aedan ended up with Zevran.  When I asked my husband if women really were that confusing in relationships, he just laughed and said, "Yes.  But we love you anyway!"

Modifié par ejoslin, 13 septembre 2011 - 02:34 .

[RagingCyclone]

@Xilizhra-I wasn't exactly saying you were, and yes there are those that like it. But you are also not the first to say it seemed strange because of her banter. I am just saying that character-wise she was not written correctly, if that makes sense, because some feel the same as you expressed. Zevran was probably the best written bi character in the series. He said he was, you knew he was, and he still was comfortably romanced by both genders. But to make all companions bi I think you have the possibility of losing aspects of a character's arc. Either write the character one way or the other or expressly bi, imho I think it makes for richer, deeper, and more believable characters than the somewhat generic ones we have in DA2. It's why at some of the conventions like ComicCon when asking the crowd to applaud their favorite characters, many Origins companions overshadowed the DA2 ones.

Modifié par RagingCyclone, 13 septembre 2011 - 02:31 .

[R0vena]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

R0vena wrote...

Answering OP question: I did play a gay Hawke. He had a great romance with Fenris. I plan gay rivalmance with Anders next. I don't care much for lesbian romances here, but probably because I find male LI in DA 2 more interesting, not any other reason.

It's actually the same for me, and was similar in Origins. I just never cared for the female LI's available to female characters. Leliana was too creepy and excessively girly for my liking in Origins, so I stuck with f/m romances. Similar in DA2, though i was originally really interested in romancing Isabella as a female, since I liked her in Origins, characterwise. Since I play mostly female characters, though, I don't really explore gaymances much.

I play gay romances only if I like the game  and want to replay it from slightly different angle. Usually I just go fHero+whoever M is her romance. BG is an exeption, romances for mHero are superior there (for me, at least).

Modifié par R0vena, 13 septembre 2011 - 02:32 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xilizhra wrote...


I find it egregiously manipulative, emotionally abusive, and bloody creepy. I feel the same way about the Anders rivalmance, though to a somewhat lesser extent because I don't feel as protective of him.

Yeah, I suppose it would be. I've never done it, only friended/non-romanced her, and am planning on exploring the rivalry path next time. I don't know what specifically is involved in rivaling her, but I imagine it involves in part, being a douche to her. Which, given her vulnerable, naieve personality, would probablably be pretty creepy as far as romance goes. Haven't gone Anders rivalry, but he doesn't have the same sort of vulnerability that merril seems to.

[Xilizhra]

RagingCyclone wrote...

@Xilizhra-I wasn't exactly saying you were, and yes there are those that like it. But you are also not the first to say it seemed strange because of her banter. I am just saying that character-wise she was not written correctly, if that makes sense, because some feel the same as you expressed. Zevran was probably the best written bi character in the series. He said he was, you knew he was, and he still was comfortably romanced by both genders. But to make all companions bi I think you have the possibility of losing aspects of a character's arc. Either write the character one way or the other or expressly bi, imho I think it makes for richer, deeper, and more believable characters than the somewhat generic ones we have in DA2. It's why at some of the conventions like ComicCon when asking the crowd to applaud their favorite characters, many Origins companions overshadowed the DA2 ones.

Which is odd because I found DA2 compansions generally more interesting and easier to relate to than Origins ones... anyway, there may have been a dialogue hiccup there. But it doesn't make the system itself bad.

[The Xand]

Xilizhra wrote...
Which is odd because I found DA2 compansions generally more interesting and easier to relate to than Origins ones... anyway, there may have been a dialogue hiccup there. But it doesn't make the system itself bad.

Admit it. You fancied Varric.