141 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

inb4 Soviet Russia

So, you know how most major decisions in the game are split into paragon and renegade?  And you know how you have to accumulate points in one or the other in order to pass specific persuasion checks?

Well, duh.  You play Mass Effect, don't you?

Anyway, a lot of people complain that it's silly to divide everything into two categories, even sillier to give you points for choosing those categories, and downright absurd to have to keep getting points in order to select certain conversation options.  And you know what?  It kind of is.  But there are design limitations in videogames such as these, and that sort of thing is ultimately subjective anyway.

However, that's not the point.  The point is that this system has created a special sort of beast that may or may not have been intentional.  This beast is one that gets in your head and messes with you, adding a psychological challenge that, once you realize it's there, is just as fun as the rest of the game.

See, the system is classic positive reinforcement.  Do this, and get rewarded.  Punch that guy, and get badass points.  Even better, these points can be used to bypass certain obstacles that would normally give you a headache, such as having to pick sides in an argument or grit your teeth through a boss fight.  In fact, since several points in the game virtually require you have a certain amount, they're more like currency than a stat boost.

That's right.  You are being paid to behave in a certain way.

So after testing the waters a little bit, most people pick a side they feel more comfortable with and stick with it.  People who would rather be calm, kind, and principled go paragon, and people who would rather be practical, badass, and less trusting go renegade.  Easy enough.

But as you play more and more to one side in order to get more and more "money," you may start to notice that the paragon/renegade's thought patterns are different from yours.  You may come across a decision you disagree with, or perhaps there's a line of dialogue that just seems stupid.

At this point, you have a choice: either sacrifice your next "paycheck" to do what feels right, or grit your teeth, go for your usual flavor, and snatch up the points you know you'll probably need later.  However, because you've been choosing similar responses over and over, you've been conditioning yourself into thinking that a certain behavior is "correct."  Because your moral alignment of choice has been rewarding you so far, part of you starts to feel like the other side is inherently less desirable.

"Wait a sec," you ask yourself, "if I go paragon/renegade on this, does that mean I'm being a sissy/douchebag?"

The game, by offering you a reward for picking a side, has suckered you into thinking in black-and-white terms.  Additional reinforcement is gained by watching your Shepard act out your decisions, and suddenly you find yourself inwardly (or outwardly if you're a BSN regular) justifying your side while bashing the other.

In a game like Mass Effect, where you are constantly being reminded by various characters and events not to fall into a single way of thinking or give into snap judgments or generalizations, you are being rewarded for doing just that.

Whether intentional or not, I think that's absolutely brilliant.  It's the ultimate sucker punch and a great way to sneak a psychological lesson into a videogame.

(lol playin a vidya gaem maed me smarturr)

[Biotic Sage]

Yeah, this sort of meta-gaming that the paragon/renegade system inevitably leads to has kind of annoyed me in the Mass Effect games. I like the system in DA2 (one of the few things I did like about it) where your responses indicated intent, not where they fell on the morality scale.

And forcing you to choose all paragon or all renegade options in order to get a high enough persuasion rating is just awful.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 09 septembre 2011 - 01:32 .

[sbvera13]

I figured this out by my second playthrough, and started using the save editor to max both values before finishing the intro sequence.  After all, as the saying goes, if it's broke, hack the game files.

Modifié par sbvera13, 09 septembre 2011 - 01:34 .

[ThePwener]

What Cheez is saying is very accurate. Most people have been conditioned by it so much that they will probably play the whole game in only one said of the bar (Fable ).

It has never affected me though. My mind is unbreakable. I play like I wanna play as, the hell with blue/red points, Im my own person, no system/game will ever dictate how I carry myself.

Rebel to the end!

[gosimmons]

So it's not "What would I do in this situation?" It's "which choice gives me more Paragon/Renegade."

It's something I hope they've changed for 3.

[Biotic Sage]

ThePwener wrote...

What Cheez is saying is very accurate. Most people have been conditioned by it so much that they will probably play the whole game in only one said of the bar (Fable ).

It has never affected me though. My mind is unbreakable. I play like I wanna play as, the hell with blue/red points, Im my own person, no system/game will ever dictate how I carry myself.

Rebel to the end!

But sometimes how I want to play is impossible because if I don't have a high enough persuasion skill, I can't choose the dialogue I want!

[Jafroboy]

Thats why I use save game editor to give me all the points I need at the beginning, then just do what I want. *smiley*

(Not that I like instantly being able to persuade anyone to do anything, with no effort for it. But its better than the alternative.)

[Biotic Sage]

Jafroboy wrote...

Thats why I use save game editor to give me all the points I need at the beginning, then just do what I want. *smiley*

(Not that I like instantly being able to persuade anyone to do anything, with no effort for it. But its better than the alternative.)

I play on XBox

[RocketManSR2]

Hmmmmm. Good topic, TC. I do feel limited and locked in by having to go paragon or renegade at times. I feel like if I don't pass all checks, someone will die either later in 2 or later in 3. This topic is a breath of fresh air. I won't bash one style over the other, I'm running both. In the middle of a renegon playthrough atm.

- I'll do a full renegade later. To get by the R/P meter issue, all we can do it do at least 4 playthroughs. 2 pure, 2 mixed. Granted, this is coming from a huge fan that thinks there is nothing wrong with playing through the same game for the umpteenth time.

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 09 septembre 2011 - 01:43 .

[sbvera13]

...But its better than the alternative...

an apt description of many of ME2's game mechanics.

[Kaiser Shepard]

I play mixed and never had any problems with choosing the persuasion/intimidate options I wanted, except for Morinth's (whom I would've killed anyway).

[AdmiralCheez]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Yeah, this sort of meta-gaming that the paragon/renegade system inevitably leads to has kind of annoyed me in the Mass Effect games. I like the system in DA2 (one of the few things I did like about it) where your responses indicated intent, not where they fell on the morality scale.

And forcing you to choose all paragon or all renegade options in order to get a high enough persuasion rating is just awful.

I think you missed the point a little.  I was talking about how the game uses the paragon/renegade system to subvert your own values and tricks you into thinking an artificial substitute is correct.

You know how people talk about the devil and angel on your shoulders?  It'd be like if they each gave you a cookie for doing what they told you.

Angel: Now go tell Mordin what a dirtbag he is for killing krogan babies.

You: But he's not a dirtbag--

Angel: DO YOU WANT THIS COOKIE OR NOT!?

You: OKAY MORDIN YOU'RE A DIRTBAG FOR KILLING KROGAN BABIES NOW COOKIE PLZ?!

*time passes*

You: Wow, there's no way I'd tell Mordin he's a babykiller just for a cookie.  Maybe... maybe he is a babykiller, but I don't want to admit it because he's my friend...

(SCIENCE!)

[ThePwener]

Biotic Sage wrote...

I play on XBox

ENJOY

[Davie McG]

I've been pondering this very aspect of the game recently.

I usually enjoy delving into moral shades of grey, and having to make morally ambiguous decisions in games. However this system almost takes the choice away from you. You make the transition of " well that's unreasonable, or out of order, why did my Shepard do that?" to "Of course the Genophage was abhorrent Mordin, Paragon Shep disapproves * vehemently hit paragon option*" or "Damn right Mordin those Krogen are Daleks in disguise kill them all *righteously hit renegade respon*" you go from having your own view to being slowly pulled to one side or the other more and more with each play through.

I went from being mostly neutral with a bit of both in ME1 to being paragon (except when faced with the asari that killed the volus, pull a gun on Shepard and you get whats coming to you.) in ME2.

If this system was one where there was no right and wrong, just what you decide to do, it would make playing through this game entirely different. But I agree with you Cheez, whether intentional or not it's a little brilliant in how it subtly changes your views.

[RocketManSR2]

ThePwener wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

I play on XBox

ENJOY

Oh, hell no. It'd be faster to do 4 playthroughs, lol.

[Jafroboy]

I believe the save game editor works on xbox aswel

[ThePwener]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

I play on XBox

ENJOY

Oh, hell no. It'd be faster to do 4 playthroughs, lol.

It's only six hours......

[sbvera13]

Jafroboy wrote...

I believe the save game editor works on xbox aswel

It does. Ruddy thing keeps coming up with the xbox format as default and confusing me when it says no valid files...

[Biotic Sage]

Jafroboy wrote...

I believe the save game editor works on xbox aswel

Hmm I will have to look into this then.  I'm not a fan of modding/altering the game as it is though.  In my opinion, this is the developer's responsibility.

Plus, all 9 of my playthroughs are already set to go for ME3, I don't plan on doing another one.  I know ME2 inside and out and I am extremely close to burnout, so I want to avoid it for at least a few years.  Same thing happened with the LOTR trilogy.  I had to avoid them for 3 years in order to keep them fresh.

[Kusy]

The question is not when. It's where.
The game plays you IN SOVIET RUSSIA!

Modifié par Mr.Kusy, 09 septembre 2011 - 01:58 .

[Monochrome Wench]

The system would be a lot better if the paragon and renegade options weren't opposed virtually all the time. With the conversation options opposed you need to always choose one else you might screw things up later being unable to make a persuade check. There should be a significantly more instances where you have only one of paragon and renegade options against a neutral option. That way you can be be a full paragon or a full renegade but still choose some of the opposite options without fear of penalty if you want. You know, so you can actually role play somewhat.

[Davie McG]

Monochrome Wench wrote...

The system would be a lot better if the paragon and renegade options weren't opposed virtually all the time. With the conversation options opposed you need to always choose one else you might screw things up later being unable to make a persuade check. There should be a significantly more instances where you have only one of paragon and renegade options against a neutral option. That way you can be be a full paragon or a full renegade but still choose some of the opposite options without fear of penalty if you want. You know, so you can actually role play somewhat.

The first Mass Effect was better for this.

[AdmiralCheez]

Monochrome Wench wrote...

The system would be a lot better if the paragon and renegade options weren't opposed virtually all the time. With the conversation options opposed you need to always choose one else you might screw things up later being unable to make a persuade check. There should be a significantly more instances where you have only one of paragon and renegade options against a neutral option. That way you can be be a full paragon or a full renegade but still choose some of the opposite options without fear of penalty if you want. You know, so you can actually role play somewhat.

This isn't about improving the system, but the psychological effects on the player of said system.

[Niddy']

Soviet Russia

[RAF1940]

sbvera13 wrote...

I figured this out by my second playthrough, and started using the save editor to max both values before finishing the intro sequence.  After all, as the saying goes, if it's broke, hack the game files.

Pretty much.