141 réponses à ce sujet

[Biotic Sage]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

This isn't about improving the system, but the psychological effects on the player of said system.

I think what you have observed about the psychological effects automatically makes it about improving the system.  I don't think anybody who is interested in role playing likes these psychological effects.

At least, that is what this thread is going to turn into.  Suggestions for improvement and hate/love of the current system.  Just sayin.  You can't really blame people.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 09 septembre 2011 - 02:06 .

[Davie McG]

I find it odd how it works more in ME2 than it did in the first game, would have to play again to see cause it must be something. This topic has me seriously considering another play through from ME1 through ME2, damn my obsessive curiosity.

Edit: on the topic of improving the system I think changing it to a perhaps better one would be removing a defining aspect of the series and would thus feel quite a bit less like mass effect, if that makes any sense, didn't really word that thought very well but it is late and I am sobbering up.

Modifié par Davie McG, 09 septembre 2011 - 02:09 .

[sbvera13]

ME1 system: Sacrifice combat ability for the ability to persuade people and get what you want.
Renegade: Get what you want by being a jerk.
Paragon: Get what you want by being nice.

ME2 system: Sacrifice roleplaying and believability for umm... streamlining. Yeah, thats it.
Renegade: Beware the dark side, forever will it domin... err um I mean go baby go, you bad mutha you. I mean, whos gonna say no to someone with cybernetic sith-lord freaky eyes?
Paragon: Hold on with that galaxy for a minute, I got some puppies to rescue from hippie pet-painting art aficionados that didn't check the chirality of their organic paint.

[Xilizhra]

Luckily, my values are largely consistent with Paragon to begin with.

[ThePwener]

sbvera13 wrote...

ME1 system: Sacrifice combat ability for the ability to persuade people and get what you want.

Funny, since I just did a few playthroughs and maxed both stats by filling the bars.

[sbvera13]

Well, to be fair, you don't have to sacrifice MUCH combat ability. It wasn't be most well-thought out character system, after all.

[Veex]

Takes some prior knowledge of these compulsions to avoid them, sadly. I think Mass Effect 2 suffers from having its choices be significant (the squadmate quarrels in particular) because it allows you to meta game out of them.

Pavlov's poor dog!

[ThePwener]

Veex wrote...

Pavlov's poor dog!

The dog? He got fed for drooling all over the place! It's Watson's experiment with baby Albert that you need to feel sorry for.

[KotorEffect3]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I just do what I think is best and that happens to be Renegade. I play Renegade, it doesn't play me.

Every playthrough?

[Golden Owl]

sbvera13 wrote...

Well, to be fair, you don't have to sacrifice MUCH combat ability. It wasn't be most well-thought out character system, after all.

I just concentrated Sheps abilities...as I do in ME2 also...I personally preferred the ME1 system in regards to Para/Ren.

[inversevideo]

I've been thinking about this for a few months now.
When I played ME1, my characters tended to be paragon, at worst paragade.

But after my first Jack / Miranda fight I quickly figured out that I needed a certain amount of renegade points to resolve the issue.

Now my Shepards tend to be Rengon ( enough renegade to resolve the Jack/ Miranda fight, enough Paragon to resolve the Tali/Legion fight), and for the most part it feels natural, and for the most part I do what seems right.

But, in order to have sufficient renegade points, to tell Jack & Miranda to STFU, I meta-game Zaeed's loyalty mission. I deliberately take the most renegade option, which bothered me a lot initially, but now, not so much.

This goes to Admiral Cheezes point, I found I could perfectly rationalize letting the workers burn. I did not set the fire, I was locked into a battle with a company of mercs looking to kill me, I already was dead once, did not care to go back, I needed to get back to saving the galaxy, not traipsing through an unfamiliar factory, through explosions and merc, to look for civilians.

You see it right? What the Admiral was saying? I enjoy the renegon play, seems natural now, and fun. But there was a time I would not have made those choices. And the more extreme choice, the Zaeed mission, was soley to get the cookie. Bioware, knowingly or not is playing us.
This is indoctrination! Or at least as close to indoctrination as we can get.

[Weskerr]

You're right that this point is interesting from a human psychology perspective. Although your comment that it's a brilliant system because it has this effect on players is innacurate. There's nothing brilliant about the Paragon/Renegade system. It just shows that the mind is beholden to suggestion and, as you said, reinforcement and that people are not in complete rational control of their thoughts and actions. People are far more irrational than they would like to think.
"Men are more moral than they think and far more immoral than they can imagine."  -Sigmund Freud

I think the Mass Effect games would be better if the Paragon/Renegade system and the dialogue wheel were removed and replaced with a dialogue system like The Witcher 2. There's zero - or nearly zero - psychological suggestion in that type of system.

[RPGamer13]

I don't do it for the points that you describe as scratch. I do it because I like the results. If I wasn't so one-sided, then I'd make impulsive choices that would lead me down a central path and miss out on the choices where you need a certain amount of points and I'd be okay with that.

But renegade fits me so well that I go down that path all the way.

[AdmiralCheez]

Weskerr wrote...

You're right that this point is interesting from a human psychology perspective. Although your comment that it's a brilliant system because it has this effect on players is innacurate. There's nothing brilliant about the Paragon/Renegade system. It just shows that the mind is beholden to suggestion and, as you said, reinforcement and that people are not in complete rational control of their thoughts and actions. People are far more irrational than they would like to think.
"Men are more moral than they think and far more immoral than they can imagine."  -Sigmund Freud

I think the Mass Effect games would be better if the Paragon/Renegade system and the dialogue wheel were removed and replaced with a dialogue system like The Witcher 2. There's zero - or nearly zero - psychological suggestion in that type of system.

Oh, I doubt this sort of thing was intentional.  BW was probably still stuck in the KOTOR mentality.

DEM SITH LORDS.

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

Once I hacked a save as the game started and gave myself a ton of renegade and paragon points - enough to choose every "renegade/paragon" actions.

I was free to choose whatever option I wanted. Usually I chose neutral since it felt more natural.

And I had a lot more fun.

[Escapulario100]

Just roleplay and problem solve... well, almost

[Nashiktal]

Escapulario100 wrote...

Just roleplay and problem solve... well, almost

While restrictions can at times enhance roleplaying, the ME system doesn't really encourage roleplaying. Then again, bioware has never really encouraged balanced characters. Its always been follow one path at a time sort of thing.

I hate it, its annoying, but bioware just doesn't seem to want to abandon the morality bar yet.

[Nashiktal]

I know this game is brought up a lot, but Alpha Protocol did fine without a morality meter, and rewarded you more for keeping track of and manipulating characters throughout the game. Remember favors you can call on, letting devils live... for now for the greater good (or profit), strengthening (yet weakening) organizations to help you take down the big organization, and even *spoiler alert!!!!!* Joining, or even taking over the big bad organization. *spoiler!!!!*

The mass effects currents system isn't really that fun. All doesn't make much sense. tying morality to speech ability, and yet letting you do whatever interrupt you wish without consequences. Not to mention that hidden formula the background that might punish you EVEN if you have been following a certain morality for the whole game.

With how crazy complicated the whole system is (yet crazy simple in how it restricts you) I just don't see it purposely doing what you say cheeze.

[Sebby]

I try to ignore the system as much as I can but I always have those nagging thoughts on the back of my head on whether or not I have enough magic points for the persuasion options with Morinth, the Jack/Miranda fight or the Legion/Tali one.

[KotorEffect3]

Seboist wrote...

I try to ignore the system as much as I can but I always have those nagging thoughts on the back of my head on whether or not I have enough magic points for the persuasion options with Morinth, the Jack/Miranda fight or the Legion/Tali one.

There should be a different way to get the persuasion options, to be honest I actualy like the friendship/rivalry system of DA 2 I think that could work in resolving  squad conflicts (I like the idea of squad conflicts btw)

[Dariuszp]

1. Your whole argumentation is bad. I disagree with you 100%.
2. Whole renegade system is bad by design and be execution.
3. I don't want to explain it again. Read my post here:

http://social.biowar...3557/22#8292993

Thank you